Topless/Nude Beach?

[Created2Write]

C2W

I always enjoy your posts. I am not about to challenge anything you wrote, but your recent post did provoke me to do some thinking. Thanks.

Behind much of my thinking there are some deeply held biblical principles, as I understand them. Firstly God’s ‘very good’ was pronounced upon a couple whose humanity was sexual to the core. By this I mean they were told to procreate, ‘to fill the earth,’ created in two genders and each given the biological means to accomplish that mandate. From that I conclude that our sexuality is an inherent part of our God designed humanity and therefore should never be viewed within a negative frame of reference.

I agree with this.

Sin introduced shame, amongst all else that is negative. The shame many people experience from their bodies, and especially regarding their sexual components, is a fallen reality, not a divinely mandated one. God’s clothing of the couple in Genesis is about salvation, not modesty or clothing.

I'm not sure where you get the salvation part...I don't see anything in Genesis 3 that talks about the clothing being about salvation. I see it being about their shame.

In the NT we see two amazing affirmations of the goodness of the human body. The incarnation, whereby Jesus was not diminished in his divinity, attests to the fact that God has never abandoned his blueprint we see in Genesis – the “very good” still holds. Secondly, our bodies being God’s temple again affirms God perspective on His beloved creation. So much so we get bodies with greatly expanded capacities at the return of Jesus.

Okay. I don't disagree with this, and I have never argued that our sexuality itself is a bad/evil/negative thing. My only argument has been using that goodness of our sexuality as an excuse to therefore be more sexual than we should.

That contrasts with the Greek thinking prevalent in NT times. Greek teaching regarded the neck as the necessary separation of the higher functions of intellect within the head from the degraded lower nature of the body. For the Greeks there was absolutely no way the divine could cohabit the physical without compromise. Thus NT teaching about us being God’s temple, about all of the body having important contributions to make, and most amazingly a husband loving his wife as his own body were revolutionary concepts in NT times.

I see the following as representing sub standard Christian values:

a) Concepts such as ‘dirty’ disgusting’ ‘filthy’ used as descriptions of sexuality

I have seen this as well, and I don't like it either. A human's God given sexuality is, as the Bible says, a beautiful thing. Or at least, it was intended to be.

b) Deeming shame as virtuous when, for example, we would praise a person feeling ‘ashamed’ at being naked. Being ashamed at some inappropriate activity is fine, but we must see that as a sin based shame, something is wrong. Conversely, nudists who are unashamed by the nakedness in a suitable setting have no reason to see why all the embarrassment should be deemed healthy and ‘right’. This is not suggesting nudity as evidence of some inner renewal of body image and values (although I probably see it that way) but more as an attestation of a glimpse of divine intent.

The Bible says there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. I am not an advocate of condemnation, nor do I think we should ashamed over the healthy, sinless sexuality God has given us. My only issue is when such sexuality is promoted outside of the marital union. God didn't encourage Adam and Eve to be nudists, He didn't strip them of the leaves they'd sewn together. No, He clothed them in tunics of skin which, I'm sure, covered much more than the leaves did. Did He originally intend for us to be clothed? Perhaps not. Is our sexuality an evil thing? No. Not at all. But are we to promote casual nudity and sexuality simply because what God designed is a good thing? No. Jesus didn't come to earth as a nudist, and I have yet to see any verse in the Bible that even hints that being naked with someone other than our spouse is a good thing.

As a baby my parents bathed me. As a young girl my parents clothed me. As an adult woman is it appropriate to walk around naked in front of my father?

c) When, within marriage, sex is viewed as little more than obligation, and a couple are reticent about nakedness with each other then biblical standards have been all but abandoned.

I agree.

d) An intense sense of privacy prevails in modern cultures. We must not see that as normative. Privacy as we know it will not exist after our resurrection. It will be “They will on earth, as it is in heaven’.

That’s a précis of my biblical stance on this issue.

John

There is a massive difference between accepting healthy sexuality and promoting it as being between a man and wife, and saying that our culture should accept casual nudity. Are nudists sinning by being nudists? I don't know. There's no verse in the Bible that directly says so. But there are plenty of verses that outline what I consider to be the standard of how we are to live. This world distorts the view of sex and, thus, the human body. In my city there is this van that a man drives that has a naked women painted on it. The painting is well done, but the sight of it disgusts me and not because of the nakedness, but because of the casual acceptance of the nakedness. As though it's not big deal. It IS a big deal. The naked body is beautiful, but from what I have seen in scripture, only when between a husband and wife. Otherwise looking at a human with lust wouldn't be sinful. Yes, I do believe we can look at nakedness without lusting. But I don't think we should put ourselves in front of such temptation. We should flee temptation, the Bible says. Accepting casual nudity/sexuality is not fleeing temptation, imo.

 

[MessianicMommy]

FKK is a "no way" for me. However, from what I understand, most all our beaches allow for topless sunbathing regardless. That was not allowed at the beach in the city where we lived for 3 yrs in Spain. The women were very particular about not allowing the British, French or German women to do that. That was A-OK towards Mallorca or Barcelona, but certainly not in our end of la Costa del Sol.

There are parks not far from us that allow for FKK (full on nude) sunbathing and whatnot. I have no desire to go, but I have heard from some reliable sources that they are not always well marked and you might stumble upon one unintentionally.

From what my MIL has said, her MIL (DFIL's mom) was a big believer in FKK. Any time they went sunbathing or swimming, off went all the clothes and she did whatever she did. The way MIL talks, I would think she was a bit uncomfortable with it. Either way, it was around children (DH for one) and no one thought a thing of it here.

I haven't been on a vacation since my honeymoon, so no to the first or second question. lol

 

[iambren]

Ok......what is FKK?

 

[FaithPrevails]

Ok......what is FKK?

According to urban dictionary:

FKK is an abbreviation that is found in several european languages, it originaly stems from german and is short for "frei-körper-kultur" (free body culture). it can be found on signs at beaches and lakes, tellng the visitor that he is going to enter an area where it is common to swim and sunbath nude.

 

[Archivist]

The Bible says there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. I am not an advocate of condemnation, nor do I think we should ashamed over the healthy, sinless sexuality God has given us. My only issue is when such sexuality is promoted outside of the marital union. God didn't encourage Adam and Eve to be nudists, He didn't strip them of the leaves they'd sewn together. No, He clothed them in tunics of skin which, I'm sure, covered much more than the leaves did. Did He originally intend for us to be clothed? Perhaps not. Is our sexuality an evil thing? No. Not at all. But are we to promote casual nudity and sexuality simply because what God designed is a good thing? No. Jesus didn't come to earth as a nudist, and I have yet to see any verse in the Bible that even hints that being naked with someone other than our spouse is a good thing.

The OP referenced both topless and nude beaches. Would you see a difference between a beach where everyone was topless vs. a beach where everyone was nude? I do think that women should be permitted to go topless anyplace that men can go topless as I see our attitude towards the female breast is strictly a cultural thing. There is certainly nothing in the allegory of the Garden indicating that God covered Eve's breasts while allowing Adam to go topless.

 

[JaneFW]

As someone who has gone topless - a long, long time ago - at a few beaches in Europe, I have to say that when you do go to that kind of beach, really nobody pays any attention. You have the same body parts as all of the other women, differing only a little according to your body shape, and whether you have been there long enough to acquire a tan. Maybe some men were titillated, I don't know, but nobody got up to gawk at any of the women, and in fact a woman with a top on would probably be gawked at more.

I don't think I would be comfortable with nudity. As I have gotten older, the societal messages have gotten to me. I know I'm far from perfect, and I guess that I don't even want to see myself naked, let alone have anyone else (by which I mean my husband) see me naked. I couldn't imagine going to a topless beach with my h, but there are reasons for that that are about his reactions, rather than mine.

 

[JaneFW]

The OP referenced both topless and nude beaches. Would you see a difference between a beach where everyone was topless vs. a beach where everyone was nude? I do think that women should be permitted to go topless anyplace that men can go topless as I see our attitude towards the female breast is strictly a cultural thing. There is certainly nothing in the allegory of the Garden indicating that God covered Eve's breasts while allowing Adam to go topless.

Breasts have been totally sexualised for the past .. several hundred years at least, but more so of course in the past 50 years. So there is no comparison between a topless man and a topless woman.

 

[FaithPrevails]

The OP referenced both topless and nude beaches. Would you see a difference between a beach where everyone was topless vs. a beach where everyone was nude? I do think that women should be permitted to go topless anyplace that men can go topless as I see our attitude towards the female breast is strictly a cultural thing. There is certainly nothing in the allegory of the Garden indicating that God covered Eve's breasts while allowing Adam to go topless.

That's just the problem, though - our culture has sexualized the female anatomy. While I don't disagree that it should be no different than a man going topless, it is...and I don't think society is going to do a 180 on the matter.

This totally sparked a memory from when I was a kid, btw. My dad usually went shirtless at home and wore cut-off jean shorts. So, I always wanted to go shirtless and wear cut-off jean shorts, too. (I was quite a tomboy lol).

 

[Created2Write]

Exactly Faith. I agree. It is a sad thing that the human body has been so sexualized, but it is an unfortunate truth. Maybe for some people the sexuality behind it can be separated but I doubt that's the case for most people, otherwise there wouldn't be so much demand for sexuality and nudity in movies.

 

[JaneFW]

Has anyone gone to a topless or nude beach with their spouse?

I went to several topless beaches in Europe with my first husband.

Has it caused any trouble in your marriage?

No, my first husband loved it.

I haven't gone with my second husband, and it probably would cause trouble because he would not like men to see me topless - particularly as he objected in the past when I wore low cut tops (which I no longer do, for that reason); and it would trouble me because of his history with pornography because he obviously does sexualize nudity and semi-nudity.

 

[iambren]

FKK, I didn't know that. Thanks Faith.

Maybe to be fair to both genders we should only frequent the bottomless-only beaches.

 

[united4Peace]

Has anyone gone to a topless or nude beach with their spouse?

Has it caused any trouble in your marriage?

Nope though I did go swimming topless by accident (have never gone on a diving board since)

Yup...it did. We werent married at the time but instead of consoling me that's all he did was laugh as he found it amusing....Ive never forgiven him to this day....

 

[FaithPrevails]

The images this conjures gives me the urge to and at the same time. lol

Plus, how would a person ever get rid of all of the sand? :o

 

[FaithPrevails]

Nope though I did go swimming topless by accident (have never gone on a diving board since)

Yup...it did. We werent married at the time but instead of consoling me that's all he did was laugh as he found it amusing....Ive never forgiven him to this day....

Oh, bless your heart! I would have died of embarrassment! lol

 

[Created2Write]

Me too! That would have been horrifying! lol.

 

[Johnnz]

I'm not sure where you get the salvation part...I don't see anything in Genesis 3 that talks about the clothing being about salvation. I see it

The Bible says there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. I am not an advocate of condemnation, nor do I think we should ashamed over the healthy, sinless sexuality God has given us. My only issue is when such sexuality is promoted outside of the marital union. God didn't encourage Adam and Eve to be nudists, He didn't strip them of the leaves they'd sewn together. No, He clothed them in tunics of skin which, I'm sure, covered much more than the leaves did. Did He originally intend for us to be clothed? Perhaps not. Is our sexuality an evil thing? No. Not at all. But are we to promote casual nudity and sexuality simply because what God designed is a good thing? No. Jesus didn't come to earth as a nudist, and I have yet to see any verse in the Bible that even hints that being naked with someone other than our spouse is a good thing.

Yes, I do believe we can look at nakedness without lusting. But I don't think we should put ourselves in front of such temptation. We should flee temptation, the Bible says. Accepting casual nudity/sexuality is not fleeing temptation, imo.

Shame is a consequence of sin. The early Genesis story begins the great themes of the scriptural story - creation, sin, redemption, re-creation. God's clothing of the couple was a Divine initiative, illustrative (a type) of the covering of our sins requiring a sacrifice, ultimately realised in Christ. There is a similar theme with Cain and Abel; it was Abel's animal offering that was accepted by God.

The temptation of the human body exists, clothed or otherwise. In our society we have a situation where the unfamiliarity of the human body is exploited leading to many significant issues that may be exacerbated by our attitudes. Some on the thread have commented on the difference experiences of being in Europe, which support what I believe. The sight of a naked body was more a 'so what' that an 'Ohh Ahh'. To me that is far healthier and more consistent with what I believe as a Christian.

John
NZ

 

[JaneFW]

Shame is a consequence of sin. The early Genesis story begins the great themes of the scriptural story - creation, sin, redemption, re-creation. God's clothing of the couple was a Divine initiative, illustrative (a type) of the covering of our sins requiring a sacrifice, ultimately realised in Christ. There is a similar theme with Cain and Abel; it was Abel's animal offering that was accepted by God.

The temptation of the human body exists, clothed or otherwise. In our society we have a situation where the unfamiliarity of the human body is exploited leading to many significant issues that may be exacerbated by our attitudes. Some on the thread have commented on the difference experiences of being in Europe, which support what I believe. The sight of a naked body was more a 'so what' that an 'Ohh Ahh'. To me that is far healthier and more consistent with what I believe as a Christian.

John
NZ

Do you really think that there is "unfamiliarity" with the human body? I disagree with that. I think that the problem is with the sexualizing of the human body. I don't know whether you are familar with the child pageants here in the US? Small children, starting as young as 2, are 'tarted up' - and I'm using that term correctly - and made to parade, and then they are selected according to how .. I don't know how to address it!! Perhaps how adult they like, or how precocious, or how ... sexy?? I find it flippin' terrifying. There is a tv show called "Toddlers and Tiaras" which shows these young girls in all of their glory. Poor things. So sad. So, if you start sexualizing a human being at 2, with a body that is not even sexual (or should not be), what happens by the time she is 16 because - make no mistake - even though some magazines print photos of men in shorts or swimwear, there is no way that males are sexualized as much as females are.

But women's bodies are available everywhere - in America at least. At the check out in the store, there are multiple magazines - not direct porn, but Cosmo, Vanity Fair, Vogue. What is on the front of those magazines but a scantily clad woman? Shape magazine, and other health magzines - scantily clad woman. There is no mystery. By the time that he is 10, I'm sure that most boys have seen a naked woman, whether in a magazine or on the internet. True, it's verboten to look, I get that, but I don't see how you could desensitize because I mean who lives on nude/topless beaches? Nobody. On those beaches in Europe, there were no children, just adults. We already know what a naked body looks like. I wouldn't take a child there, no.

 

[Created2Write]

Do you really think that there is "unfamiliarity" with the human body? I disagree with that. I think that the problem is with the sexualizing of the human body. I don't know whether you are familar with the child pageants here in the US? Small children, starting as young as 2, are 'tarted up' - and I'm using that term correctly - and made to parade, and then they are selected according to how .. I don't know how to address it!! Perhaps how adult they like, or how precocious, or how ... sexy?? I find it flippin' terrifying. There is a tv show called "Toddlers and Tiaras" which shows these young girls in all of their glory. Poor things. So sad. So, if you start sexualizing a human being at 2, with a body that is not even sexual (or should not be), what happens by the time she is 16 because - make no mistake - even though some magazines print photos of men in shorts or swimwear, there is no way that males are sexualized as much as females are.

^This. This is what I'm getting at. And I have seen bits and pieces of that show and it is horrifying. Make up, hair, dresses...the body is indeed being sexualized at too young an age. And it is that sexualizing that distorts how God intended things to be.

John, I have no problem agreeing that the naked human body was never meant to be covered. I also have no trouble agreeing that the naked human body is a beautiful thing, and that our sexuality is God given and meant to be enjoyed.......

within marriage. You still have not said anything to remotely convince me that accepting nakedness in everyday life is appropriate. I just don't believe that, as Christians, it's something we should be okay with. And, frankly, I think seeing naked bodies as "not a big deal" does an injustice to the way God intended things to be. If, when my husband and I got married and he saw me naked for the first time, his reaction was "Oh. No big deal" I would have been devastated. Seeing him naked for the first time was very exciting...it was very new and unfamiliar...and it made our love life hot! But, unfortunately, mine was not the first naked woman he'd seen or been intimate with before and that, in and of itself, was painful enough. So much so that I still wonder if my body compares with others he has seen. If he had seen so many that the sight of a naked woman was no big deal to him, I probably wouldn't have married him.

But women's bodies are available everywhere - in America at least. At the check out in the store, there are multiple magazines - not direct porn, but Cosmo, Vanity Fair, Vogue. What is on the front of those magazines but a scantily clad woman? Shape magazine, and other health magzines - scantily clad woman. There is no mystery. By the time that he is 10, I'm sure that most boys have seen a naked woman, whether in a magazine or on the internet. True, it's verboten to look, I get that, but I don't see how you could desensitize because I mean who lives on nude/topless beaches? Nobody. On those beaches in Europe, there were no children, just adults. We already know what a naked body looks like. I wouldn't take a child there, no.

Yup. I don't think it's possible to desensitize either. Not while sin exists in this world which, imo, is why God clothed Adam and Eve. Maybe there was some other spiritual meaning behind it, but that's not listed in Genesis.

 

[Archivist]

That's just the problem, though - our culture has sexualized the female anatomy. While I don't disagree that it should be no different than a man going topless, it is...and I don't think society is going to do a 180 on the matter.

This totally sparked a memory from when I was a kid, btw. My dad usually went shirtless at home and wore cut-off jean shorts. So, I always wanted to go shirtless and wear cut-off jean shorts, too. (I was quite a tomboy lol).

Yes, but if that is the case how do we ever effect change? One of the posts earlier in this thread stated "As someone who has gone topless - a long, long time ago - at a few beaches in Europe, I have to say that when you do go to that kind of beach, really nobody pays any attention." If topless beaches for both sexes became the norm in America wouldn't that become the case here? Yes, it might take some time but eventually it would happen.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Yes, but if that is the case how do we ever effect change? One of the posts earlier in this thread stated "As someone who has gone topless - a long, long time ago - at a few beaches in Europe, I have to say that when you do go to that kind of beach, really nobody pays any attention." If topless beaches for both sexes became the norm in America wouldn't that become the case here? Yes, it might take some time but eventually it would happen.

How do you know nobody pays attention? People pay attention when your fully clothed in a potato sack dress, so what makes you think they won't pay attention when your nude?