Topless Danes

[Nadiine]

The Europeans realize the human body is not to be feared, and obviously a European man can see a pair of breasts without thinking dirty thoughts...so perhaps European men are more "Godly" than American men.

For Pete's sake breasts are feeding a baby not sexual objects.

tell that to men who frequent topless bars. They have whole magazines dedicated to female breasts only.

Please tell me you aren't serious with that statement

Frankly I expect you to be in favor of this, it's no big surprise.

 

[Archivist]

No, this is NOT an issue of "that's your opinion, but mine is different as a Christian".
This is not a Christian liberty to go partially or fully nude in public, it's wrong. It's immodest, it leads others to lust and/or draws their attn. right TO THE BODY ITSELF as a focal point.
Paul specifically calls them to draw attn. AWAY from body parts & AWAY from the focus of the outward self - either by nudity (ie. being modest/having propriety as a Christian) and by way of gaudy, expensive jewlery & clothing - again, it's to take focus OFF self and onto what matters more; the spiritual.
The WORLD is who focuses on the temporal & outward, Christian's should have less of one.

Showing more of the nude body for a female is an enticement for men and is NOT MODEST, it's just the opposite.
Sorry, this isn't mere opinion - we don't live w/ hardcore, remote pygmy tribes in Africa - this dress code (lack thereof) was not a way of life until much later after rebellion and immorality started setting in - this is NOT what was custom in civilized cultures unless they grew predominantly immoral or pagan.
It's nothing associated or linked with Christianity or proper Christian conduct - either currently or historically.

I completely disagree with your post points, and base it on written scripture and God's principles directly implied thru them.

You also made the same mistake of using lust of NOT SEEING BREASTS as a point.. you just shot yourself in the foot as I stated before, what you're saying is, "men lust after women no matter what they wear or don't wear, so just have her take her top off, what difference will it make"?
What kind of argument is that? If males lust if she wears jeans & a regular top, how does taking OFF her top make them lust LESS or move their attn. AWAY from lust???

Reason would tell us that covering up MORE hinders lust more by your statement --- so how it is moral for a Christian to take off even MORE clothing when covering up MORE would hinder lust? Namely when God's word tells us to employ MODESTY???
I have a real hard time understanding how going topless is "modesty" and helping to curb lust.

(all this aside, sunbathing is harmful, it baffles me why people even sunbathe anymore)

Essentially what you are saying is "it is wrong becasue I say so." There is no scripture that specifically supports what you are saying and you fail to address the fact that where women commonly go topless, exposed breasts are not an issue. I mentioned Ethiopia many posts ago. The Ethiopian Church is one of the oldest in Christendom, but women go topless there and it isn't seen as being anything out of the norm.

 

[Archivist]

tell that to men who frequent topless bars. They have whole magazines dedicated to female breasts only.

Please tell me you aren't serious with that statement

Frankly I expect you to be in favor of this, it's no big surprise.

Men frequent topless clubs and read magazines because female breasts are kept hidden. You want to put such places and publications out of business--allow women to go topless anyplace men can go topless.

 

[Nadiine]

The Europeans realize the human body is not to be feared, and obviously a European man can see a pair of breasts without thinking dirty thoughts...so perhaps European men are more "Godly" than American men.

For Pete's sake breasts are feeding a baby not sexual objects.

Now it's "FEAR".... well this is about the 2nd or 3rd strawman I've seen so far.
Someone else injected "DIRTY" earlier... no one said any such thing.

This is a common attack ploy - just like people who are anti gay are automatically labeled "homophobes"... in other words, the minute you're morally against something, YOU HAVE TO BE IN FEAR of it... that's totally false.
GOD is against adultery - is he an Adulter-a-Phobe?
No. It's wrong, He's against it. Sex and the naked body are wonderful and beautiful..... WHEN PROPERLY TREATED AND USED WITHIN GOD'S WILL AND PLAN ONLY.

Go outside His principles, and it's no longer fine, it turns into sin.

No one fears or calls the naked body "dirty" - it's HOW sex and the body are used that make it right or wrong.

So you can stop with the strawmen and reply appropriately to what we HAVE said, not what you add in by bias; making false implications.

I'm not "uptight" and people who are against women going topless aren't "uptight", they're morally modest.
Real simple.

 

[Nadiine]

Essentially what you are saying is "it is wrong becasue I say so." There is no scripture that specifically supports what you are saying and you fail to address the fact that where women commonly go topless, exposed breasts are not an issue. I mentioned Ethiopia many posts ago. The Ethiopian Church is one of the oldest in Christendom, but women go topless there and it isn't seen as being anything out of the norm.

and........... Back to Ethiopia............
We're reaching again.

We've given scripture, if that isn't enough for you, then there's nothing else to add is there? I stand by what we're told and the principles of modesty by Paul.
Since toplessness wasn't the custom at the time of Paul's writing, you can be assured that NUDITY WASN'T LINKED TO HIS REPRESENTATION OF MODESTY.

Does that matter to you? Seemingly NOT since we brought this important fact up before to no avail.

Again , CHRISTIANS DO NOT EVALUATE THEIR MORALITY BY WORLDLY CULTURES. - WE DON'T JUDGE OURSELES BY WHAT OTHER CULTURES DO OR DON'T DO.
CHRISTIANS LIVE BY GODS STANDARDS ALONE - IRREGARDLESS OF WHAT THE WORLD DOES.
Your whole focus is on other cultures and people and what everyone else does - if they all jumped off a bridge, would you jump along with them too?
"Well, they all do it... it can't be wrong"

CHRISTIANS ARE SET APART TO GOD AND HIS MORAL STANDARDS ALONE, not the standards of the nations that surround them.

I'd love to be able to elaborate my views on all this & why certain people are consistently ok with this kinda stuff and so many other moral [sins] spelled out in scripture, but I'll save myself the report.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I would assume it is because a woman's chest is considered more arousing for a man than a man's chest is for a woman.

You're right, of course... but when I'm at the beach, I like seeing a nice set of pecs... built, but not Schwarzenegger built... and no hair, either.

 

[LightHorseman]

tell that to men who frequent topless bars. They have whole magazines dedicated to female breasts only.

Please tell me you aren't serious with that statement

Frankly I expect you to be in favor of this, it's no big surprise.

sure, men find breasts attractive. so what? Men find faces attractive too. Just because you find something attractive doesn't mean it needs to be covered up and hidden, does it?

 

[LightHorseman]

CHRISTIANS LIVE BY GODS STANDARDS ALONE - IRREGARDLESS OF WHAT THE WORLD DOES.

I'm a Christian. i disagree with you. I'd appreciate it if you didn't take it upon yourself to make statements for all the rest of us.

Why can't you just tell us how YOU decide whats right for YOU and let OTHERS make the decision thats right for THEM?

 

[The Lady Kate]

sure, men find breasts attractive. so what? Men find faces attractive too. Just because you find something attractive doesn't mean it needs to be covered up and hidden, does it?

It would be quite the challenge to find a body part on a female that's not sexually arousing to someone out there... Makes you wonder if doctors secretly swap X-rays to "check out" ladies' spleens.

 

[LightHorseman]

It would be quite the challenge to find a body part on a female that's not sexually arousing to someone out there... Makes you wonder if doctors secretly swap X-rays to "check out" ladies' spleens.

QFT. So, Hijabs for all women, obviously the only reasonable answer.

Or, I guess, we could tell everyone its OK to wear what they want, and to respect everyone elses choice? Nah... that could NEVER work, surely?

 

[catlover]

I'm a Christian. i disagree with you. I'd appreciate it if you didn't take it upon yourself to make statements for all the rest of us.

Why can't you just tell us how YOU decide whats right for YOU and let OTHERS make the decision thats right for THEM?

It's American ethnocentrism basically American culture is"Godly" because it adheres to Puritan values. It's a shame The Europeans didn't keep them.

Nadine I am not surprised you equate America's culture with "Godly" values. Unfortunately, most Evangelicals believe America and American values are the center of the world.

Again it's not my fault American men lust after breasts which are on a woman's body to feed a baby. Not feed a man's lust.

 

[Nadiine]

It's American ethnocentrism basically American culture is"Godly" because it adheres to Puritan values. It's a shame The Europeans didn't keep them.

Nadine I am not surprised you equate America's culture with "Godly" values. Unfortunately, most Evangelicals believe America and American values are the center of the world.

Again it's not my fault American men lust after breasts which are on a woman's body to feed a baby. Not feed a man's lust.

It isn't JUST American lust.... but you're free to drink any koolaide.

I'd add once AGAIN that Paul taught MODESTY in apparel - not immodesty, not 1/2 nudity or whole nudity.
At the time Paul wrote his epistles, WAS TOPLESSNESS COMMON IN ISRAELI CULTURE? NO it was not. So obviously he is not including topless females in his guideline for dress and "proprietal" appearance

no it was not. It came centuries LATER.

 

[Nadiine]

Do we follow GOD or CULTURES AROUND US?

I keep seeing this over and over , "but they go topless here or there"... so what! They can nude for all I give a poop. It doesn't make it right.

And Amsterdam has legal street drugs, Prostitution is legal and open in Amsterdam, Canada offers legalized heroine rooms so they shoot up correctly, abortion/partial birth abortion is legal, homosexual marrige is legal in some countries/states....

Since when does that dictate what's acceptable or moral in God's eyes?

You can tell me that every country in the world has legal toplessness for females and I'll give you the same reply due to GOD'S WORD. I don't live by the world's standards - no Christian should.

It seems to me that people are preferring to watch other people & judge morality by what the world around them does; God specified to His people NOT to do what the gentiles around them were doing; not to practice it, not to worship like them or copy them -
popular or not.
God had separate standards for them then, and He has separate moral standards for us TODAY -

We're called OUT of the world, not to look around us and say "hey, they're going nude over there, why can't we?". "hey, they have gay marriage there, why don't we?". "hey, they're dropping the legal drinking age to 16 there, why don't we?"

Anyone calling themself a Christian and living by that sort of ethic (watching the world and following it's moral trends) is either backslidden completely or doesn't actually know the Lord at all.

 

[Archivist]

and........... Back to Ethiopia............We're reaching again.

No, it isn't "reaching." You haven't answered my question: The Ethiopian Church is one of the oldest in Christendom (I think that it is the 2nd oldest). If allowing women to go topless is as clearly spelled out in Scripture as you claim WHY WAS IT NEVER CONDEMNED BY THE ETHIOPIAN CHURCH?????

We've given scripture, if that isn't enough for you, then there's nothing else to add is there?

And the Scripture that you have offered does not apply.

I stand by what we're told and the principles of modesty by Paul.

Once again, Paul wrote the following: “Women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes.”

PAUL CLEARLY DEFINES MODESTY AS EARING TOO MUCH ADORNMENT.

Since toplessness wasn't the custom at the time of Paul's writing, you can be assured that NUDITY WASN'T LINKED TO HIS REPRESENTATION OF MODESTY.

Actually it was fairly common in Roman times.

Does that matter to you? Seemingly NOT since we brought this important fact up before to no avail.

This isn't fact. It is your opinion, nothing more.

Again , CHRISTIANS DO NOT EVALUATE THEIR MORALITY BY WORLDLY CULTURES. - WE DON'T JUDGE OURSELES BY WHAT OTHER CULTURES DO OR DON'T DO.

Nor do we evaluate our morality by YOUR OPINION.

CHRISTIANS LIVE BY GODS STANDARDS ALONE - IRREGARDLESS OF WHAT THE WORLD DOES

And this is an issue that Scripture DOES NOT ADDRESS.

Your whole focus is on other cultures and people and what everyone else does

No, the focus here is on women having the same rights as men.

if they all jumped off a bridge, would you jump along with them too? "Well, they all do it... it can't be wrong"

Did you read the OP? This thread has nothing to do with jumping off bridges. If you want to start a thread on that topic I suggest that you do so.

CHRISTIANS ARE SET APART TO GOD AND HIS MORAL STANDARDS ALONE, not the standards of the nations that surround them.

AND, ONCE AGAIN, THIS IS A CULTURAL MATTER, NOT SOMETHING THAT IS ADDRESS IN SCRIPTURE.

I'd love to be able to elaborate my views on all this & why certain people are consistently ok with this kinda stuff and so many other moral [sins] spelled out in scripture, but I'll save myself the report.

Actually you have done a pretty good job of elaborating your views on thsi subject. However, what you have said remains nothing more than YOUR OPINION.

 

[Archivist]

It isn't JUST American lust.... but you're free to drink any koolaide.

Then why aren't breasts a big deal in Africa or most of Europe or anyplace else where women can go about topless?

I'd add once AGAIN that Paul taught MODESTY in apparel - not immodesty, not 1/2 nudity or whole nudity.

And, AGAIN, what Paul wrote about modesty dealt with overadornment.

At the time Paul wrote his epistles, WAS TOPLESSNESS COMMON IN ISRAELI CULTURE? NO it was not. So obviously he is not including topless females in his guideline for dress and "proprietal" appearanceno it was not. It came centuries LATER.

I'm still waiting for you to prove this.

 

[Archivist]

Do we follow GOD or CULTURES AROUND US?

I keep seeing this over and over , "but they go topless here or there"... so what! They can nude for all I give a poop. It doesn't make it right.

And Amsterdam has legal street drugs, Prostitution is legal and open in Amsterdam, Canada offers legalized heroine rooms so they shoot up correctly, abortion/partial birth abortion is legal, homosexual marrige is legal in some countries/states....

Since when does that dictate what's acceptable or moral in God's eyes?

You can tell me that every country in the world has legal toplessness for females and I'll give you the same reply due to GOD'S WORD. I don't live by the world's standards - no Christian should.

It seems to me that people are preferring to watch other people & judge morality by what the world around them does; God specified to His people NOT to do what the gentiles around them were doing; not to practice it, not to worship like them or copy them -
popular or not.
God had separate standards for them then, and He has separate moral standards for us TODAY -

We're called OUT of the world, not to look around us and say "hey, they're going nude over there, why can't we?". "hey, they have gay marriage there, why don't we?". "hey, they're dropping the legal drinking age to 16 there, why don't we?"

Anyone calling themself a Christian and living by that sort of ethic (watching the world and following it's moral trends) is either backslidden completely or doesn't actually know the Lord at all.

This thread isn't about the following:

Drugs

Prostitution

Abortion

Homosexual Marriage

The Drinking Age.

What we keep hearing from you is your OPINION of what Scripture says. You haven't offered any proof to support your position.

BTW, are you implying that the Bible mandates a drinking age? You were the one who earlier said that we need to look at what was ahppening in Hebrew culture when the Bible was written, and at that time pretty much everyone other than infants were drinking wine--there was no drinking age.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Im curious as to why so many non believers think they can debate christian philiosiphy and ethics for a christian when they are not one?

 

[Archivist]

Im curious as to why so many non believers think they can debate christian philiosiphy and ethics for a christian when they are not one?

Specifically who--I loked back and only saw two non-Christians posting. I posted the OP and I certainly don't see any reason why they shouldn't be posting.

 

[Nadiine]

No, it isn't "reaching." You haven't answered my question: The Ethiopian Church is one of the oldest in Christendom (I think that it is the 2nd oldest). If allowing women to go topless is as clearly spelled out in Scripture as you claim WHY WAS IT NEVER CONDEMNED BY THE ETHIOPIAN CHURCH?????



And the Scripture that you have offered does not apply.



Once again, Paul wrote the following: “Women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes.”

PAUL CLEARLY DEFINES MODESTY AS EARING TOO MUCH ADORNMENT.



Actually it was fairly common in Roman times.



This isn't fact. It is your opinion, nothing more.



Nor do we evaluate our morality by YOUR OPINION.




And this is an issue that Scripture DOES NOT ADDRESS.



No, the focus here is on women having the same rights as men.



Did you read the OP? This thread has nothing to do with jumping off bridges. If you want to start a thread on that topic I suggest that you do so.



AND, ONCE AGAIN, THIS IS A CULTURAL MATTER, NOT SOMETHING THAT IS ADDRESS IN SCRIPTURE.



Actually you have done a pretty good job of elaborating your views on thsi subject. However, what you have said remains nothing more than YOUR OPINION.

IT IS ADDRESSED IN SCRIPTURE.

Since when is "Modest apparel" deemed TOPLESS?
lol

Good Lord, if topless is "modest", then I'd certainly hate to ask what immodesty might mean to you.

Where do you get "go topless" from this verse:
1 Timothy 2:9
[ Women Instructed ] Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,

In like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

Is topless/half naked implied here at all by these words he used?
It's covered by Paul - culturally and spiritually. Not only to dress modestly with propriety in moderation AS Christians, but not to draw attn. to the body with gaudy jewlery

ps. ROME IS NOT ISRAEL last I checked. And I don't believe it was 'common' except in paganized cultures, not christian ones.

Please show me where Ethiopian churches were topless. And then I'd tell you, do you think possibly they were in the same error other churches were in and Paul was addressing them to DRESS MODESTLY? Or did his teaching not apply to them?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Archivist you are under the impression that non believers are qualified to state what is and isnt ethical within christianity when they arent members of the church?