Topless Danes

[karisma]

Are men not attracted to seeing a woman in a bikini? Are men not attracted to seeing women in a one piece?
What are you advocating for, woman swimming in a sweat suit, to avoid the possible lust factor by a man?

 

[Nadiine]

Are men not attracted to seeing a woman in a bikini? Are men not attracted to seeing women in a one piece?
What are you advocating for, woman swimming in a sweat suit, to avoid the possible lust factor by a man?

You've gone past my point -- so lets say they lust after women in a regular bikini... SO JUST TACK ON GOING TOPLESS and make it even MORE immodest?

I think you kinda defeated a purpose if you're trying to support topless females.

The point being, it leaves even LESS to the imagination than a regular 2 piece bikini. [The beach being one of the main locations for women going topless].

Does going topless HELP modesty? or take away from it?

 

[Nadiine]

Are men not attracted to seeing a woman in a bikini? Are men not attracted to seeing women in a one piece?
What are you advocating for, woman swimming in a sweat suit, to avoid the possible lust factor by a man?

and can you honestly say that seeing that wouldn't sexually arouse you or cause you to focus on a female's body - in a physical, sexual way?

 

[Archivist]

basically, I'm being told to believe this:

Men won't be sexually aroused or interested in women who they see at the beach without tops and a little bikini bottom walking around.

Ok, that makes sense, I also think it fits God's principle of Modesty for Godly women.

Thanks for helping me see the light folks!

If seeing female breasts becomes the everyday norm, then a female chest won't be any more alluring to men then a male chest is to women. This has been shown in cultures where toplessness is the norm.

Will some men still look at a particularly attractive topless women? Yes, of course. Do some some women now look at particularly attractive topless men? Yes, of course. Do people of either sex check out attractive members of the opposite sex even when they are fully clothed? Yes, of course.

And, once again, the Scripture that you quoted in support of modesty for women deals with wearing too much adornment.

 

[karisma]

You've gone past my point -- so lets say they lust after women in a regular bikini... SO JUST TACK ON GOING TOPLESS and make it even MORE immodest?

I think you missed my point. Men are going to lust after women no matter what. It's perfectly normal and natural! It ensures the propagation of our species. You can dress up a woman in a burka and if a male glimpses her ankle he will be sexually aroused! What is taboo becomes even more alluring.

The point being, it leaves even LESS to the imagination than a regular 2 piece bikini. [The beach being one of the main locations for women going topless].

BINGO! I think someone already stated it is often the partially clothed woman that is often the most enticing to men, as they use their imagination as to what's underneath. Putting the body out in the open, with all it's imperfections, is not going to increase the lust factor.

 

[karisma]

and can you honestly say that seeing that wouldn't sexually arouse you or cause you to focus on a female's body - in a physical, sexual way?

I can most DEFINITELY say that seeing naked women is not going to sexually arouse me. Check out my gender symbol.

 

[Chajara]

If seeing female breasts becomes the everyday norm, then a female chest won't be any more alluring to men then a male chest is to women. This has been shown in cultures where toplessness is the norm.

Will some men still look at a particularly attractive topless women? Yes, of course. Do some some women now look at particularly attractive topless men? Yes, of course. Do people of either sex check out attractive members of the opposite sex even when they are fully clothed? Yes, of course.

And, once again, the Scripture that you quoted in support of modesty for women deals with wearing too much adornment.

This is what we've been trying to say, but no one seems to want to believe us. "Leaving little to the imagination" is good when "the imagination" is what's causing it to be so tantalizing in the first place.

I'm not saying that we should all run naked with the deer in the forest, but for Pete's sake, if we'd all just stop going "OH NOES BOOBIES" then no one would care and life would move on. If men grew up seeing topless women on the beach, their breasts would be no different than their hair or body shape or skin tone or eye color. It'd be one of those things men use to asses whether a female is attractive, but it wouldn't be the be-all end-all number one sexual object like it is now.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand, unless you insist on believing that all men are first and foremost horny, horny, horny and only take into account the breasts when choosing a mate. Men are capable of not getting distracted by a pair of jugs and they can focus on other things. (edit to add: Unless of course he's gone his whole life never seeing boobs and being told that those are for sexual purposes and only the husband gets to see them. Then when a guy sees a pair, of COURSE he's going to get all riled up.)

 

[karisma]

If seeing female breasts becomes the everyday norm, then a female chest won't be any more alluring to men then a male chest is to women. This has been shown in cultures where toplessness is the norm.

Will some men still look at a particularly attractive topless women? Yes, of course. Do some some women now look at particularly attractive topless men? Yes, of course. Do people of either sex check out attractive members of the opposite sex even when they are fully clothed? Yes, of course.

And, once again, the Scripture that you quoted in support of modesty for women deals with wearing too much adornment.

Yes! Exactly. Well stated.

 

[Archivist]

Did Adam and Eve realize they were naked ?

Yes.

Did God cover them?

Yes, but there in nothing in Scripture indicating that Eve's breasts were covered. Indeed, some versions of Scripture indicate that only their loins were covered.

Why is that breasts are ok to expose and not sexual organs?

Because the breasts are not primary sexual organs. The following is from Wikipedia:

"A sex organ, or primary sexual characteristic, as narrowly defined, is any of the anatomical parts of the body which are involved in sexual reproduction and constitute the reproductive system in a complex organism; in mammals, these are:

Female: Bartholin's glands, cervix, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], Fallopian tubes, labia, ovaries, Skene's gland, uterus, vagina, vulva
Male: Cowper's glands, epididymis, penis, prepuce, prostate, scrotum, seminal vesicles, testicles."

If a man has to look at breasts and deal with it, lets just go all the way and expose the vagina as well.

No, becaue the vagina is a prisary sexual organ.

Why would we have to stop where YOU determine the line of moral decency is?

Right back at you--why should YOU make the determination?

You dont think its very easy to understand the reason a 19 year old boy would be ok with women walking around topless ?

And if it became commonplace, 19-year-olds generally wouldn't care.

Get back with me in 20 years and lets see how the next couple decades have gone and how you feel then.

I'm 46, and I think that women should have the same rights as do men.

 

[Nadiine]

If seeing female breasts becomes the everyday norm, then a female chest won't be any more alluring to men then a male chest is to women. This has been shown in cultures where toplessness is the norm.

Will some men still look at a particularly attractive topless women? Yes, of course. Do some some women now look at particularly attractive topless men? Yes, of course. Do people of either sex check out attractive members of the opposite sex even when they are fully clothed? Yes, of course.

And, once again, the Scripture that you quoted in support of modesty for women deals with wearing too much adornment.

Oh I see, will that work for a females genitals too?

This is YOUR theory - and it is NOT proven whatsoever.

Also, so we just have people lust and sin till they "get it out of their systems once seeing more every day"?
So sin for awhile, you'll eventually not care about it.
That's like saying, "hey, if you get drunk enough, and enough times, eventually you'll get sick of getting drunk".
Just indulge in your lust or habit (even tho it's sinful), till you're bored with it.

This is how cultures are dulled to conscience - this is how street drugs and prostitution have been common activity in Amsterdam.

It's hardly Christian is it? Some theory.
What does GOD say to do with temptation?

FLEE IT, not indulge till you become dulled to it.

2 Timothy 2:22
Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
(we flee lusts, not pursue them - adding to temptation)

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.



This is nothign more than being told to live like the World around me and forget God's principles...

sometimes I truly wonder -----------------

 

[Chajara]

I didn't realize it was a sin to simply see another human naked. As I said, I've seen enough art and photography that I don't look twice at a naked guy (or a girl, for that matter). It's just the human body, so who cares?

Guess I'm a horrible sinner, then. Personally, I'd rather shrug and move on than get all worked up and furious over it.

And no one answered my question about male gynecologists. They see naked women every day, and they put their hands all over them too. Are they sinning? Would I be sinning by seeing a male gynecologist? Do you think they struggle with lust, or do they just not care because they see a million vaginas and sets of boobs a day?

 

[Archivist]

Oh I see, will that work for a females genitals too?

That isn't what is under discussion here--you did actually read the OP, didn't you?

This is YOUR theory - and it is NOT proven whatsoever.

Again--this has been said before--in many where women regularly go topless the breasts are notregarded sexually.

Also, so we just have people lust and sin till they "get it out of their systems once seeing more every day"? So sin for awhile, you'll eventually not care about it. That's like saying, "hey, if you get drunk enough, and enough times, eventually you'll get sick of getting drunk". Just indulge in your lust or habit (even tho it's sinful), till you're bored with it.

But Scripture doesn't say that a woman should expose her breasts. Indeed, as I said before, the Ethiopean Church is one of the oldest in Christendom and women there routinely go topless.

This is how cultures are dulled to conscience - this is how street drugs and prostitution have been common activity in Amsterdam. It's hardly Christian is it? Some theory.

That isn't what we are discusing here. Please stay on topic.

What does GOD say to do with temptation?

FLEE IT, not indulge till you become dulled to it.

Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.(we flee lusts, not pursue them - adding to temptation)

Romans 12:2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

The scripture you qouted has nothing to do with whether women should have the right to go topless.

This is nothign more than being told to live like the World around me and forget God's principles...sometimes I truly wonder

No one is suggesting that we forget God's principles.

 

[jiminpa]

It would preclude me from going to public pools, and I like going to pools. It's bad enough as it is here in the U.S., with what passes as being covered now.

 

[jiminpa]

Because we actually have a bit of familiarity with psychology.

Fact of the matter is, though, that my generation is quite likely to see things this way, whereas your generation will hold fast. Eventually, my generation will be the major political/social force in America (which will be only another decade or so). So on your way into retirement, we'll start seeing more and more of these things talked about.

And in that, I find comfort.

Yes, but by then you will have grown up, and will act so much like us that it would frighten you if you could see it now, or else you will be one of those pathetic old men who still try to act like teenagers for their whole lives.

 

[Nadiine]

I didn't realize it was a sin to simply see another human naked.

This is a false generalization you're using - it's not what we have said or advocated.

As I said, I've seen enough art and photography that I don't look twice at a naked guy (or a girl, for that matter). It's just the human body, so who cares?

Yes, and this type of occurrence is what I call dulling our conscience and being desentized to worldly things that we aren't supposed to be getting used to or build apathy towards.
It's nothing I'd brag about if I were a Christian actually.
Here's a verse you might want to read:
Jeremiah 6:15
"Were they ashamed because of the abomination they have done? They were not even ashamed at all;They did not even know how to blush.
Therefore they shall fall among those who fall;At the time that I punish them,They shall be cast down," says the LORD.

This judgment from God is to a people that grew apathetic and calloused to what was evil/wrong in God's sight.
Not being able to blush is clearly stating that they lost their consciences and no longer were embarrassed by their actions & sins - they grew numb to it the more they continued.
Same thing here. We fill ourselves with the things of the world long enough, and they stop bothering us and shocking us - we slowly accept them and our spirit changes... before long, we're mocking Christians who take offense to things we don't anymore.
ie. nudity in types of art, or whatever else.

Usually the bigger problem isn't with that Christian, but the one who no longer finds offense or "shame" in things that they used to or should.

Guess I'm a horrible sinner, then. Personally, I'd rather shrug and move on than get all worked up and furious over it.

You answer to GOD not me or anyone else. One day you will stand before Him all by your lonesome to give account of your life and conduct and salvation/ or lack thereof. My issue is, this isn't the actual source of what's going on spiritually; THIS IS 1 SYMPTOM/SIDE EFFECT of the overall spiritual condition that is the much larger issue.

Spiritual apathy causes us to lose our sensitivity to the things of God and become more like the world around us.
And usually in that process, Christians that haven't turned apathetic to the world, get mocked regularly for being too prudish or 'legalistic' by these sorts of people when actually, they're the ones in the spiritual trouble.

And no one answered my question about male gynecologists. They see naked women every day, and they put their hands all over them too. Are they sinning? Would I be sinning by seeing a male gynecologist? Do you think they struggle with lust, or do they just not care because they see a million vaginas and sets of boobs a day?

I didn't see this or I would of answered it - I met a lady at a function I was at who's husband was a gynocologist. In chatting with a group of us, she mentioned that for some reason, he just didn't have sexual issues/turn on's w/ those women, but had a healthy sexual appetite w/ his wife.

So 2 things I'd point out here -
1) I think women should predominantly be in this field just as a precaution.
2) God can and does GIFT doctors to be able to perform their fields of service. This is a gift of God.

Just like God gifts certain people to be eunichs - MOST are not gifted to be celibate & unmarried all their lifes, but God has created people specifically to remain this way and be satisfied and happy in it.

The same way people are gifted in art, singing, playing instruments, science, God can gift a male doctor not to have sexual stimulation with patients... we have to remember that they are also a caregiver and are looking at them biologically too - you aren't a Doctor, so you can't and won't be looking at female genitals in the same capacity and mentality he is.

and IF he has sexual problems, then he needs to get in another field of work for many reasons. (that's his individual issue & problem he faces and needs to deal with it)

 

[catlover]

Women in Demark have gained the right to go topless in public pools.

Why should this be an issue? Shouldn't women have the right to go topless anywhere that men can go topless?

The Europeans are not as uptight about nudity and other matters. I think it's because the Puritans left Europe and they influenced America with their version of "morality".

 

[Nadiine]

The Europeans are not as uptight about nudity and other matters. I think it's because the Puritans left Europe and they influenced America with their version of "morality".

Whatever the reason, the word "uptight" is a bit unfair.

I'm not "uptight", I'm obeying God in modesty - it's GOD who clothed Adam & Eve for a reason.

I can easily turn your statement around to say something like, "The Europeans are not as spiritually in tune with God due to their open nudity".
lol

 

[catlover]

Whatever the reason, the word "uptight" is a bit unfair.

I'm not "uptight", I'm obeying God in modesty - it's GOD who clothed Adam & Eve for a reason.

I can easily turn your statement around to say something like, "The Europeans are not as spiritually in tune with God due to their open nudity".
lol

The Europeans realize the human body is not to be feared, and obviously a European man can see a pair of breasts without thinking dirty thoughts...so perhaps European men are more "Godly" than American men.

For Pete's sake breasts are feeding a baby not sexual objects.

 

[TheReasoner]

Oh I see, will that work for a females genitals too?

This is YOUR theory - and it is NOT proven whatsoever.

Also, so we just have people lust and sin till they "get it out of their systems once seeing more every day"?
So sin for awhile, you'll eventually not care about it.
That's like saying, "hey, if you get drunk enough, and enough times, eventually you'll get sick of getting drunk".
Just indulge in your lust or habit (even tho it's sinful), till you're bored with it.

This is how cultures are dulled to conscience - this is how street drugs and prostitution have been common activity in Amsterdam.

It's hardly Christian is it? Some theory.
What does GOD say to do with temptation?

FLEE IT, not indulge till you become dulled to it.

2 Timothy 2:22
Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
(we flee lusts, not pursue them - adding to temptation)

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.



This is nothign more than being told to live like the World around me and forget God's principles...

sometimes I truly wonder -----------------

And this is your view. You think that men being tempted is universal if breasts are shown. It isn't. Men are tempted in any regard. If you want to stop female forms from turning men on, then you have to cover women in burkas. And even then you can be sure men will still 'feel the sap rising' so to speak.

It's a human trait. What is or isn't a turn on is more cultural than anything else. What is or isn't a norm is also cultural.

Here in Scandinavia people go sunbathing in the middle of the city with hardly any clothes on. Men and women. Most Scandinavian women are very beautiful by western standards. Tall, blonde, large breasts, long legs.... But how they look isn't a factor. Not a large one anyway. Women aged in their 60s also take off most of their clothes and sunbathe publicly. Even if they are overweight, clear evidence of childbearing and more.
It's common. It's normal. And Norwegian men aren't going nuts over it. Sure, during spring everyone gets a little more... Friendly, but that's because of the sun, heat and days off. It's natural.

Let's say it this way, it may not be 'clean' for you. Or for men in your immediate vicinity. But does that mean we have to cover up because you find it offensive that we don't?

If so, should we then cover our women up like Muslim women do? Because it can be/is seen as offensive whenever a woman wears anything less than a normal house's supply of curtains?

 

[Nadiine]

And this is your view. You think that men being tempted is universal if breasts are shown. It isn't. Men are tempted in any regard. If you want to stop female forms from turning men on, then you have to cover women in burkas. And even then you can be sure men will still 'feel the sap rising' so to speak.

It's a human trait. What is or isn't a turn on is more cultural than anything else. What is or isn't a norm is also cultural.

Here in Scandinavia people go sunbathing in the middle of the city with hardly any clothes on. Men and women. Most Scandinavian women are very beautiful by western standards. Tall, blonde, large breasts, long legs.... But how they look isn't a factor. Not a large one anyway. Women aged in their 60s also take off most of their clothes and sunbathe publicly. Even if they are overweight, clear evidence of childbearing and more.
It's common. It's normal. And Norwegian men aren't going nuts over it. Sure, during spring everyone gets a little more... Friendly, but that's because of the sun, heat and days off. It's natural.

Let's say it this way, it may not be 'clean' for you. Or for men in your immediate vicinity. But does that mean we have to cover up because you find it offensive that we don't?

If so, should we then cover our women up like Muslim women do? Because it can be/is seen as offensive whenever a woman wears anything less than a normal house's supply of curtains?

No, this is NOT an issue of "that's your opinion, but mine is different as a Christian".
This is not a Christian liberty to go partially or fully nude in public, it's wrong. It's immodest, it leads others to lust and/or draws their attn. right TO THE BODY ITSELF as a focal point.
Paul specifically calls them to draw attn. AWAY from body parts & AWAY from the focus of the outward self - either by nudity (ie. being modest/having propriety as a Christian) and by way of gaudy, expensive jewlery & clothing - again, it's to take focus OFF self and onto what matters more; the spiritual.
The WORLD is who focuses on the temporal & outward, Christian's should have less of one.

Showing more of the nude body for a female is an enticement for men and is NOT MODEST, it's just the opposite.
Sorry, this isn't mere opinion - we don't live w/ hardcore, remote pygmy tribes in Africa - this dress code (lack thereof) was not a way of life until much later after rebellion and immorality started setting in - this is NOT what was custom in civilized cultures unless they grew predominantly immoral or pagan.
It's nothing associated or linked with Christianity or proper Christian conduct - either currently or historically.

I completely disagree with your post points, and base it on written scripture and God's principles directly implied thru them.

You also made the same mistake of using lust of NOT SEEING BREASTS as a point.. you just shot yourself in the foot as I stated before, what you're saying is, "men lust after women no matter what they wear or don't wear, so just have her take her top off, what difference will it make"?
What kind of argument is that? If males lust if she wears jeans & a regular top, how does taking OFF her top make them lust LESS or move their attn. AWAY from lust???

Reason would tell us that covering up MORE hinders lust more by your statement --- so how it is moral for a Christian to take off even MORE clothing when covering up MORE would hinder lust? Namely when God's word tells us to employ MODESTY???
I have a real hard time understanding how going topless is "modesty" and helping to curb lust.

(all this aside, sunbathing is harmful, it baffles me why people even sunbathe anymore)