Topless Danes

[HuntingMan]

Just because she didn't doesn't mean it's sinful.

Thats not really an argument, is it?
Show me precedent.
Who knows what sorts of things your generation will allow because you refuse to accept the truth.

Did Adam and Eve realize they were naked ?
Did God cover them ?
Why is that breasts are ok to expose and not sexual organs?
If a man has to look at breasts and deal with it, lets just go all the way and expose the vagina as well.

Why would we have to stop where YOU determine the line of moral decency is?

You say hardwired. I'd say softwired, as regards breasts as an explosive sexual stimulus.

You dont think its very easy to understand the reason a 19 year old boy would be ok with women walking around topless ?

Get back with me in 20 years and lets see how the next couple decades have gone and how you feel then.

 

[Tissue]

Deep down, I think we ALL know it in our hearts. You know, it's one thing to talk about it and even see some nudity on tv, but when it's up front, in person right in front of you with strangers - going topless/bottomless, I think we would all know in our hearts that it's wrong.

(anyone sensitive to hearing the Spirit anyways).

This is ridiculous. Once again, you're basing legitimacy in spirituality upon whether or not THEY AGREE WITH YOU (not Scripture, though you'd argue that it is).

You are not the spokesperson for God. You have no direct connection that we do not. You have no privileges. You are nothing but another human being, walking this planet, stumbling around and doing your best to figure things out. So are we.

Have a bit of respect. Grow up.

 

[Chajara]

What tissue said. Modesty is cultural. What's modest here is immodest in other places and vice versa.

By the way, I took a couple of psychology courses and besides that I'm a woman who's turned on by visuals. Hair is my big thing. Put some long, well-kept hair on a guy along with a lean body and tall frame and I'll be slobbering over him no matter how covered his naughty bits are. My own boyfriend is an extremely good looking guy, and every time I see that boy in his underwear I'm catcalling at him from across the room. I have absolutely no issues with nudity, however, so seeing a guy naked won't necessarily turn me on or off. I've seen enough naked guys in artwork and photography that I just don't care.

That brings up a point: Do you think male gynecologists are aroused by their patients girlybits being all on display? Do you think they're having a hard time controlling themselves when they're examining their breasts? Or do you think it's so routine to them that once you exit the exam room they won't even remember anything about what you looked like? I'm guessing the latter.

EDIT TO ADD: And by the way, I really don't appreciate the whole "You disagree with me so you must not be sensitive to the Spirit" load of hogwash. Don't question my walk with God and I won't question yours. Coming to two different conclusions means that we are different people with different personalities and different sensitivities, and nothing more. It makes me highly uncomfortable to be around people who are very outward and loud in their worship, because my faith is highly personal to me. Does it mean that I'm less of a Christian because I refuse to sing worship songs? No, it means it's not my thing. I'm not going to stick around to debate this if everyone can't be respectful.

 

[TheReasoner]

my sentiments EXACTLY! And why they're the ones promoting it as acceptable.

Female breasts have ALWAYS been a focal point of male sexual arousment.

Is it a violation on CF policy to ask any of these guys promoting topless females if THEY are sexually stimulated by viewing women's boobs.

Do they have topless bars in Denmark too?

You are writing this from one cultural perspective though. In Norway we have a park full of nude statues, the Vigeland park. Children, youth and adults, all nude. All over the park. When it opened people freaked out because you shouldn't have such terrible 'art' publicly. Nudity is private. Sexual. Dirty.
Now, I don't think any Norwegian who goes to the park gets aroused. But people from other cultures do.
The cultural aspect should not be ignored. Like I said, some cultures have women covering their legs. There, showing them is as bad as showing your breasts in church in the US.You just don't do it, it's far too 'loose'. But I am sure Americans don't mind ladies showing their calves, right? That's because it's OK in your culture.

Let's have Arab immigrants to Norway. These are the people who can yell at women in the street, calling them harlots and floosies because they don't cover up like Muslim women do. To them I am sure it is very offensive or arousing to see a woman's face, legs, overall shape... And I am sure it can be a real problem for them. It's a cultural thing primarily.

 

[HuntingMan]

Sexual arousal at the sight of a rhombus isn't lust.

That is a very convenient dodge, poster.
Thinking about killing a man isnt 'murder' either....God judges the heart.

Of course. Because we do things differently than you.

The 3 children I raised would never accept this sense of loose morality you are presenting.
So 'we' is not as all encompassing of your 'generation' as you believe.

I usually love old people, but some of them can be quite arrogant/self-conceited.

I usually love young people, but some of them can be quite decieved, just as many of us were at 19.

 

[Tissue]

Thats not really an argument, is it?
Show me precedent.

I can show you precedent for slavery. How about that?

Who knows what sorts of things your generation will allow because you refuse to accept the truth.

Or because we aren't satisfied with the pat answers our parents gave us, and want a legitimate, deeper understand of the truth?

Did Adam and Eve realize they were naked ?
Did God cover them ?
Why is that breasts are ok to expose and not sexual organs?

Good question. I'd argue because of the ease with which a woman could be raped, if this were the case. Very likely, rape was a problem in the early days of Genesis. They didn't exactly have the Ten Commandments to walk around with.

If a man has to look at breasts and deal with it, lets just go all the way and expose the vagina as well.

The OP is about equality of toplessness for men and women.

Why would we have to stop where YOU determine the line of moral decency is?

Because I'm more youthful than you, have a stronger voice, and am more persuasive for a number of up-and-coming voters?

You dont think its very easy to understand the reason a 19 year old boy would be ok with women walking around topless ?

I actually don't have much of a visual sexual drive. My sexual drive is more emotional.

Get back with me in 20 years and lets see how the next couple decades have gone and how you feel then.

As long as you don't hold me personally responsible for EVERYTHING that occurs in America (just as I haven't held you responsible for the Crusades), we'll definitely keep in touch.

 

[HuntingMan]

You are not the spokesperson for God.

And GOD was the one who clothed man once that barrier was passed and man knew he was naked.
Nothing has changed, man STILL knows his nakedness.

Grow up.

ditto..

 

[Angel4Truth]

I usually love old people, but some of them can be quite arrogant/self-conceited.

Because I'm more youthful than you, have a stronger voice, and am more persuasive for a number of up-and-coming voters

 

[Tissue]

That is a very convenient dodge, poster.
Thinking about killing a man isnt 'murder' either....God judges the heart.

Prove to me, Scripturally or rationally, that sexual arousal at the sight of a circle is wrong, and I'll agree with you.

I suppose you consider wet dreams a sin?

The 3 children I raised would never accept this sense of loose morality you are presenting.
So 'we' is not as all encompassing of your 'generation' as you believe.

Of course not. There are a multitude of differing viewpoints. That will only serve to strike closer to the truth, however; giving us a fuller picture.

I usually love young people, but some of them can be quite decieved, just as many of us were at 19.

Age does not bring wisdom, except as regards mortgages, affairs, and credit cards.

You can quote me on that, if you want to give someone an example of a precocious teenager who doesn't know his place, and actually speaks when he isn't spoken to.

 

[HuntingMan]

I can show you precedent for slavery. How about that?

and now for the distractions

Or because we aren't satisfied with the pat answers our parents gave us, and want a legitimate, deeper understand of the truth?

Nice try chap, but this is about you wanting to see young half naked women...it has nothing to do with truth.

Good question. I'd argue because of the ease with which a woman could be raped, if this were the case.

She can carry a gun.
And didnt you just make a statement about men needing to control themselves ?

Very likely, rape was a problem in the early days of Genesis.

No hypothesis please.

They didn't exactly have the Ten Commandments to walk around with.

Apparently they had rules since Cain was cast out for murdering his brother.

The OP is about equality of toplessness for men and women.

And when someone a little more immoral than you may be wants to take it to the next step ?

Because I'm more youthful than you, have a stronger voice, and am more persuasive for a number of up-and-coming voters?

You seem to think that your youth is to your credit.
As I said, come back to me in 20 years when you have matured and are a man and no longer feel like a horny teenager.

I actually don't have much of a visual sexual drive. My sexual drive is more emotional.

You'll have to forgive me if I dont buy that line.
Not accusing you of lying, just accepting what I learned myself and have seen evidenced over the 20 years in which I have become 'old'.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Q: Is it cultural?

A: Yes.
B: No.
A: Yes.
B: No.
A: Yes.
B: No.
A: Yes.
B: No.
A: Yes.
B: No.
A: Yes.
B: No.
A: Yes.
B: No.
...

Repeat ad nauseum.

Are we done yet?

 

[Tissue]

Nice try chap, but this is about you wanting to see young half naked women...it has nothing to do with truth.

What of the women who support this?

She can carry a gun.
And didnt you just make a statement about men needing to control themselves?

They do need to. It'd be a social problem/mandate. A lot of God's mandates were of this nature.

No hypothesis please.

Hypotheses are made to be tested, and trashed if found lacking. You find it lacking?

Apparently they had rules since Cain was cast out for murdering his brother.

And yet, Cain murdered his brother. He broke a rule.

And when someone a little more immoral than you may be wants to take it to the next step?

You say immoral, I say sensible.

You seem to think that your youth is to your credit.
As I said, come back to me in 20 years when you have matured and are a man and no longer feel like a horny teenager.

Right, because the dangers of sexual lust dies when you're 40.

You'll have to forgive me if I dont buy that line.
Not accusing you of lying, just accepting what I learned myself and have seen evidenced over the 20 years in which I have become 'old'.

Then you must be a genius, to psychologically analyze who I am, what my sexual drive is, and whether or not I am lying.

I'm being sarcastic there. I don't actually think you're a psychological genius.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Age does not bring wisdom, except as regards mortgages, affairs, and credit cards.

You can quote me on that, if you want to give someone an example of a precocious teenager who doesn't know his place, and actually speaks when he isn't spoken to.

This is according to God's word and you can quote Him on that and ill take His word over yours any day.

Job 12:12. Wisdom is with aged men, and with length of days, understanding.

 

[Tissue]

This is according to God's word and you can quote Him on that and ill take His word over yours any day.

Job 12:12. Wisdom is with aged men, and with length of days, understanding.

Some aged men drool on themselves. Some aged men are absolutely brilliant and have done wonderful and Godly things with their lives.

 

[HuntingMan]

Prove to me, Scripturally or rationally, that sexual arousal at the sight of a circle is wrong, and I'll agree with you.

Resorting to strawmen ?

I suppose you consider wet dreams a sin?

Again with the strawmen?
an involuntary issue has nothing to do with women and men knowingly and willingly doing something to cause the other to sin in their hearts.

Of course not. There are a multitude of differing viewpoints. That will only serve to strike closer to the truth, however; giving us a fuller picture.

They have the viewpoints that were instilled by the man who raised them.
You do understand that human beings are conditioned, correct ?
My children believe what I taught them to believe because it was truth and even in their own lives they see that what they were taught is the truth and that it needs to be applied to their live and their own childrens lives if they are to remain morally sound and not end up living like Sodomites with loose ethics and morals.

Age does not bring wisdom, except as regards mortgages, affairs, and credit cards.

20 years from now youre going to look back on this conversation and laugh at yourself.

You can quote me on that,

Most likely it will be entirely forgotten before I have even lost interest in this thread and you.
I dont have any inclination to retain this sort of self proclaimed 'wisdom'.

if you want to give someone an example of a precocious teenager who doesn't know his place, and actually speaks when he isn't spoken to.

Yes, we all want to be rebellious hippies living in a van freaking out the establishment. That is, until we mature into adults and understand the truth.

 

[Nadiine]

You are writing this from one cultural perspective though. In Norway we have a park full of nude statues, the Vigeland park. Children, youth and adults, all nude. All over the park. When it opened people freaked out because you shouldn't have such terrible 'art' publicly. Nudity is private. Sexual. Dirty.

Why do people keep equating that we're saying this is "dirty"? Who has said sex or women's boobs are "dirty"? Not me.
We're calling it provocative, immodest and luring men to lust OR draw attention to the BODY itself... it's what it LEADS to that can be or is "dirty", the human body and sex is not - in or of themselves.

This once again goes back to Godly principles - His guidelines cover this directly; not only written, but in the conscience as well.

I'd also say this, it's very unfair to the majority of men who ARE sexually stimulated by women's breasts, to have them flaunted in front of them publically. Guys already have enough temptation by immodest clothes we already wear - why lend more fuel to the fire for those who ARE turned on by it or by seeing more of the body?

The issue is what it leads the MIND to think of and what it fills our minds with; are we led to spiritual filling by it?
Is it promoting Godliness? DOES IT GLORIFY GOD?

Now, I don't think any Norwegian who goes to the park gets aroused. But people from other cultures do.
The cultural aspect should not be ignored. Like I said, some cultures have women covering their legs. There, showing them is as bad as showing your breasts in church in the US.You just don't do it, it's far too 'loose'. But I am sure Americans don't mind ladies showing their calves, right? That's because it's OK in your culture.

Then again, we have to conclude that street drugs are FINE becuz of Amsterdam.
Prostitution must be ok too, and abortion, and homosexuality/parades/gay clergy, etc. etc.

Did God tell Israel "just get tattoos and piercings like the pagans all around you, do what they do becuz they don't have a problem with it".
No, he set them apart NOT to copy and follow what others were doing, He kept them set apart; not only in the way they looked physically, but their actions & lifestyles as well.

This keeps getting overlooked. And since when does it make something "OK/FINE" just becuz another culture does it??
Some cultures mutilate girls sexual organs... and other sickening, wrong things. OTHER CULTURES ARE NOT OUR STANDARD OF CONDUCT AS CHRISTIANS.
(WELL THEY DO IT, WHY CAN'T WE?)

It's also sad that Muslims have more modesty and morality than we do - it should put us to shame actually.

 

[HuntingMan]

What of the women who support this?

Believe me poster, I was 19 once. I know for a fact, regrettably, that many women are just as bad as many young men are.
My two exwives are evidence of that. No morals whatsoever.

Hypotheses are made to be tested, and trashed if found lacking. You find it lacking?

I found it 'convenient' in that you seem to be grasping at any straw you can to justify your views.

And yet, Cain murdered his brother. He broke a rule.

Are you paying attention ?
You are the one who insinuated that there were no rules, not me.
I believe there were, even before the commandments were given.

You say immoral, I say sensible.

Thankfully many of your generation dont see it the same.

Right, because the dangers of sexual lust dies when you're 40.

Hardly.
But at 40 Im far more capable of discerning 'danger' than I was at 19.

Then you must be a genius, to psychologically analyze who I am, what my sexual drive is, and whether or not I am lying.

I took the classes, mate.
While I agree there are some variances the majority of men are visually stimulated, even if its not a predominate thing.

I'm being sarcastic there. I don't actually think you're a psychological genius.

And I care about this why, exactly ?

 

[HuntingMan]

Well thats interesting.
Ive already lost interest.

 

[Tissue]

They have the viewpoints that were instilled by the man who raised them.
You do understand that human beings are conditioned, correct ?
My children believe what I taught them to believe because it was truth and even in their own lives they see that what they were taught is the truth and that it needs to be applied to their live and their own childrens lives if they are to remain morally sound and not end up living like Sodomites with loose ethics and morals.

Truth as best as you could tell. But not TRUTH.

 

[Nadiine]

basically, I'm being told to believe this:

Men won't be sexually aroused or interested in women who they see at the beach without tops and a little bikini bottom walking around.

Ok, that makes sense, I also think it fits God's principle of Modesty for Godly women.

thanks for helping me see the light folks!