Top Three

[Biblewriter]

They don't ever mention a pre-trib rapture.

They don't specifically mention the timing of the rapture. But I have just shown that they do, indeed, and in several places, clearly indicate that it will come before the time which has come to be called "the tribulation."

 

[jgr]

And whenever a name and citation is provided, you pretend that that person is not "a recognized scholar."

Example?

 

[Biblewriter]

Example?

I am not going to go back and dig the cases up. But you have done this several times.

 

[Dave L]

They don't specifically mention the timing of the rapture. But I have just shown that they do, indeed, and in several places, clearly indicate that it will come before the time which has come to be called "the tribulation."

The great tribulation Jesus spoke of was Jewish only and involved the destruction of Jerusalem and the permanent end of national Israel. (the Church is now Israel). But the entire New Covenant era places the Church under great tribulation as well only for good reasons.

 

[Biblewriter]

The great tribulation Jesus spoke of was Jewish only and involved the destruction of Jerusalem and the permanent end of national Israel. (the Church is now Israel). But the entire New Covenant era places the Church under great tribulation as well only for good reasons.

This is a blatant denial of much of what the Holy Spirit said through Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and the minor prophets. As well as in the New Testament statements that "the covenants" and "the promises" STILL pertain to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites." And that "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

 

[BABerean2]

Jeremiah

Our Sunday-School lesson this morning is on the passage below from Jeremiah.

I wish you could be there to hear it, since it kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:

.

 

[Dave L]

This is a blatant denial of much of what the Holy Spirit said through Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and the minor prophets. As well as in the New Testament statements that "the covenants" and "the promises" STILL pertain to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites." And that "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

The New Testament interprets the Old. You wind up with the Pharisees otherwise.

 

[Biblewriter]

The New Testament interprets the Old. You wind up with the Pharisees otherwise.

Do you mean the New Testament statements that "the covenants" and "the promises" STILL pertain to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites"? And that "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"?

You are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of a relatively small number of scriptures, NOT EVEN ONE of which actually says what you IMAGINE it means, as an excuse to deny what a much larger number of scriptures EXPLICITLY say.

 

[Dave L]

Do you mean the New Testament statements that "the covenants" and "the promises" STILL pertain to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites"? And that "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"?

You are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of a relatively small number of scriptures, NOT EVEN ONE of which actually says what you IMAGINE it means, as an excuse to deny what a much larger number of scriptures EXPLICITLY say.

God removed the unbelievers from Israel when he abolished circumcision. So the promises are in Christ and only to those who accept him.

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

 

[Biblewriter]

Our Sunday-School lesson this morning is on the passage below from Jeremiah.

I wish you could be there to hear it, since it kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:

.

Did they discuss the fact that "the covenants," (not the old covenant) STILL belong to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites"? (Romans 9:3-4)

 

[Dave L]

Did they discuss the fact that "the covenants," (not the old covenant) STILL belong to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites"? (Romans 9:3-4)

The New Covenant abolished the Old Covenant.


“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” Jeremiah 31:31–33 (KJV 1900)

 

[Biblewriter]

God removed the unbelievers from Israel when he abolished circumcision. So the promises are in Christ and only to those who accept him.

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

You have not answered the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures I quoted, because you cannot. They COMPLETELY disprove your contention. To say nothing of the VERY MANY Old Testament scriptures that EXPLICITLY say the very opposite of what you claim.


35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The LORD of hosts is His name): 36 "If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the LORD, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37 Thus says the LORD: "If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the LORD. Jeremiah 31:35-37

 

[Dave L]

You have not answered the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures I quoted, because you cannot. They COMPLETELY disprove your contention. To say nothing of the VERY MANY Old Testament scriptures that EXPLICITLY say the very opposite of what you claim.


35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The LORD of hosts is His name): 36 "If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the LORD, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37 Thus says the LORD: "If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the LORD. Jeremiah 31:35-37

My answer proves them to be based on misunderstanding.

 

[BABerean2]

Did they discuss the fact that "the covenants," (not the old covenant) STILL belong to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites"? (Romans 9:3-4)

Even after his conversion, Paul begins Romans 11 with two different groups of Israelites, one faithful, and another group that rejects the plan of God.
The faithful remnant in verse 5 proves the covenant promises are still in effect for those who accept God's Son.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



The covenant promise through Abraham is found below. This verse kills Dispensational Theology.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


There is no Plan B outside of the New Covenant.
We are still waiting on you to show us what you have written in your books about the New Covenant.

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[Biblewriter]

God removed the unbelievers from Israel when he abolished circumcision. So the promises are in Christ and only to those who accept him.

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

When you deny that "the covenants and "the promises" still pertain to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites," you are blatantly denying Romans 9:3-4 And when you deny that these Israelites who, "concerning the gospel, are enemies," are yet "beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." you are blatantly denying Romans 11:28-29

And when you deny that this guilty nation will again be restored to its ancient homeland, you are blatantly denying Isaiah 66:15-12, Ezekiel 20:33-38, Ezekiel 36:1-15, and Ezekiel 47:13-20, among other places.

What you are ignoring is that the scriptures explicitly promise that God will eventually bring this guilty nation to repentance, as is explicitly stated in Isaiah 4:3-4, Jeremiah 31:31-32, Zechariah 12:10-14, and Romans 11:25-26. So we are EXPLICITLY told, in both the Old Testament and in the New Testament, that they will ALL eventually trust in Christ, as you correctly state is a requirement for entering the New Covenant.

 

[Dave L]

When you deny that "the covenants and "the promises" still pertain to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites," you are blatantly denying Romans 9:3-4 And when you deny that these Israelites who, "concerning the gospel, are enemies," are yet "beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." you are blatantly denying Romans 11:28-29

And when you deny that this guilty nation will again be restored to its ancient homeland, you are blatantly denying Isaiah 66:15-12, Ezekiel 20:33-38, Ezekiel 36:1-15, and Ezekiel 47:13-20, among other places.

What you are ignoring is that the scriptures explicitly promise that God will eventually bring this guilty nation to repentance, as is explicitly stated in Isaiah 4:3-4, Jeremiah 31:31-32, Zechariah 12:10-14, and Romans 11:25-26. So we are EXPLICITLY told, in both the Old Testament and in the New Testament, that they will ALL eventually trust in Christ, as you correctly state is a requirement for entering the New Covenant.

You are missing something important. Christ abolished the Old Covenant on the Cross, replacing it with the New. Those circumcised before Calvary remained legal Jews and Israel. But when these died of, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. Only spiritual Israel remained. So the apostles still ministered to the legal and now illegal Jewish converts until AD 70, when God destroyed them and the nation. Only a false Judaism remains under God's wrath, and Spiritual Israel who is Jesus and believers.

 

[Biblewriter]

You are missing something important. Christ abolished the Old Covenant on the Cross, replacing it with the New. Those circumcised before Calvary remained legal Jews and Israel. But when these died of, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. Only spiritual Israel remained. So the apostles still ministered to the legal and now illegal Jewish converts until AD 70, when God destroyed them and the nation. Only a false Judaism remains under God's wrath, and Spiritual Israel who is Jesus and believers.

Your "spiritual Israel" is a fiction COMPLETELY missing from scripture. You cannot quote even one scripture that says any such thing. All you can do is quote scriptures which YOU INTERPRET to MEAN that.

 

[Dave L]

Your "spiritual Israel" is a fiction COMPLETELY missing from scripture. You cannot quote even one scripture that says any such thing. All you can do is quote scriptures which YOU INTERPRET to MEAN that.

Jesus is Israel.

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

Moses and Paul called Abraham’s seed both Hebrews and Israel.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)


“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)


“And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)


“Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)


“Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

Therefore Jesus IS Israel, Abraham’s Seed (Singular Galatians 3:16) along with believers. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29 (KJV 1900)

 

[Biblewriter]

Jesus is Israel.

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

Moses and Paul called Abraham’s seed both Hebrews and Israel.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)


“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)


“And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)


“Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)


“Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

Therefore Jesus IS Israel, Abraham’s Seed (Singular Galatians 3:16) along with believers. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29 (KJV 1900)

As I said, you cannot post even one scripture that actually says that there is a "spiritual Israel." All you can do is post scriptures that you choose to interpret to mean this.

 

[Dave L]

As I said, you cannot post even one scripture that actually says that there is a "spiritual Israel." All you can do is post scriptures that you choose to interpret to mean this.

If you remove the unbelievers (Romans 11) only spiritual (believing) Israel remains.