Top Three

[iamlamad]

What are the top three reasons you hold to the eschatological position you have now? If you feel up to it please state your position (example Premil, Pretrib, Futurist, etc) This is open to all, to anyone willing to share their theological reflections, thanks in advance.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

1. It follows the written scriptures
2. It follows the written scriptures
3. I still follows the written scriptures

 

[Douggg]

Your claim above falls apart in the passage below.

I think you were supposed to be the person who proves that 1Thessalonains4:13-18 and Revelation 20:4-6 that there will be only one bodily resurrection. Which you could not do.

And I gave you the breakdown of the multiple bodily resurrections.

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
("forever" is a lot longer than 1,000 years.)
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." (The time of the judgment of the dead in this verse proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.)

What do the above verses have to do with my breakdown of the multiple bodily resurrections? And how do those verses, Revelation 11:15-18, prove only one bodily resurrections?


(1) the rapture/resurrection to take place before the beginning of the Day of the Lord;

(2) followed by the two resurrections of the millennium,
......(a) one for the martyred tribulation saints at the beginning,
......(b) and the other for the Great White Throne Judgment, at the end of the millennium, for what will ...........be the last day.

Your claim is also in direct opposition to the words of Christ in John 5:27-30, and the words of Christ in Matthew 25:31-46, and the words of Paul in 2 Timothy 4:1, and the words of Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

I have been waiting for proof. Do you not believe a resurrection for the Great White Throne Judgment?

Do you not believe a resurrection for the martyred tribulation saints at the beginning of the millennium in Revelation 20:4-6?

Do you not believe a resurrection to take place at the time of the rapture in 1Thessalonians4:13-18?

 

[keras]

The rapture/resurrection is in the bible in 1Thessalonians4:13 - 5:11.

Please print out those verses in your Bible version, as I can't find the words 'heaven, or immortality' in my REBible.
It seems to me that you have made a very great leap into fiction and added to scripture.

 

[Douggg]

Please print out those verses in your Bible version, as I can't find the words 'heaven, or immortality' in my REBible.
It seems to me that you have made a very great leap into fiction and added to scripture.

Heavenly is not here on earth.


1Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[BABerean2]

1) the rapture/resurrection to take place before the beginning of the Day of the Lord;

Not based on the text below.
The event is described at the end of chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5.
The word "But" connects the two chapters.
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected.
The event occurs on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.
For most of the history of the Church this event was understood to occur at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

There is no return to heaven for a period of 7 years in the passage.
It is a modern invention.

The above is the proof you asked for, based on scripture.
Will you accept it, or attempt to ignore it?


The video below was produced by former Pretribber Steven Straub.
He is the son of a Baptist preacher.
He wrote the book titled "Changed", when he discovered the truth about this passage.

.

 

[Dave L]

I don't know where you are getting that, nor what it means.

It means you cannot discern the true Christ or understand scripture apart from it.

 

[Douggg]

Not based on the text below.
The event is described at the end of chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5.
The word "But" connects the two chapters.
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected.
The event occurs on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.
For most of the history of the Church this event was understood to occur at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

There is no return to heaven for a period of 7 years in the passage.
It is a modern invention.


The video below was produced by former Pretribber Steven Straub.

.

I am not watching countless videos. Please communicate in your own words.

You are missing that in 2Thessalonians2:4, the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God hood, triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The saying peace and safety in 1Thessalonains5, before the beginning of the Day of Lord, totally unexpected like a thief in the night - is because the Jews will be thinking the Antichrist is the messiah and that they will be thinking that they are in the early stages of the messianic age. Betrayal by the Antichrist will be last thing on their mind..

1Thesslaonians4:13-18, 1Thessalonians5:1-11, 2Thessalonians2:3-4 all go to together, that the rapture/ resurrection will take place before that act of betrayal takes place.

 

[Revealing Times]

It means you cannot discern the true Christ or understand scripture apart from it.

SMH......These guys can't see the rapture and they actually lecture people. This amazes me.

 

[keras]

SMH......These guys can't see the rapture and they actually lecture people. This amazes me.

That is because a rapture to heaven of the Church, is not found in the Bible.

I find it hard to credit, that intelligent people are discussing scenarios of impossible things, as though they will actually take place.
Ideas like an instantaneous change into glorified bodies, before any trials and testing, let alone Judgment.
The rapture to heaven of the Church is a fable that has consumed tons of paper and ink, still totally without any sure consensus of when it could happen.
All these issues have been argued, fought over even; for a hundred plus years. Doesn't this make people question the validity of those beliefs?

But what is most concerning, is the fact that the Prophetic Word does plainly tell us what God actually has planned for His people and the world in these last few years of the Church age.
That people will be unable to comprehend those prophesies, is told us by Jesus in Matthew 11:25 and 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, where those learned, so called wise theologians and Bible experts, cannot understand these truths. Also in Isaiah 29:9-12, we are told that people who choose to believe false theories will be blinded to the truth and 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 says that God will place those with closed minds under a compelling delusion, which makes them believe what is false.
So that all who have not believed the truth, but made falsehood their choice, may be brought to Judgment.

Fellow Christians, my aim and desire is for all of you and as many as I can reach, to be presented with the scriptural Truth; the undeniable facts of prophecy and a common sense, logical sequence of what will happen in the near future to all of us.

It is a message of hope and God's Promise of protection during a short time of difficulty, and then how He will mightily Bless His faithful people, as they all live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.

 

[Marilyn C]

What are the top three reasons you hold to the eschatological position you have now? If you feel up to it please state your position (example Premil, Pretrib, Futurist, etc) This is open to all, to anyone willing to share their theological reflections, thanks in advance.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Hi JM,

Thanks for asking. I would love to tell you. My 3 top reasons I hold for my eschatological position.

1. Ephesians 1: 9 & 10 `..having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both of which are in heaven and on earth - in Christ.`

2. Colossians 1: 16 `For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.`

3. Acts 3: 20 & 21 `God....may send Jesus Christ,....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the prophets since the world began.`

So we see that Christ made all things in heaven and earth with rulership positions. God the Father planned that these would all come under Christ. Thus when the first rulership position in the created order is to take place, (Christ visibly ruling in the third heaven) then His Body will be with Him there.

First cab off the rank as it were, before the other rulership positions are all brought under Christ step by step.

Marilyn.

 

[Revealing Times]

That is because a rapture to heaven of the Church, is not found in the Bible.

Yes, its found in the bible, you just can't see it because you are too busy revealing "your truths" and no facts can persuade you because you already know the answer, even though you don't.

Christendom disagrees with you, that's strike one.

Paul wrote of the Rapture, that is a Latin word that was translated from the Greek Harpazo, which is translated to be caught up in English. You do understand different languages use different words right? So when you see "CAUGHT UP" that is the Latin word Rapmere or Rapture. Way to many people profess to understand eschatology, they need to leave it be if they don't understand it TBH.

I find it hard to credit, that intelligent people are discussing scenarios of impossible things, as though they will actually take place.
Ideas like an instantaneous change into glorified bodies, before any trials and testing, let alone Judgment.

Where did you copy and paste this from ? The sentences are weirdly structured. 1 Cor. 15 says that we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, not to a GLORIOUS BODY as you {whoever wrote it} assumes, but from a LIVING HUMAN into a Spirit Man, who then travels to Heaven just like the Spirit Man that arises from the Grave without the SIN FLESH does. That is what it means when it says the Dead in Christ are raised WITHOUT CORRUPTION {no Sin Flesh}. Then we who are alive and remain {humans alive at the time of the Rapture.......CATCHING AWAY if you prefer} will be caught up to be with them, and we are CHANGED from humans with SIN FLESH into humans with no SIN FLESH, Psssttttttttt, we die !! Our Spirits go to be with Jesus, where we receive our Glorious bodies in Heaven {Rev. 19}.

Your problem brother is you put the cart before the horse. The rest of that is not worth replying to, its not even intelligible, so wherever you got it from, I would stop using that site. This above is why I stopped replying to you 99 percent of the time brother. How can someone not understand the way we are transformed via our Glorious Bodies ? So you think Sin Flesh is going to Heaven ? Come on!

 

[keras]

Yes, its found in the bible, you just can't see it because you are too busy revealing "your truths" and no facts can persuade you because you already know the answer, even though you don't.

Christendom disagrees with you, that's strike one.

Paul wrote of the Rapture, that is a Latin word that was translated from the Greek Harpazo, which is translated to be caught up in English. You do understand different languages use different words right? So when you see "CAUGHT UP" that is the Latin word Rapmere or Rapture. Way to many people profess to understand eschatology, they need to leave it be if they don't understand it TBH.

You; Rev man, are a classic example of those people referred to in the prophesies I quoted:
That people will be unable to comprehend those prophesies, is told us by Jesus in Matthew 11:25 and 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, where those learned, so called wise theologians and Bible experts, cannot understand these truths. Also in Isaiah 29:9-12, we are told that people who choose to believe false theories will be blinded to the truth and 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 says that God will place those with closed minds under a compelling delusion, which makes them believe what is false. Quote Keras [I changed 'are', to 'will be', for clarity]

Christendom disagrees with me?
I used to think that, but recently I see that manyChristians have renounced the 'rapture' teaching. They will be better able to endure until the end, as we are told to do.
Your example of 'rapture, from 1 Thess 4:17, has been well worked over. That scripture only mentions heaven as the place Jesus comes from, not our destination at all.

Where did you copy and paste this from ? The sentences are weirdly structured.

I wrote #109 myself. If I quote other writers, I acknowledge it.
You are American, I assume, I am a New Zealander. We have had different educations.
I often chuckle at the funny American style I see on posts. It seems to me that spelling and grammar are not well taught there.

1 Cor. 15 says that we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, not to a GLORIOUS BODY as you {whoever wrote it} assumes, but from a LIVING HUMAN into a Spirit Man, who then travels to Heaven just like the Spirit Man that arises from the Grave without the SIN FLESH does. That is what it means when it says the Dead in Christ are raised WITHOUT CORRUPTION {no Sin Flesh}. Then we who are alive and remain {humans alive at the time of the Rapture.......CATCHING AWAY if you prefer} will be caught up to be with them, and we are CHANGED from humans with SIN FLESH into humans with no SIN FLESH, Psssttttttttt, we die !! Our Spirits go to be with Jesus, where we receive our Glorious bodies in Heaven {Rev. 19}.

Humans going to live in heaven is a Satanic lie. Jesus refutes that idea 6 times.
After the Millennium, when those worthy will receive immortality, as prophesied in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, then God and therefore; heaven comes to dwell on earth with us. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[Revealing Times]

You; Rev man, are a classic example of those people referred to in the prophesies I quoted:

You; Rev man, are a classic example of those people referred to in the prophesies I quoted:

The first mistake people like you make is you assume quoting a scripture means that makes you right, I never quite got that, even Satan can quote scriptures. Keep quoting, but that doesn't mean you understand the passages, it that the passages agree with you. TBH, half the time I can't make head nor tails of your posts, you are all over the place.

Christendom disagrees with me?
I used to think that, but recently I see that manyChristians have renounced the 'rapture' teaching. They will be better able to endure until the end, as we are told to do.
Your example of 'rapture, from 1 Thess 4:17, has been well worked over. That scripture only mentions heaven as the place Jesus comes from, not out destination at all.

Christendom disagrees with you still. I agree, many people like you are going down rabbit holes in the last days chasing errant theologies.

I wrote #109 myself. If I quote other writers, I acknowledge it.
You are American, I assume, I am a New Zealander. We have had different educations.
I often chuckle at the funny American style I see on posts. It seems to me that spelling and grammar are not well taught there.

I was speaking of the Sentences doing this kind of thing.
When the space wasn't filled out.
It starts another line. So I figured you C&P something, now it might have been from your site, but that is how that usually happens.

Humans going to live in heaven is a Satanic lie.

You can't even understand what I wrote, SMH. I said just the opposite, we have to be TRANSLATED to Spirit Men before we go to heaven, thus if we are alive when the Rapture happens, we have to die, then we go to be with Jesus, in Heaven, without sin flesh, as Spirit men, then we are given our glorious body in heaven.

So you made an argument against something I never said.

Americans are the greatest set of peoples ever placed on this earth. Our blood, sweat and tears, and Godly influence on the world has kept the world relatively safe the last 75 years. Everything the rest of the world uses was basically invented in the USA. Go figure.

 

[keras]

You can't even understand what I wrote, SMH. I said just the opposite, we have to be TRANSLATED to Spirit Men before we go to heaven, thus if we are alive when the Rapture happens, we have to die, then we go to be with Jesus, in Heaven, without sin flesh, as Spirit men, then we are given our glorious body in heaven.

So you made an argument against something I never said.

What you said and what you promote, is that Christians will go to live in heaven. In a conscious existence.
What I say is; that is unbiblical nonsense. Do you really believe God intends to translate people into spiritual beings, before any testing or Judgment?
Nowhere does the Bible say there will be a rapture removal of people to heaven. It is only the wishful thinking of those who want to avoid the scary times ahead.

The tragedy of the 'rapture' belief, is that when it doesn't happen, many will renounce God for not doing what they expected and desired He would do.​

 

[Biblewriter]

It is not a historic doctrine. But came about in the 1800s. The top dogs are those who spent considerable time developing the error.

This outright lie has been thoroughly disproved, again and again, right in this venue.

 

[Biblewriter]

I am a futurist because the writings of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and the minor prophets are full of highly detailed descriptions of a series of wars or battles that they explicitly said would take place, but which have unquestionably not happened, even yet. These battles are explicitly said to cumulate in an earthly kingdom which has unquestionably never exited. So one of three things is unquestionably true. Either:

1. These things are going to happen in the future. Or:
2. The Bible is not really the word of God. Or:
3. God lied when He said these things would happen.

As choices 2 and 3 are unacceptable to anyone even pretending to be a Christian teacher, we have to go with choice number 1.

I am pre-millennial because Revelation 20 explicitly says, six times over, that the future kingdom described at such length in the Old Testament will last one thousand years.

I am pre-tribulational because, although the scriptures never explicitly state the timing of the rapture, they show in many ways that it will take place before the coming series of wars

 

[Dave L]

This outright lie has been thoroughly disproved, again and again, right in this venue.

Scripture knows nothing of a pre-trib rapture. The top dogs admit it.

 

[Biblewriter]

Scripture knows nothing of a pre-trib rapture. The top dogs admit it.

Even this is a willful misrepresentation of what they said.

 

[Dave L]

Even this is a willful misrepresentation of what they said.

Quote scripture proving your claim.

 

[parousia70]

What are the top three reasons you hold to the eschatological position you have now? If you feel up to it please state your position (example Premil, Pretrib, Futurist, etc) This is open to all, to anyone willing to share their theological reflections, thanks in advance.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Peterism

3)Impossible to Rank
2)as it can not be pinpointed
1)Audience Relevance