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Toll houses?

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Atwood45, Jun 29, 2012.

  1. Protoevangel

    Protoevangel Smash the Patriarchy!

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    Hi Dot,

    I'm downloading the podcast now, and I'll give it a shot, but my first thought regarding what you say here is:

    “you find the teaching about toll houses is in practically every Church Father"
    - Fr. Thomas Hopko​

    "This teaching about the toll houses has early origins; while not a dogma of the Church, it is far more than mere legend or pious opinion.”
    - Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia​

    Wouldn't that count as "anywhere else"? Do you think that Fr. Ted has adequately answered the overwhelming testimony (dare I say, consensus) of the Saints, Elders and Metropolitans of our Holy Church well enough to correct them all?
     
  2. Colleen1

    Colleen1 Legend

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    You're welcome. :)
     
  3. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    I'm not totally against the toll houses, personally, Dan. I was just sharing the podcast because I happened to listen to it a couple days ago, and it hit on this subject with a bit of a different viewpoint. I am not set in any direction. I think it's very probable.

    Fr. Ted wasn't speaking from the Fathers of the Church - where the toll houses came from (because we all know many CF's and Saints believe this. :) He was speaking just from Christ's time and from the Scriptures. At least that was my understanding.
     
  4. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    this is how I see it, it seems that far more holy elders and saints describe the toll houses in the positive than the negative. the affirmation is all over the place.
     
  5. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    I hope I am not coming across as attacking anyone who espouses this doctrine, it is not my intent & believe in their sanctity. I am also not trying to be self righteous. I confess my deep suspicions of the doctrine & try to present my arguments in honesty with truthful findings. If I have offended anyone I am sorry.
     
  6. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    no man, no offense at all (I hope I did not offend either). just giving some counter arguments is all.
     
  7. Protoevangel

    Protoevangel Smash the Patriarchy!

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    I understand, and respect that. :thumbsup: I was curious as to how his argument seemed to hold up for you. But now that I've listened to it a couple of times, I'll give my opinion on it. Father Theodore's argument really appeared to be minimalistic, rejecting of Oral Tradition, and frankly, just not well thought-through.

    I will offer offer a few quick examples:

    1.)
    "No-where in any ecumenical council, or local synod, or dogmatic book, is it written about what happens to the soul after death, until the second coming."
    - Fr. Ted, Theologoumena, 2:19​
    Ecumenical Council:
    True enough. But we are no more sola council than we are sola scriptura.

    Local Synod:
    Untrue.
    Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside or Russia, 19 November/2 December, 1980, mention Toll Houses extensively, in fact, the Synod was conviened to censure Archbishop Lazarus Puhalo (then Deacon), for his position rejecting Toll-Houses. That's when he went to the schismatic "Free Serbian Church". No one who is familiar with the Toll House controversy should be ignorant of this Local Synod.

    Dogmatic book:
    Untrue.
    Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky speaks of Toll-houses in his book, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology (Chapter 10. Christian Eschatology, The fate of man after death.) Please note, this book is regarded as a standard source of Orthodox theology. Since its publication in Russian in 1963, it has been used as the main theology textbook at Holy Trinity Orthodox Seminary in Jordanville, New York; and since the publication of the first English edition in 1983, it has come to be regarded throughout the English-speaking world as one of the best introductory books on Orthodox theology.
    ArchangelsBooks.com » Orthodox Dogmatic Theology: A Concise Exposition Third Edition by Fr. Michael Pomazansky translated by Fr. Seraphim Rose » Orthodox Dogmatics

    Archpriest N. Malinovsky speaks of Toll-houses in his Orthodox Dogmatic Theology book as well. In fact, the Synod of Bishops of the ROCOR mentioned above, said that, "It [toll-houses] is cited in all texts of dogmatic theology."


    2.)
    "They have not been taught to us by Christ Himself."
    - Fr. Ted, Theologoumena, 2:46​
    Um. That is the kind of statement that clearly carys the burden of proof, considering John 21:25 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15, and the the overwhelming evidence we have from Saints, Elders, Metropolitans, the Church's Services, Hymnography, and Hagiography.


    3.)
    "They have not been found in Scripture."
    - Fr. Ted, Theologoumena, 2:49​
    Yea, I thought he would go here. Have you noticed that he completely sidesteps Oral Tradition? Whatever happened to John 21:25 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15?


    The errors and huge stretches continue throughout the podcast. I just don't have time to answer them all.


    Please understand Dorothy, dear sister, that none of my argument is directed at you, but at the podcast itself. I do appreciate you posting it. I just don't think that Fr. Ted thought this podcast through very well.
     
  8. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    as far as Christ and the Scriptures are concerned:

    Toll Houses | theWillardPreacher.com

    and that does not include us wrestling with the spirits of the air in St Paul, and Zachariah's imagery. trying to say that they are not clearly in Scripture is like when Mormons point out that you cannot find Trinity in Scripture. if you put them together as whole, whether you agree or not, you can see the toll houses in Scripture. just my thoughts.
     
  9. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    I understand. He did say certain traditions do hold to the toll house beliefs. But as we know, nobody is infallible and exactly right all the time, so if Fr. Ted didn't research too well when speaking on this (and thinking about it, it does seem reasonable to say he probably didn't really look deeply into the subject matter), but having said that, I love listening to Fr. Ted. :D
     
  10. Protoevangel

    Protoevangel Smash the Patriarchy!

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    I'll give him another listen. :)
     
  11. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    personally, I have found the toll houses to be a buzz word. a lot of folks say that they are heresy or whatever, but when they describe what happens at death, they basically describe the belief.

    and I love listening to Fr Ted too.
     
  12. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    :)
     
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