Toll houses?

[Atwood45]

Hello, I have been exploring Orthodoxy for a while now(I am an Eastern Catholic, trying to find out if I should convert to Orthodoxy) and I must say, The theory on Toll houses really confuses me? I mean purgatory isn't the most biblical dogma but at least I can prove it with scripture, but I am wondering if Toll houses can be proven by scripture or if its just a pure theory.(Also, It seems like Toll houses are stages of "Hell" that purify you, much the the Roman Catholic theory of purgatory, but I am wondering exactly what they are, if they can be proven by scripture or early church fathers.)

Thanks, Atwood

 

[MariaRegina]

Hello, I have been exploring Orthodoxy for a while now(I am an Eastern Catholic, trying to find out if I should convert to Orthodoxy) and I must say, The theory on Toll houses really confuses me? I mean purgatory isn't the most biblical dogma but at least I can prove it with scripture, but I am wondering if Toll houses can be proven by scripture or if its just a pure theory.(Also, It seems like Toll houses are stages of "Hell" that purify you, much the the Roman Catholic theory of purgatory, but I am wondering exactly what they are, if they can be proven by scripture or early church fathers.)

Thanks, Atwood

The toll house theological opinion has never been dogmatized like Purgatory was in Catholicism.

Please do not fret over it.

The point is that we do not know what exactly happens in the next life. The important thing to remember is that now is the time to repent and strive to reach theosis. We must run the race as long as we have breath.

Lord have mercy.

 

[Lukaris]

Some say St. John of Damascus taught this doctrine in hymnography that is attributed to him. He also wrote an Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith & it does not seem to be there (I may be wrong, but I clould not find it there). All I willl say here.

 

[Atwood45]

The toll house theological opinion has never been dogmatized like Purgatory was in Catholicism.

Please do not fret over it.

The point is that we do not know what exactly happens in the next life. The important thing to remember is that now is the time to repent and strive to reach theosis. We must run the race as long as we have breath.

Lord have mercy.

Okay, sounds reasonable; Also when did this theory first appear? before or after the great schism?

 

[tapi]

Some people outright reject them, some consider them a major part of Orthodox theology, some people choose to focus on more important things. Bottom line is that it's not a dogma of the Church, and therefore all of the aforementioned views are acceptable.

 

[Soderquj]

To many will argue that it can found in writings of the fathers other say it is just a metaphor.

I was told we do not know therefore it is all speculation, I have found no official doctrine on it.

The best explanation of this belief I was given is the before you get to the judgement devils will try to drag you down (exposing your sins) and angles will lift you up. But that was a simple explanation and he ( my priest) told me not to dwell on it as we do not really know. Just follow Christ and be prepared.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

did someone mention toll houses??

 

[RobNJ]

did someone mention toll houses??

Have you NO shame???

Nuts in Toll house cookies?? ANATHEMA!!!!!!!!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Nuts are a small T tradition, Rob, not anathemizable material, bro. Now if they were to put rubarb in them, then you'd have a case!

Have you NO shame???

Nuts in Toll house cookies?? ANATHEMA!!!!!!!!

 

[MariaRegina]

did someone mention toll houses??

Oh, I cannot look, or I will break my diet.
Cannot have that chocolate as I am allergic addictive to it.

My, oh my.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Nuts are a small T tradition, Rob, not anathemizable material, bro. Now if they were to put rubarb in them, then you'd have a case!

 

[Colleen1]

Oh, I cannot look, or I will break my diet.
Cannot have that chocolate as I am allergic addictive to it.

My, oh my.

lol

 

[Colleen1]

Some people outright reject them, some consider them a major part of Orthodox theology, some people choose to focus on more important things. Bottom line is that it's not a dogma of the Church, and therefore all of the aforementioned views are acceptable.

Thanks for your post.

 

[Dorothea]

It seems for the past few years, every few months, this subject comes up. It's become a regular subject to discuss. Ah, it's like having a pair of well-worn slippers.

 

[jckstraw72]

you asked how early they appear -- St. Justin Martyr teaches that demons will come for our souls at death (which he connects to Ps. 22:21), but this is, of course, not a full doctrine of the toll houses. Origen also says that demons wait for us like tax-collectors, and the earliest full exposition (that i know of) is in St. Cyril of Alexandria. Met. Hierotheos Vlachos has a book called "Life After Death" which deals with toll-houses and in which he mentions other Scriptures that the Fathers connected to the toll houses.

 

[ArmyMatt]

you asked how early they appear -- St. Justin Martyr teaches that demons will come for our souls at death, but this is, of course, not a full doctrine of the toll houses. Origen also says that demons wait for us like tax-collectors, and the earliest full exposition (that i know of) is in St. Cyril of Alexandria.

yeah, St Cyril is the earliest place where you will find them clearly described, but they are in the Philokalia, the writings of practically every Church Father who comments on the soul after death, the services, and modern respected theologians like Fr Thomas Hopko, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, and Metropolitan Heirotheos of Nafpaktos.

while not official dogma, there is a clear history of them from the early centuries. many find them dicey because for a spell they did become Latinized as sorta a purgatory esque place, but this is not the original teaching.

I would say as someone coming into Orthodoxy, I would focus on the dogmas and let stuff like the toll houses come later.

 

[Atwood45]

you asked how early they appear -- St. Justin Martyr teaches that demons will come for our souls at death (which he connects to Ps. 22:21), but this is, of course, not a full doctrine of the toll houses. Origen also says that demons wait for us like tax-collectors, and the earliest full exposition (that i know of) is in St. Cyril of Alexandria. Met. Hierotheos Vlachos has a book called "Life After Death" which deals with toll-houses and in which he mentions other Scriptures that the Fathers connected to the toll houses.

so about the early 5th century?

 

[jckstraw72]

so about the early 5th century?

depends on what you're looking for - if you want a full exposition with the numbered toll houses and all that then yeah, but its there in St. Basil, St. Ephraim the Syrian, and some others from the 4th century too, and the Origen reference is pretty unmistakably the toll-houses. Referencing John 14:30, he writes that we shall encounter toll collectors who search us to find something that belongs to them at the end of our lives (Hom. in Luc., 23 [PG 13:1862]).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In some ways, toll houses make sense, in other ways, they don't. Why would God want us to run a gauntlet of demons on our ascent to Heaven? God always seems to try so hard to ensure our victory, why would we pass through one final long road of temptation? Is it to reveal our true, final nature upon death? Is life just a buildup to this final test? Why do demons get such a crack at us? It seems like God wouldn't permit them to have such power, even at the end?

 

[jckstraw72]

they only have the power that we give them. the Saints don't even have to worry about it - they pass right by with no difficulty and the wholly unrepentant have made themselves the property of demons and go straight to Hades. Others pass through the toll-houses where they are accused by demons and defended by their guardian angel and the true state of their soul - whether it inclines towards life or death - is revealed. if you don't want to deal with them then just become a Saint!