Toll houses?

[gurneyhalleck1]

Don't take me wrong, jck. I'm not saying I don't believe in them. I know that many great, pious men far above my level of holiness (which isn't every high) have taught this doctrine. So it's not that I'm trying to avoid it or mock it. I'm simply trying to understand why they're even there? Why are they given reign to badger and try to steal us away up to the last second? Perhaps when the Lord said "the last penny" in Matt 5:26 he meant the toll houses? I'd just like to understand the "why's" of this, for my own journey in search of God. I'm a newbie, so I'm not mocking or criticizing this by a longshot.

they only have the power that we give them. the Saints don't even have to worry about it - they pass right by with no difficulty and the wholly unrepentant have made themselves the property of demons and go straight to Hades. Others pass through the toll-houses where they are accused by demons and defended by their guardian angel and the true state of their soul - whether it inclines towards life or death - is revealed. if you don't want to deal with them then just become a Saint!

 

[jckstraw72]

i guess i don't know exactly how to answer that - i don't really see it is any different than demons messing with us and attacking us in THIS life. the why for both is the same, as far as i can tell. ive always wondered "why WOULDNT they give it one last shot?"

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

well i'm not seeing it as "they" giving one last shot as much as The Lord permitting it. Perhaps He is testing our mettle and the final ascent sums up our lives. An alcoholic will be tempted with a thousand drinks, a inappropriate content addict tempted with strippers, a power-monger with the temptation to rule a world, a racist with the chance to pay back the race he loathes, I don't know. Perhaps it's our final exam of sorts? In any case, a more summative gauntlet journey of strength makes more sense than Catholic purgatory where you're in a proverbial rock-chopping zone wearing a striped outfit paying off a sentence of time served in a type of afterlife Alcatraz.

i guess i don't know exactly how to answer that - i don't really see it is any different than demons messing with us and attacking us in THIS life. the why for both is the same, as far as i can tell. ive always wondered "why WOULDNT they give it one last shot?"

 

[ArmyMatt]

well i'm not seeing it as "they" giving one last shot as much as The Lord permitting it. Perhaps He is testing our mettle and the final ascent sums up our lives. An alcoholic will be tempted with a thousand drinks, a inappropriate content addict tempted with strippers, a power-monger with the temptation to rule a world, a racist with the chance to pay back the race he loathes, I don't know. Perhaps it's our final exam of sorts? In any case, a more summative gauntlet journey of strength makes more sense than Catholic purgatory where you're in a proverbial rock-chopping zone wearing a striped outfit paying off a sentence of time served in a type of afterlife Alcatraz.

I read somewhere that this is the reason. that for the struggling soul, God allows the demons to give one last big test so that the person, as they die and their soul comes before God's Throne, come repentant if they are holding on to any sin or struggle.

it's not a gauntlet of sorts, because you are not beaten or punished because of your sin, you are tested. the same thing happens in this life with the demons, it's just more clear after you repose.

 

[Colleen1]

i guess i don't know exactly how to answer that - i don't really see it is any different than demons messing with us and attacking us in THIS life. the why for both is the same, as far as i can tell. ive always wondered "why WOULDNT they give it one last shot?"

Interesting, I've never thought of things from that perspective before.

 

[Knee V]

I'll agree with jckstraw72's take on it. The demons will try to tempt us until they are simply no longer able.

For others, remember that the essence behind "Toll Houses" (that we are escorted to God by an angel, and that the demons will try to assault us on the way) is found all throughout the hymns and prayers of the Church. Just pray Small Compline at night (10, maybe 15 minutes) and you'll see it.

 

[jckstraw72]

true dat, knee-v

 

[Dorothea]

I'll agree with jckstraw72's take on it. The demons will try to tempt us until they are simply no longer able.

For others, remember that the essence behind "Toll Houses" (that we are escorted to God by an angel, and that the demons will try to assault us on the way) is found all throughout the hymns and prayers of the Church. Just pray Small Compline at night (10, maybe 15 minutes) and you'll see it.

very true.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'll agree with jckstraw72's take on it. The demons will try to tempt us until they are simply no longer able.

For others, remember that the essence behind "Toll Houses" (that we are escorted to God by an angel, and that the demons will try to assault us on the way) is found all throughout the hymns and prayers of the Church. Just pray Small Compline at night (10, maybe 15 minutes) and you'll see it.

I would also add that it is not purgatory in a few aspects:

Purgatory is a place, the toll houses are not a place.

Purgatory purges and punishes people to get rid of sin, the toll houses are the demons trying to get you to hold on to your sins, and the angels, saints, and God trying to tell you to let them go.

Purgatory is for the righteous who are still holding on to sin, the toll houses is for everyone.

Purgatory has time that can be taken off of by indulgences and whatnot, the toll houses are not a timed event in that sense.

bottom line, the toll houses are nothing like Purgatory.

 

[file13]

so about the early 5th century?

The following references appear to predate many (most?) of the Orthodox references:

But I saw in the fourth heaven according to class - I saw the angels resembling gods, the angels bringing a soul out of the land of the dead. They placed it at the gate of the fourth heaven. And the angels were whipping it. The soul spoke, saying, "What sin was it that I committed in the world?" The toll-collector who dwells in the fourth heaven replied, saying, "It was not right to commit all those lawless deeds that are in the world of the dead". The soul replied, saying, "Bring witnesses! Let them show you in what body I committed lawless deeds. Do you wish to bring a book to read from?...Then we went up to the sixth heaven. And I saw my fellow apostles going with me, and the Holy Spirit was leading me before them. And I gazed up on high and saw a great light shining down on the sixth heaven. I spoke, saying to the toll-collector who was in the sixth heaven, "Open to me and the Holy Spirit who is before me." He opened to me.
- The Apocalypse of Paul

Now when James heard these things, he wiped away the tears in his eyes and very bitter [...] which is [...]. The Lord said to him, "James, behold, I shall reveal to you your redemption. When you are seized, and you undergo these sufferings, a multitude will arm themselves against you that <they> may seize you. And in particular three of them will seize you - they who sit (there) as toll collectors. Not only do they demand toll, but they also take away souls by theft. When you come into their power, one of them who is their guard will say to you, 'Who are you or where are you from?' You are to say to him, 'I am a son, and I am from the Father.' He will say to you, 'What sort of son are you, and to what father do you belong?' You are to say to him, 'I am from the Pre-existent Father, and a son in the Pre-existent One.' When he says to you, [...], you are to say to him [...] in the [...] that I might [...]."
- The (First) Apocalypse of James
​

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[Soderquj]

The following references appear to predate many (most?) of the Orthodox references:

But I saw in the fourth heaven according to class - I saw the angels resembling gods, the angels bringing a soul out of the land of the dead. They placed it at the gate of the fourth heaven. And the angels were whipping it. The soul spoke, saying, "What sin was it that I committed in the world?" The toll-collector who dwells in the fourth heaven replied, saying, "It was not right to commit all those lawless deeds that are in the world of the dead". The soul replied, saying, "Bring witnesses! Let them show you in what body I committed lawless deeds. Do you wish to bring a book to read from?...Then we went up to the sixth heaven. And I saw my fellow apostles going with me, and the Holy Spirit was leading me before them. And I gazed up on high and saw a great light shining down on the sixth heaven. I spoke, saying to the toll-collector who was in the sixth heaven, "Open to me and the Holy Spirit who is before me." He opened to me.
- The Apocalypse of Paul

Now when James heard these things, he wiped away the tears in his eyes and very bitter [...] which is [...]. The Lord said to him, "James, behold, I shall reveal to you your redemption. When you are seized, and you undergo these sufferings, a multitude will arm themselves against you that <they> may seize you. And in particular three of them will seize you - they who sit (there) as toll collectors. Not only do they demand toll, but they also take away souls by theft. When you come into their power, one of them who is their guard will say to you, 'Who are you or where are you from?' You are to say to him, 'I am a son, and I am from the Father.' He will say to you, 'What sort of son are you, and to what father do you belong?' You are to say to him, 'I am from the Pre-existent Father, and a son in the Pre-existent One.' When he says to you, [...], you are to say to him [...] in the [...] that I might [...]."
- The (First) Apocalypse of James
​

For more information on dating, please see this and this.

I think these are considered Gnostic texts and should not be trusted.

 

[Protoevangel]

I think these are considered Gnostic texts and should not be trusted.

Absolutely.

But I think file13's purpose was to simply to show the earliest record that he could find of Toll Houses. While the documents he provided have no authority for us as Orthodox, they do show that the belief predates the earliest written Orthodox commentaries on Toll Houses.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Absolutely.

But I think file13's purpose was to simply to show the earliest record that he could find of Toll Houses. While the documents he provided have no authority for us as Orthodox, they do show that the belief predates the earliest written Orthodox commentaries on Toll Houses.

you can also find very toll house esque imagery in the Prophet Zechariah

 

[Colleen1]

you can also find very toll house esque imagery in the Prophet Zechariah

I was wondering if you could explain more of what your thoughts are regarding this.

 

[file13]

I think these are considered Gnostic texts and should not be trusted.

They are Gnostic texts. This is why some Orthodox Christians disregard this teaching as an alien Gnostic intrusion that got assimilated. This isn't my fight of course and I'm not going to argue one way or another, but I did want to point out some of the sources that lead some to reject this view within Orthodoxy.

 

[Soderquj]

They are Gnostic texts. This is why some Orthodox Christians disregard this teaching as an alien Gnostic intrusion that got assimilated. This isn't my fight of course and I'm not going to argue one way or another, but I did want to point out some of the sources that lead some to reject this view within Orthodoxy.

Good point I see where you were going!

 

[jckstraw72]

Met. Hierotheos addresses that. He says, yes, there are similarities, but the God-bearing Fathers were able to take imagery and ideas from their culture and baptize them and use them to teach Orthodoxy. There are also similarities between Orthodoxy and philosophy but yet Orthodoxy is NOT philosophical, nor is it Gnostic, despite some surface similarities. For instance, Origen details the Persian Mithraic ascent of the soul and refutes it, but elsewhere teaches the toll houses. I don't see how we can say that so many Fathers somehow let Gnosticism slip by them when they so fervently fought against Gnosticism. And what does that tell us about their inspiration and illumination by God? It puts it on pretty shaky ground if they couldn't even recognize Gnosticism. If they can't route out something so obviously whacky as Gnosticism then how on earth could we trust them to transmit the intricacies of Trinitarian theology and Christology?! We'd be quite lost.

 

[Dorothea]

Fr. Ted says in his podcast that some Church Fathers, Saints, and theologians have their opinions on what happens after we depart this earth. It's called Theologoumena. Listen to get the Orthodox Church's view on Toll Houses and other beliefs of life after death. It's only 6 mins. and 22 secs.

Theologoumena - iSermon - Ancient Faith Radio

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Fr. Ted says in his podcast that some Church Fathers, Saints, and theologians have their opinions on what happens after we depart this earth. It's called Theologoumena. Listen to get the Orthodox Church's view on Toll Houses and other beliefs of life after death. It's only 6 mins. and 22 secs.

Theologoumena - iSermon - Ancient Faith Radio

Belief in toll houses: all may, some should, none must.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Belief in toll houses: all may, some should, none must.

It just got very Lutheran up in here!