To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

[BeforeThereWas]

I think I'm going to start my own Tither's denomination. Oh wait.... I don't have to! Virtually every denomination in existence believes and teaches tithing already. But all the armchair theologians of the internet know better than their pastors or thousands of years of church history can tell us.
With the overwhelming consensus of leadership proclaiming tithing as valid for the New Testament church, an honest believer should do so out of submission if nothing else. Unless of course, its about the money. Hmmmm.
Why take a chance on being wrong, since all the non-tithers insist it's not about the money, and they all give more than ten percent anyway?
A faithful steward should be pushing well past ten percent and encouraging others to do so, not waging small wars about farmers, slaves, law, and every other non-sensical thing to make the word of God of none effect.

Do you think the tithing doctrine should be given serious consideration on the basis of it being taught by many today, and historically, as if antiquity magically transforms it into something worthy of serious consideration?

What about the Bible? Have you ever thought about reading what the Bible has to say on the subject without sifting it through the strainers of man-made teachings? Does the Bible matter to you people, even in the face of traditional teachings?

Can you show me even ONE instance of wage earners (like you and me), carpenters (hint, hint), fishermen, clothiers, shoe makers, et al, commanded to pay a tithe to the Levites?

Can you show me where Israel ever followed Abraham's example of the tithe?

How can you or anyone else mimic what Abraham did?

How can anyone, with a clear conscience, justify handing over to most of organized religion the primary, largest portion of their giving, knowing full well that most organizations use only the LEFTOVERS from their own expenditures for meeting the needs of fellow believers in need, and the local community, and THEN, turn around and brag that they had given to God?

How is that giving to God when handing over one's giving to something from which they reap direct benefit?

Tell you what, we receive no earthly benefit when giving to the family down the street that lost their job, or the homeless people under the local bridge.

Applying humorous cynicism against those who dare question the pet doctrines of tithing taught in many church organizations that routinely rob God speaks loud volumes to a critical spirit that has yet to be regenerated in Christ Jesus.

The Bible is true, not men. Just because a doctrine that brings financial gain to the receivers has enjoyed broad and historic acceptance for many centuries doesn't make it infallible.

This isn't a matter of being smarter than anyone. It's a matter of letting the Bible speak for itself without the colorful blinders of falsehoods and eisegetical meanderings. If I live in India, surrounded by millions who teach hinduism, that doesn't at all mean they are worthy of serious consideration.

BTW

 

[Yitzchak]

First point. A tithe by definition is 10%. A tithe can be applied to anything.

While the above statement is true, a tenth of just anything is NOT a Biblical tithe. GOD defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33, so if you are paying/giving a tithe to God, God has told you what is His tithe.

In that instance , yes. But if you are familiar with the law of first mention ( a principle of good bible interpretation taught at most Bible colleges) , one cannot just take a scripture at random and say that speaks to the entire doctrine on that given subject. One must begin with the first mention of it in scripture and build from there.

Certainly the teaching of the tithe as given in the law of Moses is instructive , but not all that scripture has to say on the matter. A biblical tithe includes more than just what one passage says.

We have instances where it includes herbs , honey , produce , animals , and money. Kings collected tithes that were not religious tithes , but more like taxes. The scripture speaks about that in Samuel.

As once poster pointed out. We must define the type of tithe we are speaking of in order to have a discussion which compares apples with apples.

Also , I personally do not follow the law of Moses, so the specific instructions given to Israel only apply to me in principle , not in the letter of the law.

Second point. The first time tithing is mentioned in scripture , it includes money.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all

All what? Read the story. Abram was on his way home from a war. He stopped and gave a tenth to Melchizedek from what he confiscated from the war. He essentially was bringing back what had be stolen and returning the goods. This is clarified in Hebrews 7. Abram didn't go home and gather up a tenth of everything he owned and take it back to Melchizedek. There is NO scripture telling us that Abram/Abraham ever tithed from his own income or wealth. None. To use Abram's one-time tenth as an argument for tithing today is both dishonest and not logical.

Nothing dishonest about it at all.

It is the Bible itself which uses Abraham's example when speaking about tithing. First of all , Hebrews uses the plural for the word tithes which suggests that Abraham paid more than one tithe. Second of all , my point was not that this first mention of tithing in the Bible gives the entire doctrine of Tithing. It does however lay the ground work and shows a precedent that tithes can be paid on any kind of gain including money.

I must remind you that the point I was speaking to was to establish the fact that the Bible teaches that tithes can include money. Not to say everything that there is to say about it. By the way , Abraham was not under the law and the tithe that he paid was not paid because of commandment. It was freely given. It is worth noting that Gentile believers follow in the example of the faith of Abraham who gave tithes not out of compulsion because of a law or command. Abraham gave out of a place to faith to honor Melchizedek who is a type of Christ. There is definitely a lot more that can be said here. But bottom line , Abraham for-shadowed giving a tithe to Jesus , our high priest. That one item alone , should give a person a lot to meditate upon with regards to what a Christians attitude should be towards tithing.

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Third point. Jacob made a vow to tithe from all that God would give him , not just certain items.

While Jacob did, in fact, make such a vow, there is NOTHING in the scriptures to show that he ever, in fact, gave a tenth of anything. Furthermore, Jacob said he would give a tenth from all that God would give to him, NOT from his income, and NOT from anything God had already given him.

First , I need to remind you that the point I was making was that the tithe includes money. Clearly Jacob's vow included money. I now have provided two biblical passages which speak about tithing from everything , including money.

With regards to your comments about Jacob's vow.I am not sure if you are trying to establish by some innuendo that Jacob did not keep his vow to God ?? If so , I am not sure what your point is.

Anyway , I think a more relevant line of thought is this. Jacob who was around 15 years old when Abraham died knew his grandfather Abraham and was taught by him. When Jacob came to a place in his life where he wanted to make a vow to God , he made a vow to tithe. The questions that comes to mind is why would Jacob choose that as a vow ? Why a tenth ?

Obviously , Jacob was familiar with the concept or tithing. Perhaps from the culture around him. Kings were likely to have received tithes in his day. But I think in the context given which was worship , we must remember that Jacob received his spiritual training from his grandfather Abraham.

In other words , the obvious conclusion is that Jacob learned about the concept of tithing from his grandfather Abraham. Where did Abraham learn it ?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

We have instances where it includes herbs , honey , produce , animals , and money. Kings collected tithes that were not religious tithes , but more like taxes. The scripture speaks about that in Samuel.

How does what kings did tie into a principle for tithing today, or is that not what your alluding in what you said?

Also , I personally do not follow the law of Moses, so the specific instructions given to Israel only apply to me in principle , not in the letter of the law.

It's the subjective concept of principles that have proven problematic in modern Christendom. Men teach from pulpits such things as "Tithing predates the Law," and yet they say that as if it can be principled into whatever they want their followers to believe about it, never minding that not even Israel followed Abraham's example at any time throughout their history.

It is the Bible itself which uses Abraham's example when speaking about tithing. First of all , Hebrews uses the plural for the word tithes which suggests that Abraham paid more than one tithe.

Yes. Some translators chose to translate it as plural, for whatever reason.

I still don't see how that can be subjectively principled into some sort of teaching that doesn't at all resemble what Abraham did outside of the percentage alone.

Second of all , my point was not that this first mention of tithing in the Bible gives the entire doctrine of Tithing. It does however lay the ground work and shows a precedent that tithes can be paid on any kind of gain including money.

Can you give references for that?

I must remind you that the point I was speaking to was to establish the fact that the Bible teaches that tithes can include money.

ONLY when the appointed place was too far to take the REAL tithe. We should remain consistent at ALL times in what we say the Bible teaches.

..., Abraham for-shadowed giving a tithe to Jesus , our high priest.

That one item alone , should give a person a lot to meditate upon with regards to what a Christians attitude should be towards tithing.

Please explain.

First , I need to remind you that the point I was making was that the tithe includes money. Clearly Jacob's vow included money.

How is Jacob an example to us?

I now have provided two biblical passages which speak about tithing from everything , including money.

Where do you see money in any of it?

BTW

 

[GaryArnold]

But if you are familiar with the law of first mention

More man-made doctrine. There are many things in the Bible where you can find the "first mention," then later mention, included before the law and after the law that don't apply to Christians.

It does however lay the ground work and shows a precedent that tithes can be paid on any kind of gain including money.

Being a retired account and tax auditor, I can tell you that neither Abram nor Jacob's vow had anything to do with "gain" or income.

In all the examples you have listed, the tithe came from ASSETS, not income. But then, obviously you have no accounting background or you would know that.

I must remind you that the point I was speaking to was to establish the fact that the Bible teaches that tithes can include money.

The Biblical tithe could NEVER be money, and the Bible does teach that. That is obviously when reading Leviticus 27:31. You could BUY BACK, or redeem, the tithe of crops for money. You don't buy back money with money. And in Deut. 14:22-27 - you could sell your crops and animals FOR MONEY, put that money in your hand, go to the place the Lord designated, and BUY with that money the food and drink to replace the tithe you sold. Again, that wouldn't make sense if the tithe could be money.

If you fully understand the verse below and not take it out of context, you will see that the tithe could NOT come from anyone's income:
Numbers 18:27 (KJV) “And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.”

A tithe to anyone other than God can be a tenth of whatever you wish. BUT, IF you claim you are tithing TO GOD, then you should respect Him, and tithe according to what HE said HIS tithe was to come from - HIS INCREASE of food from crops and animals, NOT from "your increase."

You don't understand the Biblical tithe.

When God gave the Israelites the promised land, He RESERVED, for Himself, a tenth of the crops and every tenth animal. They NEVER did belong to the Israelites. In other words, the tithe was from God's increase of FOOD, not from man's income. It was a way to distribute FOOD to the Levites and priests who did NOT inherit any land.

No one, not even the farmers, tithed from their income.

The farmers made their income by SELLING and/or barter-exchanging their crops and animals but did NOT tithe on that income.

Today, ALL born-again believers are priests. ALL of us are called to be deciples of the Lord. No one of us is greater than another. Our bodies are the Temple where the Spirit dwells. According to the scriptures, priests do not tithe.

It must make you feel good to call your giving, tithing. I won't insult God that way. I know that nothing I earn is good enough to be called His tithe.

Tithers are braggers. They want to make sure everyone knows they are giving ten percent.

Church leaders have essentially diluted the tithe from God’s miracles to man’s achievements. In other words, in the tithing formula, man has replaced God with himself!

 

[GaryArnold]

Another point - what Abram did wasn't even codified. Under the law, a tithe from war spoils was not allowed. Instead, God required only a small part of a tenth of the spoils and He made it clear how the spoils were to be divided.

In Genesis 14, the word tithe merely means a tenth - it is a mathematical term. HOWEVER, God made His own definition for His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33. What man has a right to change God's definition to whatever you want it to be?

If you want to tithe from your income, fine. Just don't refer to God when you do it as it has NOTHING to do with God's tithe.

 

[Yitzchak]

How does what kings did tie into a principle for tithing today, or is that not what your alluding in what you said?

I do not tithe myself . I believe that we have the freedom in Christ to give what we set in our heart to give. I do believe , however , that there is a blessing to planned giving such as tithing and also a blessing for a vow made and kept to God.

The kings collecting tithes relates to us in the sense that we give to something or someone greater than our self. We give to support the work of God's Kingdom on earth.

It's the subjective concept of principles that have proven problematic in modern Christendom. Men teach from pulpits such things as "Tithing predates the Law," and yet they say that as if it can be principled into whatever they want their followers to believe about it, never minding that not even Israel followed Abraham's example at any time throughout their history.

One of the principles that one of the posters mentioned in this thread is thinking of God first. It is easy in the consumer driven economy of North America to spend it all and drop a few dollars in the offering. I also think that the principle of duty has a place. We should feel the need to be a good steward who has responsibilities. Not just live as though we do not answer to anything but our own pleasure.

But you are correct. It is a general concept and digging out the lessons that the Bible has for us is work which the average pew sitter does note engage in. This leaves an atmosphere where a church leader can say just about anything about a very general principle.

I am thankful that the church I attend resists the urge to micro manage. they point out general principles such as planned giving as a responsible member of the community and then leave the details up to the individual.

Yes. Some translators chose to translate it as plural, for whatever reason.

Your response made me curious and so I got out the Hebrew text and the word is singular.

I still don't see how that can be subjectively principled into some sort of teaching that doesn't at all resemble what Abraham did outside of the percentage alone.

If this was the only reference to a tithe given in the entire Bible , then not too much would be made out of it. But since the concept of the tithe is seen many places throughout the bible and since Hebrews specifically refers to this incident with Abraham , then it sticks out a little more as important.

Can you give references for that?

The initial reference is Genesis chapter 14. genesis 28:22 is the other.

ONLY when the appointed place was too far to take the REAL tithe. We should remain consistent at ALL times in what we say the Bible teaches.

One needs to make a distinction here.

Modern Judaism does not tithe because there is no temple and no Levitical priesthood. They certainly give money to support things but they do not tithe.

But my position is that tithing as a concept was before the law. Tithing simply means to give 10%.

Frogster will cringe to hear me say this. But we cannot take just a part out of the law and leave out the rest. Either we place our self under the law and tithe exactly as the law states or we do not. I vote that we do not.

I do however believe that the concept of tithe exists apart from the law. When Abraham tithed , he did so apart from the law. If a Christian wants to tithe the same way that Abraham did , he can give 10% of his goods to his high priest , Jesus.

Please explain.

You are referring to this

By the way , Abraham was not under the law and the tithe that he paid was not paid because of commandment. It was freely given. It is worth noting that Gentile believers follow in the example of the faith of Abraham who gave tithes not out of compulsion because of a law or command. Abraham gave out of a place to faith to honor Melchizedek who is a type of Christ. There is definitely a lot more that can be said here. But bottom line , Abraham for-shadowed giving a tithe to Jesus , our high priest. That one item alone , should give a person a lot to meditate upon with regards to what a Christians attitude should be towards tithing.

It means that as we follow in the footsteps of Abraham , we are free to tithe as an offering , but not obligated to do so.

Also , if someone wants to make an argument out of it and accuse me of being under some curse , then I answer this way.... I already paid my tithes in Abraham in the same way that Levi did. If we are children of Abraham , which we are, then we have already paid our tithes in the same way as Levi. So whatever blessing there is to tithing , we already have it as Christians. We are blessed with the blessing of Abraham.

Gal 3:7 know ye, then, that those of faith--these are sons of Abraham,

Heb 7:9 and so to speak, through Abraham even Levi who is receiving tithes, hath paid tithes,
Heb 7:10 for he was yet in the loins of the father when Melchisedek met him.

Not everyone will receive that, but it helps me. I like to think that I , as a Christian , am connected to a legacy of faith.

How is Jacob an example to us?

I don't know. I was answering the question that someone posted which asked where the Bible shows that tithing involves money.

Where do you see money in any of it?

BTW

All that God gives to him includes money. The spoil that Abraham would have received included money. Not everyone is a farmer and they did have money back then.

Gen 28:22 then this stone which I have made a standing pillar is a house of God, and all that Thou dost give to me--tithing I tithe to Thee.

 

[New_Wineskin]

NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE pays the Biblical tithe today.

Even with the twisted version of the "tithe" , very few who belong to groups that agree with it actually do so . According to the BArna Group , only 5% of adults tithed ( whether they agreed with it of not ) - barely significant . This goes along with religious beliefs - those that demand something usually do not follow those demands themselves . This is also why the groups that actually "believe" the "new tithe" is for them , the leaders still use their sermon time on the subject ( for those that actually tithe , they should expect their money back from the lazy pulpiteer that cannot think of new material ) .

Time would be better spent on arguing with those in their own groups that "say" they agree with the new tithe into actually obeying they group's bylaws than to argue with those that disagree with the concept . If they convince those not in the group , they gain nothing . Convincing those in their groups would allow for more wasted money to be spent on comfort in their clubhouses .

 

[Yitzchak]

Even with the twisted version of the "tithe" , very few who belong to groups that agree with it actually do so . According to the BArna Group , only 5% of adults tithed ( whether they agreed with it of not ) - barely significant . This goes along with religious beliefs - those that demand something usually do not follow those demands themselves . This is also why the groups that actually "believe" the "new tithe" is for them , the leaders still use their sermon time on the subject ( for those that actually tithe , they should expect their money back from the lazy pulpiteer that cannot think of new material ) .

Time would be better spent on arguing with those in their own groups that "say" they agree with the new tithe into actually obeying they group's bylaws than to argue with those that disagree with the concept . If they convince those not in the group , they gain nothing . Convincing those in their groups would allow for more wasted money to be spent on comfort in their clubhouses .

I have seen similar statistics. The only issue I have with what you are saying is this.

Having been in the Evangelical ranks for a few decades , I have noticed that there are quite a few that tithe for a while and then do not and then do again. I am not sure how to prove the exact figures , but I would venture to say that it is just like in politics. You have the stalwart on either side and then you have the undecided vote that can be swayed.

Which brings me to my issue with what you are saying. I think that the tithing issue can greatly effect a churches budget.

Let's say you have a church of one hundred with 5 tithers. Let's say those tithers pay an average of four hundred a month each. that is 2000 a month.

Now a series on tithing is taught and five more " swing voters " start tithing. Even if just for a while. That doubles the 2000 to 4000 a month.many churches run in the red , but just by a small amount. Their budget might be 7000 a month and they are bringing in 6500. Getting several hundred more even for just a few months is big for a church like that. I would say most churches who are not making budget are making 90% of it. A little push gets it over the top and solves a lot of problems.

I think the reason tithing series work is because the amount of swing voters on the subject is quite large.There are some who believe they should tithe but do not because they feel too much pressure financially and feel guilty that they are not. There are those who are not sure what they believe.

 

[Yitzchak]

Another point - what Abram did wasn't even codified. Under the law, a tithe from war spoils was not allowed. Instead, God required only a small part of a tenth of the spoils and He made it clear how the spoils were to be divided.

In Genesis 14, the word tithe merely means a tenth - it is a mathematical term. HOWEVER, God made His own definition for His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33. What man has a right to change God's definition to whatever you want it to be?

If you want to tithe from your income, fine. Just don't refer to God when you do it as it has NOTHING to do with God's tithe.

The book of Hebrews is scripture which means that it is the word of God. Therefore God himself calls what Abraham did a tithe. So as far as God's definition of a tithe , That includes what Abraham did as recorded in Genesis 14.

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Which brings me to my issue with what you are saying. I think that the tithing issue can greatly effect a churches budget.

With all due respect , that has nothing to do with the thread . The thread concerns whether a "tithe" is required of christians . Either it is or it isn't . The thread is dealing with a sin/salvation issue - not a budget issue ( even though the budget would be affected ) . If it is a sin/salvation issue , the priority is the relationship between people and the Lord - the budget be damned .

You are discussing membership dues . If the people want to have certain things , they can divide the expenses and say that all members must pay that much as dues according to whatever timeline they wish . If the dues are too high , they need to trim the budget .

To say that a budget would be in jeopardy if people do not give a certain amount and then manufacture a "command from God" would prove complete deception on the leadership of that group . It would also show the complete dependance on human leadership for the members of the group who claim to be christians who have the Lord as their god .

I think the reason tithing series work is because the amount of swing voters on the subject is quite large.There are some who believe they should tithe but do not because they feel too much pressure financially and feel guilty that they are not. There are those who are not sure what they believe.

Should they not believe what their group tells them to believe ? And , should those who believe and not obey confess it as sin to the rest of the group and request forgveness and help ?

 

[Frogster]

The book of Hebrews is scripture which means that it is the word of God. Therefore God himself calls what Abraham did a tithe. So as far as God's definition of a tithe , That includes what Abraham did as recorded in Genesis 14.

You mentioned above in the other post, that Abraham tithed more than once. Highly unlikely, because the writer was using the tithe issue to show how great Mel was, that even the patriarch Abraham showed subordination by tithing, and even the levite priesthood through his loins, said mataphorically tithed, subordinated..it was about subordination in 7, introducing the greater high priest. The lesser Abe, was blessed, 7:7, by the greater.


Point being, if Abe tithed alot, that would take away from the special act, like Abraham always tithed, minimizing the special event, and the special Mel, that Abe tithed to.

These verses prove it, Mel was even greater than the mighty Abraham, so at that one time, he showed subordination at this special encounter, this keep in mind, was the introduction of the greater high priest and the education about his greatness and him being greater than even Abraham, Abrahm was used to bring out the greater Melchizedek, the tithing issue was used to show that he was even greater than Abraham. It would be counterproductive in the point of chapter 7, if Abraham tithed often, it would cheapen it. Not to mention, that was quite an occasion in Gen 14 also, no reason to think it was a common event ever repeated.



4 See how great this man was to whom Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the spoils!



7 It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by the superior. 8 In the one case tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives.

 

[Frogster]

.

 

[psalms 91]

Wow another tithing thread, I tithe I amblessed because of it and I will let you all discuss and debate but as for me I will continue to tithe

 

[Frogster]

I do not tithe myself . I believe that we have the freedom in Christ to give what we set in our heart to give. I do believe , however , that there is a blessing to planned giving such as tithing and also a blessing for a vow made and kept to God.

The kings collecting tithes relates to us in the sense that we give to something or someone greater than our self. We give to support the work of God's Kingdom on earth.





One of the principles that one of the posters mentioned in this thread is thinking of God first. It is easy in the consumer driven economy of North America to spend it all and drop a few dollars in the offering. I also think that the principle of duty has a place. We should feel the need to be a good steward who has responsibilities. Not just live as though we do not answer to anything but our own pleasure.

But you are correct. It is a general concept and digging out the lessons that the Bible has for us is work which the average pew sitter does note engage in. This leaves an atmosphere where a church leader can say just about anything about a very general principle.

I am thankful that the church I attend resists the urge to micro manage. they point out general principles such as planned giving as a responsible member of the community and then leave the details up to the individual.





Your response made me curious and so I got out the Hebrew text and the word is singular.



If this was the only reference to a tithe given in the entire Bible , then not too much would be made out of it. But since the concept of the tithe is seen many places throughout the bible and since Hebrews specifically refers to this incident with Abraham , then it sticks out a little more as important.





The initial reference is Genesis chapter 14. genesis 28:22 is the other.





One needs to make a distinction here.

Modern Judaism does not tithe because there is no temple and no Levitical priesthood. They certainly give money to support things but they do not tithe.

But my position is that tithing as a concept was before the law. Tithing simply means to give 10%.

Frogster will cringe to hear me say this. But we cannot take just a part out of the law and leave out the rest. Either we place our self under the law and tithe exactly as the law states or we do not. I vote that we do not.

I do however believe that the concept of tithe exists apart from the law. When Abraham tithed , he did so apart from the law. If a Christian wants to tithe the same way that Abraham did , he can give 10% of his goods to his high priest , Jesus.





You are referring to this



It means that as we follow in the footsteps of Abraham , we are free to tithe as an offering , but not obligated to do so.

Also , if someone wants to make an argument out of it and accuse me of being under some curse , then I answer this way.... I already paid my tithes in Abraham in the same way that Levi did. If we are children of Abraham , which we are, then we have already paid our tithes in the same way as Levi. So whatever blessing there is to tithing , we already have it as Christians. We are blessed with the blessing of Abraham.

just for conversation, (red above) as far as levi paying from the loins, note the wordage, it was symbolism..."one might even say", or "it is as if", kind of wordage, showing that it was not literally meant.



ESV 7:9 One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,




NASB 7:9 And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes,

Not everyone will receive that, but it helps me. I like to think that I , as a Christian , am connected to a legacy of faith.






I don't know. I was answering the question that someone posted which asked where the Bible shows that tithing involves money.





All that God gives to him includes money. The spoil that Abraham would have received included money. Not everyone is a farmer and they did have money back then.

 

[GaryArnold]

There is error in saying that Abram tithed out of faith. The scriptures do not tell us WHY Abram gave the tenth. However, Biblical historians DO tell us why. They say that during the days of Abraham it was custom or law of the land to give a tenth of war spoils to the king. To say one way or the other is to add to the scriptures.

If we are to do what Abram did, we would give a tenth of war spoils, ONE TIME during our life, to a king. Giving a tenth of one's income to the church in no ways copies what Abram did.

Tithes given to kings were taxes. Even the Levitical tithe given to the Levites can be seen as a tax.

Here are some similarities between a tax and the tithe:

Tithe - paid by those who inherited the promised land.
Inheritance or Estate tax - paid from the estate or inheritance.

Tithe - ONLY on property owners.
Property tax - ONLY on property owners.

Tithe - used to run the theocracy.
Income tax - used to run the government.

Tithe - doesn't apply to the poor.
Luxury tax - doesn't apply to the poor.

Tithing can also be compared to sharecropping.

Tithing was always taxation so that the programs of the government could run: the priestly program, the national religious program, and the welfare program.
Taken from God’s Plan for Giving, John MacArthur, Moody Press, 1985, page 76.

God placed all of these verses in our Bibles to remind us that Levites were public officials of the state and tithes were included as state-taxation to support them.
Taken from Should the Church Teach Tithing, Russell E. Kelly, Ph.D., page 70.

Even the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica, agrees that tithes were political taxes.
Taken from Should the Church Teach Tithing, Russell E. Kelly, Ph.D., page 71.

See also William Hendriksen and Simon J. Kistemaker, New Testament Commentary: Exposition of Thessalonians, the Pastorals, and Hebrews (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1995), 187, for support of the relationship between taxes and tithing.

We already "pay our tithes" and much more when we pay our taxes. Part of those taxes are used to make welfare payment to the poor, to give food stamps to those who need assistance, etc. etc. etc.

No tithes paid in the Bible were paid to further God's Kingdom.

 

[Frogster]

There is error in saying that Abram tithed out of faith. The scriptures do not tell us WHY Abram gave the tenth. However, Biblical historians DO tell us why. They say that during the days of Abraham it was custom or law of the land to give a tenth of war spoils to the king. To say one way or the other is to add to the scriptures.

If we are to do what Abram did, we would give a tenth of war spoils, ONE TIME during our life, to a king. Giving a tenth of one's income to the church in no ways copies what Abram did.

Tithes given to kings were taxes. Even the Levitical tithe given to the Levites can be seen as a tax.

Here are some similarities between a tax and the tithe:

Tithe - paid by those who inherited the promised land.
Inheritance or Estate tax - paid from the estate or inheritance.

Tithe - ONLY on property owners.
Property tax - ONLY on property owners.

Tithe - used to run the theocracy.
Income tax - used to run the government.

Tithe - doesn't apply to the poor.
Luxury tax - doesn't apply to the poor.

Tithing can also be compared to sharecropping.

Tithing was always taxation so that the programs of the government could run: the priestly program, the national religious program, and the welfare program.
Taken from God’s Plan for Giving, John MacArthur, Moody Press, 1985, page 76.

God placed all of these verses in our Bibles to remind us that Levites were public officials of the state and tithes were included as state-taxation to support them.
Taken from Should the Church Teach Tithing, Russell E. Kelly, Ph.D., page 70.

Even the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica, agrees that tithes were political taxes.
Taken from Should the Church Teach Tithing, Russell E. Kelly, Ph.D., page 71.

See also William Hendriksen and Simon J. Kistemaker, New Testament Commentary: Exposition of Thessalonians, the Pastorals, and Hebrews (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1995), 187, for support of the relationship between taxes and tithing.

We already "pay our tithes" and much more when we pay our taxes. Part of those taxes are used to make welfare payment to the poor, to give food stamps to those who need assistance, etc. etc. etc.

No tithes paid in the Bible were paid to further God's Kingdom.

i just personally think that though kings got tithes etc, it would take away from the special usage hebrews spoke of, if Abe tithed to other kings. It would sort of put melchizedek on the same ground as the pagan kings.

 

[Frogster]

and needless to say, if the writer was trying to show the hebrews to give the church money, using heb 7, that would have totally confused them, in their already confused condition, to try to make them now 'tithe" to the church, using the temple laws, the temple that they were writing against.

The recipients would have wondered why temple laws, apply to non temple activities.

tithers try to act like heb 7, teached us tithe, all while that would go against the context of 7, and the meaning of 7.

 

[Svt4Him]

Wow another tithing thread, I tithe I amblessed because of it and I will let you all discuss and debate but as for me I will continue to tithe

Excellent, so you give the tenth animal that passes under a pole then you take it to the church and eat it?

 

[Yitzchak]

You mentioned above in the other post, that Abraham tithed more than once. Highly unlikely, because the writer was using the tithe issue to show how great Mel was, that even the patriarch Abraham showed subordination by tithing, and even the levite priesthood through his loins, said mataphorically tithed, subordinated..it was about subordination in 7, introducing the greater high priest. The lesser Abe, was blessed, 7:7, by the greater.


Point being, if Abe tithed alot, that would take away from the special act, like Abraham always tithed, minimizing the special event, and the special Mel, that Abe tithed to.

These verses prove it, Mel was even greater than the mighty Abraham, so at that one time, he showed subordination at this special encounter, this keep in mind, was the introduction of the greater high priest and the education about his greatness and him being greater than even Abraham, Abrahm was used to bring out the greater Melchizedek, the tithing issue was used to show that he was even greater than Abraham. It would be counterproductive in the point of chapter 7, if Abraham tithed often, it would cheapen it. Not to mention, that was quite an occasion in Gen 14 also, no reason to think it was a common event ever repeated.

I admit , if I take just the Genesis 14 account by itself , I would see it as a one time event. I am not dogmatic on the point , but I don't think that it is obvious that it was a one time event. Trying to build doctrine on an area that scripture is silent upon is risky business.

The strongest point I can see for saying it was a one time event is that Abraham would have had to have someone to pay the tithe to. Unless Melchizedek was hanging around the region , all the time , then who would Abraham have paid his tithes to ?

I can see both sides.

4 See how great this man was to whom Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the spoils!



7 It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by the superior. 8 In the one case tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives.

I think the main point of Hebrew 7 is that Levi would have paid tithes to a superior priest than themselves. The passage is showing us that there is a better priesthood than the Levites.If Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek , then Melchizedek is the superior priest.

I think that one of the main messages is that the tithe paid in faith is better than a tithe paid under law ( commandment ). Abraham for shadowed for us , that whatever tithing is to be done is done to Jesus and is done by faith. We are free from the requirements of the tithe made under the law.

But also , if Abraham can tithe in faith , then so can we.

 

[GaryArnold]

I think the main point of Hebrew 7 is that Levi would have paid tithes to a superior priest than themselves. The passage is showing us that there is a better priesthood than the Levites.If Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek , then Melchizedek is the superior priest.

I think that one of the main messages is that the tithe paid in faith is better than a tithe paid under law ( commandment ). Abraham for shadowed for us , that whatever tithing is to be done is done to Jesus and is done by faith. We are free from the requirements of the tithe made under the law.

But also , if Abraham can tithe in faith , then so can we.

Point 1 - Where do the scriptures tell us that Abram tithed in faith? You are making an assumption which contradicts what Biblical historians say.

Point 2 - Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to Jesus by giving it to their pastor or church?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God. After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God. Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe. God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if a pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Just because you say you are giving your tithe to Jesus doesn't mean He accepts it since God did give the Levites permission to receive His tithe, but nowhere in the scriptures has God given any church or pastor permission to receive His tithe. You could just as well give anyone you want a tenth of your income and claim you have tithed to God.