To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

[GaryArnold]

 

[GaryArnold]

@DMW - First, not all denominations teach tithing. Next, not even all Baptist pastors teach tithing today.

Next, you need to study the history of tithing. NO CHRISTIAN CHURCH ever taught anyone to tithe money from their income, as it is taught today, until THE LATE 1800s. That is documented in history.

You believe everyone should submit to whatever their pastor teaches?? I'd rather submit to God and His Word than to false teachers as you obviously do.

NOT being a tither, and being Spirit led, I give much more than a mere tenth of my income.

Pastors who teach tithing today are either being dishonest, or just plain ignorant as to what the scriptures teach. I happen to personally know both types of pastors - the ignorant, and the dishonest.

 

[Frogster]

I think I'm going to start my own Tither's denomination. Oh wait.... I don't have to! Virtually every denomination in existence believes and teaches tithing already. But all the armchair theologians of the internet know better than their pastors or thousands of years of church history can tell us.
With the overwhelming consensus of leadership proclaiming tithing as valid for the New Testament church, an honest believer should do so out of submission if nothing else. Unless of course, its about the money. Hmmmm.
Why take a chance on being wrong, since all the non-tithers insist it's not about the money, and they all give more than ten percent anyway?
A faithful steward should be pushing well past ten percent and encouraging others to do so, not waging small wars about farmers, slaves, law, and every other non-sensical thing to make the word of God of none effect.

POST NT SCRIPTURE, THAT BINDS US TO THE TITHING LAWS, THAT ARE FROM A TEMPLE THAT DOES NOT EXIST, A TEMPLE THAT GENTILES DID NOT TITHE TOO?

 

[Frogster]

Show me a denarius.

THAT WAS GOVERNMENT...

 

[jamadan]

I think I'm going to start my own Tither's denomination. Oh wait.... I don't have to! Virtually every denomination in existence believes and teaches tithing already. But all the armchair theologians of the internet know better than their pastors or thousands of years of church history can tell us.
With the overwhelming consensus of leadership proclaiming tithing as valid for the New Testament church, an honest believer should do so out of submission if nothing else. Unless of course, its about the money. Hmmmm.
Why take a chance on being wrong, since all the non-tithers insist it's not about the money, and they all give more than ten percent anyway?
A faithful steward should be pushing well past ten percent and encouraging others to do so, not waging small wars about farmers, slaves, law, and every other non-sensical thing to make the word of God of none effect.

interesting. you're making claims about who teaches tithing and for how long that have absolutely no basis kind in fact. I suggest you do a little research, then come back to discuss when you're a little more educated. as it stands its obvious you haven't even bothered to read some of the information on this thread before posting something like that.

 

[DMW]

@DMW - First, not all denominations teach tithing. Next, not even all Baptist pastors teach tithing today.

Next, you need to study the history of tithing. NO CHRISTIAN CHURCH ever taught anyone to tithe money from their income, as it is taught today, until THE LATE 1800s. That is documented in history.

You believe everyone should submit to whatever their pastor teaches?? I'd rather submit to God and His Word than to false teachers as you obviously do.

NOT being a tither, and being Spirit led, I give much more than a mere tenth of my income.

Pastors who teach tithing today are either being dishonest, or just plain ignorant as to what the scriptures teach. I happen to personally know both types of pastors - the ignorant, and the dishonest.

First, I didn't say all denoms, but virtually all. This is a fact.

Second, your wrong about history. Note just this one source, a Barna article.

While the New Testament contains no explicit command to tithe, many have argued that this relationship between the Levites and the other tribes of Israel prefigures how Christians should provide for their ministers. This view of tithing, known as parallelism, gained prominence in the church around the sixth century.

Many non-Jewish and pre-Christian societies also practiced tithing-like giving. Some ancient sources describe how kings imposed a type of first-fruits tax to maintain holy shrines and support clergy. From Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonia to the temples of Apollo in Delphi and Athena in Athens, pre-Christian centers of worship collected tithes for their gods. Ancient cultures as disparate as the Greeks and Chinese—including the Arabians, Phoenicians, Romans, and Carthaginians—gave in ways mirroring the tithe. Some scholars believe ancient cultures hit on the seemingly arbitrary figure of one-tenth because they often did calculations on their fingers.

The early church's views on tithing foreshadowed many of today's stewardship debates. The Eastern Church began tithing out of obligation because they believed Jesus' conversation with the rich young man demanded sacrificial generosity. Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeus pleaded with the church to surpass even the Old Testament tithe since Christ had freed them from the Law.

Later church fathers—John Chrysostom, Cyprian, Origen, and Augustine among them—complained from time to time that their followers lacked Christian charity. Chrysostom even shamed his stingy church for marveling at those who tithed. He contrasted their amazement with the dutiful giving of Old Testament Jews.
The early church's expectation that every Christian would tithe found formal expression at the Synod of Mâçon in 585, which embedded the practice in canon law. A millennium later, the Council of Trent sharpened this law's teeth: it provided for excommunication if any Catholic declined to contribute his tithe. This, despite the stain in the Church's monetary record that Luther had so recently uncovered in his critique of papal indulgences.
Barna's data shows that only 3 percent of adults contributed 10 percent of their 2002 income to churches, which marks a 62 percent decrease from 2001 when 8 percent of American adults tithed. Among born-again Christians, the decline was similarly steep, from 14 percent in 2001 to 6 percent in 2002. Barna attributes the sudden drop to a variety of factors, including the soft economy and ongoing terrorism threat. But he also pegs shifting church demographics—younger adults don't share their parents' and grandparents' convictions about tithing.

Post-Reformation Europe, however, didn't do much better: in the centuries after Luther, secular governments often acted on behalf of the churches by collecting mandatory tithes. These more closely resembled American property taxes than Jewish monetary offerings.

Without a state-imposed tithe, giving in the United States developed quite differently than in Europe. American church leaders have often emphasized the New Testament's command to give freely and cheerfully, which some leaders have cited to advocate giving less or even more than ten percent. As a result, tithing has been practiced only sporadically in the modern church, though some revival has been seen in recent decades among Baptists and elements of the Wesleyan holiness movement and Pentecostalism.

Still, Barna's new research reveals that the vast majority of Christians apparently remain unmoved by the message of John Bunyan's couplet: "There was a man, some called him mad; The more he gave, the more he had."

Third, should we believe something because our pastor tells us? Yes. Unless you can prove them wrong, they are set in place by the Holy Spirit to teach and bring direction and correction to the church. This is the prescribed method by God, not preacher assassination via the internet. Is God using internet forums to lead the church?

Like most non-tithers, you make the heady claim that you give well beyond the ten percent. But any church accountant will confirm what Barna reported in the article above. Not many are giving any where near a tithe.

Finally, after accusing me of spreading lies for my attempt at humor earlier, you now accuse my pastor, and countless thousands of pastors around the world of lying to their congregations because they love money and are apparently misleading them to get in their pockets.

If this is the case, we've got bigger problems tithing.

 

[GaryArnold]

A study of church history will show that at some point, probably around the year 600, the churches brought back the teaching of tithing, but only as voluntary giving, and still just on the crops, herds, and flocks, right out of the Old Testament. Since they didn't teach it as a "biblical tithe," they were able to change the rules to make it fit the needs of the church. By the middle of the 13th century, the Church's claim to tithes was extended to include the poultry of the yard and the cattle of the stall, to the catch of fish and the game of the forests. Had tithing in the Old Testament been on everything as some have claimed, there would have been no need to expand the definition.

My research shows that tithing was first taught and collected by churches in the United States during the second half of the 1800s. Had tithing always been required, why was it not until the late 1800s that the churches in the United States started collecting tithes? And even then, the teaching of tithing was not consistent between churches. It wasn't until recent years that churches started teaching that you tithe on your income, or gross income.

My research shows that during the late 1800s some churches taught that men were to
tithe a larger amount than women, that no tithing was required for those under the age of 18, and once you reached the age of 65 you no longer were required to tithe. At times tithing was based on the value of property owned. Those who didn't own property didn't tithe. They gave freewill offerings. In one case I found the church council members voted to change tithing to income because it would bring in 2.6 times as much money. The problem is, all this was taught as biblical. In many cases, if not most, today's tithing teacher is merely teaching was he/she was taught. Many who later do their own in-depth research have repented and no longer teach that tithing is required today.

Recommended reading:

IN PURSUIT OF THE ALMIGHT’S DOLLAR: A History of Money and American
Protestantism by James Hudnut-Beumler.

A HISTORY OF TITHES by the Rev. Henry William Clarke, B.A.

HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH by Philip Schaff.

 

[GaryArnold]

Like most non-tithers, you make the heady claim that you give well beyond the ten percent. But any church accountant will confirm what Barna reported in the article above. Not many are giving any where near a tithe.

I give directly to those in need. NOT ONE PENNY to any organized corporation doing business as a church.

How about reading the scriptures instead of Barna? Or is that too hard for you? Or is it that the scriptures don't back up your own beliefs?

 

[GaryArnold]

NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE pays the Biblical tithe today.

THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe: to support the Levitical Priesthood.

SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take to the yearly feasts.
Purpose of this tithe: “that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always”

THIRD TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:28-29: aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.
Purpose of this tithe: to feed the poor.

Now, tell me. Which of the above three tithes commanded by God does anyone follow today?

 

[Faulty]

I think I'm going to start my own Tither's denomination. Oh wait.... I don't have to! Virtually every denomination in existence believes and teaches tithing already. But all the armchair theologians of the internet know better than their pastors or thousands of years of church history can tell us.
With the overwhelming consensus of leadership proclaiming tithing as valid for the New Testament church, an honest believer should do so out of submission if nothing else. Unless of course, its about the money. Hmmmm.
Why take a chance on being wrong, since all the non-tithers insist it's not about the money, and they all give more than ten percent anyway?
A faithful steward should be pushing well past ten percent and encouraging others to do so, not waging small wars about farmers, slaves, law, and every other non-sensical thing to make the word of God of none effect.

Armchair theologians? You got any more insult attempts you'd like to throw out there?

You ask why take a chance at being wrong. I say, why are you taking that chance? Your way binds people under the Law, which binds people to the curse of the Law if they do not fulfill all of it perfectly, including tithing.

By the way, the tithe went to the storehouse of the Temple. Since our bodies are now the Temple of God, wouldn't the storehouse for my money be my bank account? (If the tithe were money as it is preached now, but was not when it was in effect.)

Some might be interested in this, a recent biblical rebuttal of the newest Robert Morris teaching that "we're all cursed if we don't tithe the very, very first 10% of everything" book, The Blessed Life.

Fighting for the Faith: A Biblical Rebuttal of The Blessed Life by Robert Morris

 

[DMW]

How about reading the scriptures instead of Barna? Or is that too hard for you? Or is it that the scriptures don't back up your own beliefs?


How about supporting an organized church, like the Bible tells us to? It doesn't take Barna to tell us that. Thats your assignment. Go find out where and who we are to support, along with the poor.

 

[GaryArnold]

How about supporting an organized church, like the Bible tells us to?

Scripture please! Where the heck does the Bible tell us to support an organized church?

WE are the church. The born-again believers. WE are to help each other. Please show me even ONE verse where we are told, in the scriptures, to support an organized church.

You have been brainwashed by the organized corporation doing business as a church.

 

[Strong in Him]

How about supporting an organized church, like the Bible tells us to?

It doesn't.

 

[GloryBe!]

I think I'm going to start my own Tither's denomination. Oh wait.... I don't have to! Virtually every denomination in existence believes and teaches tithing already. But all the armchair theologians of the internet know better than their pastors or thousands of years of church history can tell us.
With the overwhelming consensus of leadership proclaiming tithing as valid for the New Testament church, an honest believer should do so out of submission if nothing else. Unless of course, its about the money. Hmmmm.
Why take a chance on being wrong, since all the non-tithers insist it's not about the money, and they all give more than ten percent anyway?
A faithful steward should be pushing well past ten percent and encouraging others to do so, not waging small wars about farmers, slaves, law, and every other non-sensical thing to make the word of God of none effect.

Small minds attack that which it does not understand. You are obviously much more comfortable as a follower than a leader. I see no Scripture or red letters as backup to your belief. Your "proof" is because everybody else is doing it. The phrase "jumping off a cliff" comes to mind... Of course, it makes no matter to me what you choose to do with the money you earn, although, it does sadden me Why you do it.

 

[GloryBe!]

How about supporting an organized church, like the Bible tells us to? It doesn't take Barna to tell us that. Thats your assignment. Go find out where and who we are to support, along with the poor.

Uh... organized church?? You've GOT to be joking! The disciples met in fields and houses, over dinner, and while fishing. They ate what they caught, and what was given to them, and they gave in return.

"Love the lord thy God, and love thy neighbor as thyself". "When I was thirsty, you gave me drink".

 

[Yitzchak]

First of all , with regard to a tithe being money or not...

First point. A tithe by definition is 10%. A tithe can be applied to anything. !0% of anything is a tithe of that thing.

Second point. The first time tithing is mentioned in scripture , it includes money. According to the law of first mention which says that the first time something is mentioned in scripture , it begins to establish the foundation of that particular doctrine. We can see here in the first mention that tithing is not only under the law and that it does include a tithe of all things including money.

Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all

Third point. Jacob made a vow to tithe from all that God would give him , not just certain items. Jacob became Israel.

Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

The concept of tithe is not limited to the law and is not limited to only certain items....

 

[GaryArnold]

First point. A tithe by definition is 10%. A tithe can be applied to anything.

While the above statement is true, a tenth of just anything is NOT a Biblical tithe. GOD defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33, so if you are paying/giving a tithe to God, God has told you what is His tithe.

Second point. The first time tithing is mentioned in scripture , it includes money.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all

All what? Read the story. Abram was on his way home from a war. He stopped and gave a tenth to Melchizedek from what he confiscated from the war. He essentially was bringing back what had be stolen and returning the goods. This is clarified in Hebrews 7. Abram didn't go home and gather up a tenth of everything he owned and take it back to Melchizedek. There is NO scripture telling us that Abram/Abraham ever tithed from his own income or wealth. None. To use Abram's one-time tenth as an argument for tithing today is both dishonest and not logical.

Third point. Jacob made a vow to tithe from all that God would give him , not just certain items.

While Jacob did, in fact, make such a vow, there is NOTHING in the scriptures to show that he ever, in fact, gave a tenth of anything. Furthermore, Jacob said he would give a tenth from all that God would give to him, NOT from his income, and NOT from anything God had already given him.

The Bible clearly shows that the tithe ENDED at the cross in the Book of Hebrews. The ONLY place in the Bible, after Calvary, that tithing appears is in Hebrews 7. In the first nine verses of Hebrews 7 the words tenth or tithes appears SEVEN TIMES.

Hebrews 7:5 (KJV) “And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:”

Verse 5 is the first occurrence of the words TITHES, COMMANDMENT and LAW.

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV) “For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”

Hebrews 7:18 (KJV) “For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.”

The word COMMANDMENT in verse 18 must be referring to the word COMMANDMENT in verse 5 which is referring to the tithe.

Therefore, the COMMANDMENT to TITHE was disannulled.

Stuck on tithe = stuck on the Old Testament. Colossians 2:14 (KJV) - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Galatians 5:18 (KJV) - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

God gave us His definition for His tithe. Man has changed it. I will follow God while you tithers continue to follow man.

 

[Frogster]

First of all , with regard to a tithe being money or not...

First point. A tithe by definition is 10%. A tithe can be applied to anything. !0% of anything is a tithe of that thing.

Second point. The first time tithing is mentioned in scripture , it includes money. According to the law of first mention which says that the first time something is mentioned in scripture , it begins to establish the foundation of that particular doctrine. We can see here in the first mention that tithing is not only under the law and that it does include a tithe of all things including money.



Third point. Jacob made a vow to tithe from all that God would give him , not just certain items. Jacob became Israel.




The concept of tithe is not limited to the law and is not limited to only certain items....

jacob said IF..god does something, he will tithe, Jacob wanted some gain first, sounds like he was trying to get first, personally, that is not a way to ask God, i will if you will kind of thing, besides, how did he tithe, how often, where?

Gen 28:20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat and clothing to wear, 21 so that I come again to my father's house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God, 22 and this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God's house. And of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you.”

 

[Frogster]

How about reading the scriptures instead of Barna? Or is that too hard for you? Or is it that the scriptures don't back up your own beliefs?


How about supporting an organized church, like the Bible tells us to? It doesn't take Barna to tell us that. Thats your assignment. Go find out where and who we are to support, along with the poor.

Barna's book really sold, in fact, there is even a home church link right here on the forum because they are popular.


http://www.christianforums.com/f473/

 

[Frogster]

Armchair theologians? You got any more insult attempts you'd like to throw out there?

You ask why take a chance at being wrong. I say, why are you taking that chance? Your way binds people under the Law, which binds people to the curse of the Law if they do not fulfill all of it perfectly, including tithing.

By the way, the tithe went to the storehouse of the Temple. Since our bodies are now the Temple of God, wouldn't the storehouse for my money be my bank account? (If the tithe were money as it is preached now, but was not when it was in effect.)

Some might be interested in this, a recent biblical rebuttal of the newest Robert Morris teaching that "we're all cursed if we don't tithe the very, very first 10% of everything" book, The Blessed Life.

Fighting for the Faith: A Biblical Rebuttal of The Blessed Life by Robert Morris

good post, and also, Morris should tell his texan pork bbq eating congregation, that they are under a curse for breaking the mosaic code on food, catfish eating and shrimp eating too, but he won't tell them that, because he will turn away customers who give him money.

not that we are, as u know, but according to his playbook, wielding a curse for the tithing ordinance, he would have to include the food laws too.