To those who don't believe in eternal security...

[razzelflabben]

But God knowing does not negate man's free will! All have a choice to believe God or not.

that is exactly my point and I have yet to find a single passage that says or even suggests that free will disappears when we believe unto salvation. You see, in order to negate Non OSAS belief as is commonly taught (as far as I can tell) and is taught in scripture it is necessary to show at least one passage that tells us that we no longer have free will when we believe unto salvation <staff edit>

 

[razzelflabben]

<staff edit>
Most everyone I know is a non OSASer and I have been in many discussions on these boards as well and so far the only ones I know that proclaim any one sin can rob us of our salvation is the OSASers trying to dismiss non OSAS believers....I'm anxious for someone to prove me wrong...even introduce me to one of these non OSASers who believe that a single sin can rob us of our salvation, but non of you all will, which seems curious if that is the mainstream belief...I mean, if it is what all non OSAS ers believe why can't you produce even one non OSAS er who believes it?

 

[Vicomte13]

Why do you believe that salvation is based on the amount or quality of faith and trust we have, and not on the object of our faith, as the Bible teaches?

I don't believe that because Jesus, in the Bible, doesn't teach that. Jesus teaches that you have to follow and keep following. And that you can fall aside - see all his letters to the Asian Churches.

I acknowledge that Paul certainly seems to often say what you are saying.

In this, there is a conflict between Paul and Jesus. You choose to round off in favor of Paul. I choose to round off in favor of Jesus.

 

[Vicomte13]

even introduce me to one of these non OSASers who believe that a single sin can rob us of our salvation,

Be Christian. Murder somebody. Go to the lake of fire at the Resurrection and judgment, unless you've been forgiven by being completely forgiving.

Jesus casts down the lampstands of those who do not stay with him.

 

[Winken]

I don't believe that because Jesus, in the Bible, doesn't teach that. Jesus teaches that you have to follow and keep following. And that you can fall aside - see all his letters to the Asian Churches.

I acknowledge that Paul certainly seems to often say what you are saying.

In this, there is a conflict between Paul and Jesus. You choose to round off in favor of Paul. I choose to round off in favor of Jesus.

.......and therein lies the reason for "points of view" with regard to Scripture. Scripture, "rightly divided," clarifies that Jesus taught the Jews in accordance with "Promised Messiah" theology, and Paul taught in accordance with the Cross and the mission thereafter given to him for Jew and non-Jew. No "points of view," just comprehending the audience / context.

How can those who name the Name of Jesus as Savior disagree (as throughout "Christian" forums? How?)

 

[South Bound]

I don't believe that because Jesus, in the Bible, doesn't teach that. Jesus teaches that you have to follow and keep following. And that you can fall aside - see all his letters to the Asian Churches.

I acknowledge that Paul certainly seems to often say what you are saying.

In this, there is a conflict between Paul and Jesus. You choose to round off in favor of Paul. I choose to round off in favor of Jesus.

In your opinion You didn't cite even one verse to refute anything I said

 

[aiki]

As Scripture plainly states, the salvation of anyone is entirely God's doing. He saves us. We don't save ourselves. And God moved to save us, not when we had already begun to move toward Him, or when we were by our own righteous deeds deserving of His efforts to save us, but when we were enemies toward God and alienated from Him, when we were dead in trespasses and sins. Our sinful rebellion toward God did not forestall His saving work, it did not prevent Him from reaching out in love to redeem us. It's important to understand that, left to ourselves in this condition of rebellion and spiritual deadness, we would never have chosen God. He had to take the initiative and work to persuade us to Himself, overcoming our ignorance, and selfishness, and sin and drawing us to Himself with His goodness, grace and love. We weren't in agreement, necessarily, when God began the process of our personal redemption. He acted unilaterally in beginning the adoption process of each of us. Why, then, do we think that we can negate all God has done to save us by a simple act of rejection of Him? Goodness! If that was all it took to put God off, none of us would have been saved! But God did not wait on our good feeling toward Him to save us and He doesn't rely on our good feeling toward Him to preserve the relationship with us that He (not we) forged. This idea, then, that we can let go of our salvation, hand it back to God like some item purchased from WalMart with which we are no longer happy, mistakes entirely on what basis our relationship with God was created and is sustained.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Selah.

 

[greenguzzi]

Jesus casts down the lampstands of those who do not stay with him.

The lampstand is with a congregation, not with an individual.

 

[aiki]

<staff edit>


1 John 2:26-27
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Selah.

 

[AV1611VET]

Explain this verse. And not only explain it, but explain it honestly:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

If you can't, no worries, it's really not possible to explain it any other way than an eternal security perspective. Because that's the truth.

Good post!

Here's my favorite verse on eternal security:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

In your opinion You didn't cite even one verse to refute anything I said

Perhaps you should provide some scriptural evidence too rather than the usual drive by assertions with insults speckled in it. You can start by explaining why you think Romans 11 is written to the Jews.

 

[greenguzzi]

In other words you can't show any verses that refute what I said

Here's a couple of verses for you..

Christ died once for all, not twice. We don't get a second shot.

Hebrews isn't even the slightest bit ambiguous. It spells it out word-for-word. I can't see how you missed it!

Hebrews 6:
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

1 Peter 3:
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

In other words you can't show any verses that refute what I said

Read post #18. I provided quite a few.

 

[aiki]

Sounds like you have been reading Matt 7 and Romans 2 again.

"not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7 and then follows the illustration of those who hear the words of Christ - but fail to do what they are told - the house built on sand.

And I would respond with:

Titus 3:5-7
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Good works reveal that we are saved (Ja. 2) but they have nothing to do with getting saved or remaining saved.

Selah.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

My question is whether a believer loses salvation before the second death? I don't think they can. (key in the drama of everything associated) Many are prayed into the nations, so who does the second death entail? Rewards are given as to positions in eternity also so what part of salvation is being lost as we all have received a full share to begin with? Many questions but we're not given definate answers.

 

[razzelflabben]

As Scripture plainly states, the salvation of anyone is entirely God's doing. He saves us. We don't save ourselves. And God moved to save us, not when we had already begun to move toward Him, or when we were by our own righteous deeds deserving of His efforts to save us, but when we were enemies toward God and alienated from Him, when we were dead in trespasses and sins. Our sinful rebellion toward God did not forestall His saving work, it did not prevent Him from reaching out in love to redeem us. It's important to understand that, left to ourselves in this condition of rebellion and spiritual deadness, we would never have chosen God. He had to take the initiative and work to persuade us to Himself, overcoming our ignorance, and selfishness, and sin and drawing us to Himself with His goodness, grace and love. We weren't in agreement, necessarily, when God began the process of our personal redemption. He acted unilaterally in beginning the adoption process of each of us. Why, then, do we think that we can negate all God has done to save us by a simple act of rejection of Him? Goodness! If that was all it took to put God off, none of us would have been saved! But God did not wait on our good feeling toward Him to save us and He doesn't rely on our good feeling toward Him to preserve the relationship with us that He (not we) forged. This idea, then, that we can let go of our salvation, hand it back to God like some item purchased from WalMart with which we are no longer happy, mistakes entirely on what basis our relationship with God was created and is sustained.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Selah.

hum...I asked this question before and no one answered...given this view, how do we get saved? I mean this would mean that everyone is saved and we don't have to accept Christ to be saved, we don't have to believe, we don't have to have faith, we just start out saved and no one is going to hell...is this what you really believe? You see, if rejecting Christ isn't enough to keep us from salvation then we all must be saved before we accept or believe unto salvation as scripture says...where do you base this we are all saved to start out with and don't have to believe or accept Christ? scriptural basis please....

 

[razzelflabben]

Some things are pretty straight forward in scripture.

When Jesus says those who believe in him have eternal life, it's pretty straight forward.

But, as this and all other OSAS threads demonstrate, even the most straight forward passages can be twisted to extreme lengths (seemingly anyway).

here in lies the rub so to speak...if belief is required for salvation, when what would unbelief result in? So the OSASers are saying that there is no such thing as unbelief after one believes...the non OSAS er says if belief is required for salvation, then unbelief would be non salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

And I would respond with:

Titus 3:5-7
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Good works reveal that we are saved (Ja. 2) but they have nothing to do with getting saved or remaining saved.

Selah.

The argument was never that works-save - the argument is that we have free will and it is shown in the texts I quoted - salvation is a choice followed by action -- just as Romans 10 says

 

[aiki]

hum...I asked this question before and no one answered...given this view, how do we get saved? I mean this would mean that everyone is saved and we don't have to accept Christ to be saved, we don't have to believe, we don't have to have faith, we just start out saved and no one is going to hell...is this what you really believe?

I'm not sure how what I wrote leads you to the questions/conclusions you list above...

How does anyone get saved? As I explained, God moves to save them (which the Scripture I've cited earlier in this thread makes very clear). How does God choose whom He will save? He chooses all those who, in His omniscience, He knows will be saved, who will respond in saving faith to His redeeming work.

I'm not sure how what I wrote means "everyone is saved and we don't have to accept Christ to be saved." I don't see that taught in Scripture and it isn't mandated by what Scripture says about how God saves us.

I'm also not clear on why you think God's monergistic work of salvation described in Scripture means "we don't have to believe, we don't have to have faith, we just start out saved and no one is going to Hell." Nothing I've said about Scripture and salvation requires this conclusion.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

The argument was never that works-save - the argument is that we have free will and it is shown in the texts I quoted - salvation is a choice followed by action -- just as Romans 10 says

I see. And I agree: We must choose to be saved. But being convinced of the need of salvation, understanding the spiritual truths of the Gospel, being convicted about our sin, desiring to repent of a life lived in rebellion to God, and exercising saving faith in Christ are all things God works into us so that we are genuinely free to choose Him and are properly inclined and able to do so.

Selah.