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To those who don't believe in eternal security...

CodyFaith

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To all that say this seal can somehow be broken.

If that's the case, then why did it say they are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption?

It's a guarantee. Scripture says that they are sealed until the day of redemption. Period.
 
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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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To all that say this seal can somehow be broken.

If that's the case, then why did it say they are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption?

It's a guarantee. Scripture says that they are sealed until the day of redemption. Period.

Again, what are the conditions of having that seal?

John 6:27 seems pretty clear me that this condition needs to be met in order to have the seal.

Also see John 4:34.


...
 
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DingDing

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<staff edit>
Why do you believe that salvation is based on the amount or quality of faith and trust we have, and not on the object of our faith, as the Bible teaches?
...

Jesus said, "Follow Me." Does that mean anything to you? How can Jesus be the "object" if you don't follow?
 
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YouAreAwesome

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To all that say this seal can somehow be broken.

If that's the case, then why did it say they are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption?

It's a guarantee. Scripture says that they are sealed until the day of redemption. Period.
It is a guarantee. There is nothing to worry about, we will be saved. We are saved now, and forevermore until the day of redemption. Unless we deliberately choose to turn from it. Is this a paradox? No. Let me explain by analogy.

Let's say when you buy a car, you are formally assured to have it fixed if something breaks. So most people, if something goes wrong, take it straight to the mechanic and have the car serviced for free. But if you decide to go back to the seller of the car and say "I do not want you to fix my car anymore" then the guarantee will end. Until this time you could say about your car: "It will be fixed. It is guaranteed. My car is guaranteed to be fixed forever." All these things are true. But you still have the choice to end the agreement.

OSAS is similar. OSAS is true, until we end the agreement deliberately.
 
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DingDing

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The answer to this question is not entirely clear because there is scripture that supports both sides. Jesus' message about the good shepherd (John) suggests no free will. The parable of the sower (Matthew) suggest choice. The good news is that regardless of your personal position, the topic in itself is not necessary for salvation. So we all will have a chance to ask God directly.

No following your logic here. Either we have an ongoing choice in belief, or we do not.
 
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No following your logic here. Either we have an ongoing choice in belief, or we do not.
I agree. The point is that the bible isn't exactly clear on the issue.
 
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greenguzzi

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Explain this verse. And not only explain it, but explain it honestly:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

If you can't, no worries, it's really not possible to explain it any other way than an eternal security perspective. Because that's the truth.
You can only come to that conclusion (eternal security) if you take that one verse in isolation. However scripture interprets scripture. When you look at what the scriptures say as a whole you cannot be so confident of eternal security.

(A seal can be broken. God promised us that He will not break this seal, but we still can; the scriptures attest to this.)

I'll give you a some examples:

Mark 3
Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.

Matthew 12
Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Hebrews 6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
 
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DingDing

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To all that say this seal can somehow be broken.

If that's the case, then why did it say they are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption?

It's a guarantee. Scripture says that they are sealed until the day of redemption. Period.

God has a purpose. We were marked FOR the day of redemption. (Not until.) We can break the seal between now and then. Do you have a problem with that?
 
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DingDing

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we will agree to disagree then as per what I previously laid out after a careful study of predestination in scripture.

But did we all agree to disagree, or is there some disagreement on this agreement? Inquiring minds want to know!
 
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DingDing

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Your ignorance of soteriology is duly noted. Salvation is not a "path we take". It's a work of God done in us.

So how do you jive your words with the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount? I would kind of have to go with Jesus on this, since He is both God and Judge (and you are rather something less).
 
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CodyFaith

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I'm gonna put it like this.

Someone has a jar of pickles. They seal it. They tell someone "I've sealed the jar of pickles unto the new year".

What does that mean?

Ok. We can agree that means the pickles are sealed unto the new year.

So when scripture says that believers are sealed unto the day of redemption. What does that mean?

See it's just as simple as the pickle jar. The pickles have been sealed unto the new year, and believers have been sealed unto the day of redemption. The words speak for themselves and can only mean one thing.

Unless of course your heart is hardened and you try to twist it as best as you possibly can to fit your pre-conceived ideas based on misinterpreted scripture. Also note that many of the answers here and in other threads often go something like "well if that's the case, than what about x scripture, or what about y passage" or mixed with their own personal philosophies, avoiding the passage. The reason, imo, is because that's the first things on their minds. You're so dead set on that philosophy that it can't help but come out automatically, it's the go-to.

Believe and you're saved.
 
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DingDing

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Romans 11 is about Jews, not about born again Christians and not about the Biblical doctrine of eternal security

<staff edit>(I kind of think you missed something here in Romans 11.)
 
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DingDing

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I agree. The point is that the bible isn't exactly clear on the issue.

I happen to think the bible is very clear on this. Those who are saved, which are those who have answered the call to follow, must do this one thing - they must follow. I see no ambiguity on this.
 
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BobRyan

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I happen to think the bible is very clear on this. Those who are saved, which are those who have answered the call to follow, must do this one thing - they must follow. I see no ambiguity on this.

True -- as 1 Cor 6 points out to the church -- the wicked don't go to heaven
 
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BobRyan

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I agree. The point is that the bible isn't exactly clear on the issue.

It is clear on this one --


Matt 7 and Romans 2

Matt 7
"not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7 and then follows the illustration of those who hear the words of Christ - but fail to do what they are told - the house built on sand.


Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
...
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed,



And clear on this one -

1 John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1 John 5:2-4
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And clear in Romans 6

Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

And it was pretty clear here -

OSAS does not survive 1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others - I myself should be disqualified from it"

And this was "clear as a bell" -

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
 
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BobRyan

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Romans 11:22
but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
 
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I happen to think the bible is very clear on this. Those who are saved, which are those who have answered the call to follow, must do this one thing - they must follow. I see no ambiguity on this.
Read post #18
 
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DingDing

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I happen to think the bible is very clear on this. Those who are saved, which are those who have answered the call to follow, must do this one thing - they must follow. I see no ambiguity on this.
Read post #18

In the section of that post you called "Here is the evidence in support of OSAS:" there are a lot of assumptions in those interpretations. It is those assumptions which need critical review. So your post #18 really adds nothing to the discussion, other than it highlights the very questionable interpretations given to several passages.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Sorry Cody, you derailed yourself.

Pickles have no free will. People do. People can climb out of the jar, even if it is sealed by YHWH - HE NEVER takes away any person's free will to leave whenever they want to.

Y'SHUA showed this every day recorded in the New Testament.

You have some "need" for what you think is osas, or you wouldn't believe it. It is directly contradicted by too much Scripture about people who are resurrected to shame and judgment who thought they were always saved,
and many other / all other / Scripture that shows clearly
free will joyously and willingly remaining with Y'SHUA or departing from HIM AFTER TASTING NEW LIFE AND HEAVENLY BLESSINGS.

Even if all that were not so, even without all the Scriptural evidence you contradict with osas,
remember that people don't know if they are saved or not
when they are not saved
even if they think they are saved - no matter how sure they are!
No matter how many other people are duped also !
No matter how many other people tell them wrongly that they are saved !

i.e. A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE THEY ARE OR WILL BE SAVED<
and they never will be, whether they ever were or not.

Even as written in SCRIPTURE - people are raised from the grave in the end and brought forth on judgment day,
and TOLD BY Y'SHUA - "BEGONE"
people who WERE SURE THEY WERE SAVED , but weren't !
They DON'T FIND OUT

until

JUDGMENT DAY.
Nah, it means sealed unto that day is sealed unto that day.

You're focusing again still on your own philosophies instead of the actual accurate analogy.

You all can't see truth, and I can't make you see it. So this message is no longer for you, but instead for the people who your lot deceive and lead astray with your lies and hardened way of thinking.
 
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