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Then the question is this. If God leads us to salvation, and it is God's will that none should perish (2 Peter: 3-9), then why isn't everyone lead to salvation? Is 2 Peter 3:9 a lie, or is God somehow powerless to save everyone because something is thwarting His plans?I see. And I agree: We must choose to be saved. But being convinced of the need of salvation, understanding the spiritual truths of the Gospel, being convicted about our sin, desiring to repent of a life lived in rebellion to God, and exercising saving faith in Christ are all things God works into us so that we are genuinely free to choose Him and are properly inclined and able to do so.
Selah.
Then the question is this. If God leads us to salvation, and it is God's will that none should perish (2 Peter: 3-9), then why isn't everyone lead to salvation?
I see. And I agree: We must choose to be saved. But being convinced of the need of salvation, understanding the spiritual truths of the Gospel, being convicted about our sin, desiring to repent of a life lived in rebellion to God, and exercising saving faith in Christ are all things God works into us so that we are genuinely free to choose Him and are properly inclined and able to do so.
Selah.
Consider these key Bible details
John 6 -- the drawing of God enables all the choice that depravity disables.
John 12:32 "I will draw ALL mankind unto Me"
Believe me when I say that we are in agreement. However, it is the scripture most often used to support the OSAS
When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”
John 10:4-5 NIV
Now this is just one example of many. When all the examples regarding this topic are collected and reviewed. IMO the argument could reasonably go both ways depending on context. I personally have found free will to be more convincing.
Here is the evidence in support of OSAS:
(a) Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.
(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.
(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.
(d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be "un-indwelt" and detached from the Body of Christ.
(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.
Here is the evidence against OSAS:
Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.
Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
...........QUOTE]
While I mostly agree with you, you missed one major aspect. There are two types of people. 1.) Those that are saved, and 2.) Those that are not. Even with the parable of the seed sown on rocky places, you can argue that they weren't really saved as Matthew 24:13 suggests.
I see. And I agree: We must choose to be saved. But being convinced of the need of salvation, understanding the spiritual truths of the Gospel, being convicted about our sin, desiring to repent of a life lived in rebellion to God, and exercising saving faith in Christ are all things God works into us so that we are genuinely free to choose Him and are properly inclined and able to do so.
Selah.
And to this I let Christ reply:
Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
John 12:32 is best understood in its context:
John 12:31-33
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
In light of Christ's words in Matthew 7:13, 14, we cannot interpret John 12:31-33 to mean that all people will be saved. Christ very explicitly says, "Few there be that find it (the narrow way)." This is what we observe as well. The vast majority of humanity today has rejected Christ and this has always been the case through the centuries. What I think Jesus was saying in John 12 was that his death would be the means by which those from every tongue and nation whom God in His foreknowledge knew would be saved could be saved.
Selah.
it's just the logical conclusion of what you said....so, let's talk it throughI'm not sure how what I wrote leads you to the questions/conclusions you list above...
How does anyone get saved? As I explained, God moves to save them (which the Scripture I've cited earlier in this thread makes very clear). How does God choose whom He will save? He chooses all those who, in His omniscience, He knows will be saved, who will respond in saving faith to His redeeming work.
exactly...but it is the nature conclusion to what you said about OSAS. See, the non OSASer believes that since we choose to accept Jesus we can also choose to "unaccept" Him. Your post seemed to indicate that that was not possible. That leaves two options, 1. you have scripture that says we cannot choose anything once we come to Christ. Which has been asked for a dozen and a half times and no one even attempts to provide a passage that says our free will is revoked upon salvation, or 2. our salvation in the first place does not require us to accept or choose to accept it. that is the two choices. Now I do know that some groups believe the second, that God in His Love would not ever allow anyone to "die in their sins" because that wouldn't be love. So if you along with everyone else refuse to post a single scripture that says that we revoke our free will upon salvation then you automatically must be in the second group here, right? It really is that simple to refute the non OSAS theology, present a passage that says that upon salvation we forfeit our free will or you are of that group that believes that we don't have to choose to accept and follow Christ in order to be saved. Which is it?I'm not sure how what I wrote means "everyone is saved and we don't have to accept Christ to be saved." I don't see that taught in Scripture and it isn't mandated by what Scripture says about how God saves us.
actually what you said in your post draws this conclusion. If salvation is not a matter of choice, then it is not a matter of choice, period. That means one of two things is true, 1. choice is not required for salvation or 2. we loss our right to choose upon salvation...which do you choose? and once you choose which of the two you are going with, I will ask you to evidence it in scripture. I'm kind of that way, I require scripture (the totality of scripture) as evidence of things that are controversial about God.I'm also not clear on why you think God's monergistic work of salvation described in Scripture means "we don't have to believe, we don't have to have faith, we just start out saved and no one is going to Hell." Nothing I've said about Scripture and salvation requires this conclusion.
The argument from John 6 and John 12:32 is not that all will choose salvation - but that all are enabled to choose.
Rejection of the Gospel is NOT because they are not drawn... it is NOT because they are unable to accept it.
What I don't understand about OSAS and Eternal Security is that people claim that even those who fall away from Christ are still saved.
Well if we're saved based on our faith and based on our belief in Christ than wouldn't that mean that if we no longer believe in Christ that we lose our salvation? And what about those "Christians" who don't live the Christian life and repent from their sins? There are "Christians" out there who still for example, practice homosexuality.
There are still conditions to our salvation isn't there?
I brought this up before and no one really commented so let me point it out again....according to Romans 8, what are we predestined to....? "to be conformed to the image of His son...." that is what completes man, becoming HIS image. This is true of all mankind...to be fulfilled, to be who God created us to be, we need to be conformed to His image. Many people twist this passage to mean salvation, but that doesn't say that. In fact, who did HE NOT "foreknew"? His word says that HE knit us all together in our mothers womb...that is a foreknowing. it is important to understand what the passage really does say.I see. Is that really what Scripture teaches?:
Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Now, when I brought this up previously I was asked how I came to the conclusion that you were saying that salvation isn't a choice...let me quote you here, "and thus quite unable to choose to be saved." That is where I get the idea from...from you saying that is what you believe. Yet we can post counter passages like...John 1:12; John 3:18; Romans 8:14; and many others which all indicate a choice. Now, this is NOT to say that God is not working in us before we accept Him but rather it is to say that God in His wisdom gave us the ability to choose and that is the sticking point when it comes to OSAS belief. If the discussion is to move forward at all, the OSAS er must show that there is no choice when it comes to salvation and you have not done that here nor have you shown in the totality of scripture how to reconcile the passages that indicate choice with those that you claim show none.Well, that's just isn't what I see spelled out in Scripture:
Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Colossians 1:21-22
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
Paul is quite clear in these passages about the natural, unregenerate state in which we all exist before God draws us to Himself. Paul does not indicate that we are free to choose God but instead teaches that we are dead spiritually, bound under the influence of the devil and our own carnal impulses, enemies and alienated from God and thus quite unable to choose to be saved.
Selah.
I see. And I agree: We must choose to be saved. But being convinced of the need of salvation, understanding the spiritual truths of the Gospel, being convicted about our sin, desiring to repent of a life lived in rebellion to God, and exercising saving faith in Christ are all things God works into us so that we are genuinely free to choose Him and are properly inclined and able to do so.
Selah.
And to this I let Christ reply:
Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
John 12:32 is best understood in its context:
John 12:31-33
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
In light of Christ's words in Matthew 7:13, 14, we cannot interpret John 12:31-33 to mean that all people will be saved. Christ very explicitly says, "Few there be that find it (the narrow way)." This is what we observe as well. The vast majority of humanity today has rejected Christ and this has always been the case through the centuries. What I think Jesus was saying in John 12 was that his death would be the means by which those from every tongue and nation whom God in His foreknowledge knew would be saved could be saved.
Selah.
I see. Is that really what Scripture teaches?:
Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Well, that's just isn't what I see spelled out in Scripture:
Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Colossians 1:21-22
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
Paul is quite clear in these passages about the natural, unregenerate state in which we all exist before God draws us to Himself. Paul does not indicate that we are free to choose God but instead teaches that we are dead spiritually, bound under the influence of the devil and our own carnal impulses, enemies and alienated from God and thus quite unable to choose to be saved.
Selah.
I brought this up before and no one really commented so let me point it out again....according to Romans 8, what are we predestined to....? "to be conformed to the image of His son...." that is what completes man, becoming HIS image. This is true of all mankind...to be fulfilled, .
so you could answer this posters questions but not mine when I asked the same things?Nobody who understands the Biblical doctrine of eternal security claims that.
If somebody's still practicing homosexuality then that shows there is no evidence of repentance in the first place.
when it says that we need to remain in Him as He is in us, it kind of is teaching that we help to maintain our salvation...John 15:4...scripture teaching the process of salvation or the maintenance of our salvation would be another way to say it, is kind of like an symbiotic relationship of HS power combined with our efforts for an unbeatable combination. Even Luke 10:27 tells us to Love the Lord with all our strength...that sounds to me like we have a job to do when it comes to our salvation, to actually Love with all that we are is something we contribute.What you're describing is a system by which we're required to maintain our salvation but that's not what the Bible teaches.
yep...not in question that I know of.The Bible teaches that upon regeneration the believer's old nature is crucified and he receives a new nature and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
two important truths of scripture you are missing here. 1. you ask how can a crucified self return to the old nature...how can a dead come to life? You see, when it comes to the spirit, the flesh rules don't apply, scripture is clear on this. Thus you can't play the logic game and expect to know truth, rather you have to reconcile all the scriptures together to understand God's intent. 2. The HS cannot be overpowered but no one is talking about overpowering the HS. Rather they are talking about living in the God given gift of choice.If the old nature is crucified then how does somebody return to it If we have a new nature that seeks to serve God and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit how does someone overpower the Holy Spirit
and...what? did you stop being flesh and blood when you came to Christ? What of the scripture that tells us the thoughts of a man's heart are only evil continually? Does the believer never fall prey to sin after salvation? Why are we told to confess and repent if there is no such thing as sin after coming to Christ? The real heart of my problem with OSAS theology is that it requires me to leave out too much scripture to come to the same belief and that is something I refuse to do.The answer I keep seeing here is "free will" but even with free will you can only exercise your free will to do those things that your nature allows you to do.
let's talk about this a moment, from this comment I am not sure you understand what the new nature according to scripture means. Luke 10:27 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don't do what you want.I might have the free will to flap my arms and try to fly but I can't fly because that's not in my nature.
not what scripture says...maybe you can provide the passages that support this claim...in fact, as I showed you, scripture says that even with a new nature there is a battle raging within over who wins first place in our hearts and minds.An unregenerate man cannot call on the Lord for salvation under his own power because his old sinful nature does not allow him to. Conversely a regenerate man cannot walk away from the Lord because his new nature will not allow him to.
yep...but that isn't what is being argued against.No. salvation is free and unmerited.
What I don't understand about OSAS and Eternal Security is that people claim that even those who fall away from Christ are still saved.
Well if we're saved based on our faith and based on our belief in Christ than wouldn't that mean that if we no longer believe in Christ that we lose our salvation?
in my experience, both sides believe that many who profess Christ are not really believing unto salvation but that doesn't address passages like...Heb. 4 where we read this.... It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, away, to be brought back to repentance....notice this is not talking about those that just profess Christ but haven't seen the change that He makes in the life of the true believer. As well as other passages that say similar things.No, what I believe as an OSAS proponent is that such people were never truly saved in the first place. "By their fruit you shall know them." Many people say the Sinner's Prayer and adopt the rituals of Christian living and think they are, therefore, born-again and on their way to heaven. But these things don't save. I suspect that 85 - 90% of people living today who profess to be Christian are no such thing and never were. Consequently, there are many "Christians" who "fall away" and reveal the true nature of their relationship with God - which is that they never really had one.
yep...but not addressing the issue of the difference between OSAS and NON OSAS belief. I mean, it's good to talk about what we agree on, but what about dealing with where there is disagreement so that we can glorify God with accepting His words and not our own?1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
again, more about what we agree on and refusal to address where we disagree?Our salvation is not our doing. God saves us; we don't save ourselves. What faith we have to exert toward Christ is from God. He gives us the faith to believe. God, then, didn't make our salvation entirely contingent upon us and He doesn't make our continued salvation entirely contingent upon us, either.
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
Selah.
?What difference does it make TODAY ? (for anyone who believes in osas)
None.
None at all.
Unless YHWH shows mercy.
Selah.
No, what I believe as an OSAS proponent is that such people were never truly saved in the first place. "By their fruit you shall know them." Many people say the Sinner's Prayer and adopt the rituals of Christian living and think they are, therefore, born-again and on their way to heaven. But these things don't save. I suspect that 85 - 90% of people living today who profess to be Christian are no such thing and never were. Consequently, there are many "Christians" who "fall away" and reveal the true nature of their relationship with God - which is that they never really had one.
1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
Our salvation is not our doing. God saves us; we don't save ourselves. What faith we have to exert toward Christ is from God. He gives us the faith to believe. God, then, didn't make our salvation entirely contingent upon us and He doesn't make our continued salvation entirely contingent upon us, either.
South Bound said:We're not saved by our own righteousness, but by Christ's righteousness, and our salvation is not kept by our faithfulness, but by Christ's faithfulness and ability to keep that which the Father has given Him.
If one is born again, then his salvation is secure in Christ's hands.
I would encourage you to think long and hard about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. That means that it would only take one sin to fall away.
To deny the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, you must believe that, if one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, as well. Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.
Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We can't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We can't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did under the law!
Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?
the problem is...this all sounds wise and noble but in reality doesn't address any of the disagreements in the two different doctrines and instead addresses agreements....how about instead of making posts that sound wise in your own eyes and to those who agree with your doctrine, you all address the disagreements as they are presented and how the totality of scripture reconciles your pov?Exactly The Bible is very clear that there are tares and false converts in the Church Not everybody who says "Lord Lord" is saved and it's silly to assume that just because one repeats a prayer that they're saved
The Bible describes four criteria to determine whether or not someone is saved:
1 Testimony
2 Doctrine
3 Fruit
4 Sanctification
If one goes through life with no evidence of good fruit or sanctification and a testimony that's rather shallow (although in all fairness they may just not be good at expressing themselves or explaining their conversion experience) then why should that be a strike against the Biblical doctrine of eternal security when they walk away
Well said I've often wondered why they believe that a salvation that was ordained by God initiated by God purchased by God performed by God and sealed by God would not be kept by God
If we were unable to choose our salvation if we were unable to purchase our salvation if we were unable to secure our salvation then how can we be expected to be able to keep our salvation
Like I said in my first post which everybody sees to have ignored
(Sorry for the poor spelling and punctuation Several keys on y laptop are not working)
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