To those who don't believe in eternal security...

CodyFaith said:

I would also say that it's salvation, not part salvation, little bit salvation, salvation now then lose it later and regain it again, etc.

You either are saved or you aren't.

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"Ya'but" full salvation can be partially lost too by careless living.

CodyFaith said:

Then it was never salvation.

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Then it's lack of rewards.

CodyFaith said:

Rewards are given in the afterlife when we choose to serve Christ more intensely, to not sin, to choose holiness while we're in the faith, and by spreading the gospel.

The more one serves, the more rewards they will have in heaven. And of course the rewards are things like seeing the people they've brought to Christ and to the gospel, seeing the fruits of their labor, etc.

There is no gospel without eternal security. The gospel is salvation to the believer.

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What makes you think that the coat of many colors that you are weaving now will be changed? The judgement seat of Christ is before not after entrance.

Wordkeeper said:

You got angry the last time I suggested that our problem is of not being able to bear the burden on our own:

John 16
12“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14“He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15“All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

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I'm trying to figure out the last time I was angry at all much less at you over something like bearing a burden...

I'm guessing this means you refuse to answer the question in a manner that I can understanding...have a great day.

CodyFaith said:

Rewards are given in the afterlife when we choose to serve Christ more intensely, to not sin, to choose holiness while we're in the faith, and by spreading the gospel.

The more one serves, the more rewards they will have in heaven. And of course the rewards are things like seeing the people they've brought to Christ and to the gospel, seeing the fruits of their labor, etc.

There is no gospel without eternal security. The gospel is salvation to the believer.

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I think we can narrow down salvation to the state of being blessings to the world, because the gift must always be linked to the promise to Abraham.

IOW, salvation is not centrally related to going to heaven, but in living purposefully, being blessings to those who hear God's message through us, with confirmation.

God initiated this form of ministry with Moses, when He acquiesced to his request for help in convincing Israel that he had indeed been sent by God.

When Judas returned with the seventy two, excited that even the demons submitted to them, Jesus said they should be happy not because of the power, but because their names had been written in heaven.

However, the tug of the world was the undoing of Judas.

CodyFaith said in post 1:

Explain this verse. And not only explain it, but explain it honestly:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

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The day of redemption in Ephesians 4:30, as in Ephesians 1:14, refers to when, at Jesus' 2nd coming, obedient believers' physical bodies will be redeemed (Romans 8:23-25) by being resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal flesh and bone bodies like Jesus was resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21).

Ephesians 4:30 and Ephesians 1:14 do not require that every initially saved person will receive ultimate salvation on the day of redemption, for some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

CodyFaith said in post 1:

. . . it's really not possible to explain it any other way than an eternal security perspective.

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Note that the Bible does not teach eternal security (also called once-saved-always-saved), but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). And there is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not worship the future Antichrist and his image, and do not willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). And there is no assurance that they will not choose to do those things (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they cannot do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus is not a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

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CodyFaith said in post 285:

There is no gospel without eternal security.

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Do you mean: How can the idea that we are not once-saved-always-saved be the gospel, when it is not "good news" (the literal meaning of "gospel")?

If so, note that the good news is that elect sinners can repent, believe, and be obedient unto eternal life (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:7). But there is also bad news in the Bible, for nonelect people (John 8:42-47, Romans 9:21-22) and unrepentant believers (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46). It is important to preach both the good news and the bad (John 3:36, Romans 9:22-23; 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4), because it is by the fear of God (Matthew 10:28, Matthew 25:41,46) that people depart from evil (Proverbs 16:6, Proverbs 3:7, Proverbs 14:27).

Wordkeeper said in post 288:

. . . the tug of the world was the undoing of Judas.

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Good point.

For even though Judas the apostle was chosen/elect/saved/empowered just like the other apostles (Luke 6:13-16, Mark 6:7-13, Matthew 19:28), he still subsequently became a devil (John 6:70-71) who would ultimately become unsaved (Mark 14:21), because he wrongly employed his free will to begin to love money more than Jesus (John 12:3-6, Mark 14:3-11; cf. 1 Timothy 6:10, Matthew 6:24).

In my studies this week, I found another interesting passage I would like the OSAS crowd to address, especially the highlighted portions...II Peter 1:3-15 (HCSB)

3 His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. 4 By these He has given us very great and precious promises, so that through them you may share in the divine nature,escaping the corruption that is in the world because of evil desires. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with goodness, goodness with knowledge, 6 knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with godliness, 7 godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they will keep you from being useless or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 The person who lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten the cleansing from his past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, make every effort to confirm your calling and election, because if you do these things you will never stumble. 11 For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you.

12 Therefore I will always remind you about these things, even though you know them and are established in the truth you have. 13 I consider it right, as long as I am in this bodily tent, to wake you up with a reminder, 14 knowing that I will soon lay aside my tent, as our Lord Jesus Christ has also shown me. 15 And I will also make every effort that you may be able to recall these things at any time after my departure.

Before someone tries to go off on some tangent about God supplying the things necessary to accomplish these things, that is something we agree on. What we disagree on is whether or not as in the words above from II Peter whether we need to "make every effort to supplement our faith..." so that we are not "useless and unfruitful..." and "forgotten the cleaning from our past sins..." so that we might "entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..." this is the point of contention between the two sides as I see it.

razzelflabben said:

In my studies this week, I found another interesting passage I would like the OSAS crowd to address, especially the highlighted portions...II Peter 1:3-15 (HCSB)

3 His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. 4 By these He has given us very great and precious promises, so that through them you may share in the divine nature,escaping the corruption that is in the world because of evil desires. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with goodness, goodness with knowledge, 6 knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with godliness, 7 godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they will keep you from being useless or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 The person who lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten the cleansing from his past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, make every effort to confirm your calling and election, because if you do these things you will never stumble. 11 For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you.

12 Therefore I will always remind you about these things, even though you know them and are established in the truth you have. 13 I consider it right, as long as I am in this bodily tent, to wake you up with a reminder, 14 knowing that I will soon lay aside my tent, as our Lord Jesus Christ has also shown me. 15 And I will also make every effort that you may be able to recall these things at any time after my departure.

Before someone tries to go off on some tangent about God supplying the things necessary to accomplish these things, that is something we agree on. What we disagree on is whether or not as in the words above from II Peter whether we need to "make every effort to supplement our faith..." so that we are not "useless and unfruitful..." and "forgotten the cleaning from our past sins..." so that we might "entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..." this is the point of contention between the two sides as I see it.

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Referring to the kingdom of God, which was given to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Daniel 7:13-14 and which will be manifested at His coming back Luke 19:11-12. It will be a reward to His faithful believers, who pursue the growth in His life unto maturity and the development of the virtues of His nature that in the millennium they may participate in His kingdom rule in God's glory 2 Timothy 2:12 ; Revelation 20:4, 6. To enter thus into the eternal kingdom of the Lord is related to entering into God's eternal glory, to which God has called us in Christ 1 Peter 5:10; 1 Thessalonians 2:12

~Cassia~ said:

Referring to the kingdom of God, which was given to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Daniel 7:13-14 and which will be manifested at His coming back Luke 19:11-12. It will be a reward to His faithful believers, who pursue the growth in His life unto maturity and the development of the virtues of His nature that in the millennium they may participate in His kingdom rule in God's glory 2 Timothy 2:12 ; Revelation 20:4, 6. To enter thus into the eternal kingdom of the Lord is related to entering into God's eternal glory, to which God has called us in Christ 1 Peter 5:10; 1 Thessalonians 2:12

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the highlighted above is NOT what the OSASers here have been saying which is why I posted the passage and asked for the OSAS opinion on the passage and how to reconcile it against OSAS belief. SEE, the OSASers here have been saying and it is the cornerstone of the OSAS belief that we don't have to do anything once we become saved...the passage I presented says " make every effort to supplement your faith" we need to supplement our faith if we want to enter the eternal kingdom which is the direct opposite of OSAS teaching.

What your saying is there is a corner on the market for a belief system instead of addressing my post. Sorry if I'm being brief in explaination of what I thought was obvious in a look at the scripture as it relates to rewards, but I'm having tech difficulties so am kinda multitasking at the moment.

~Cassia~ said:

What your saying is there is a corner on the market for a belief system instead of addressing my post. Sorry if I'm being brief in explaination of what I thought was obvious in a look at the scripture as it relates to rewards, but I'm having tech difficulties so am kinda multitasking at the moment.

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I'm not trying to corner anything, as I understood your post you were not addressing the core difference between the OSASer and the no OSASer as per the passage in question...please clarify what you intended...thanks

It was discussed at the top of the page

I responded as I understood the post and you seem to think I misunderstood, saying "It was discussed at the top of the page" is not going to change how I understood your post nor will it clarify what you intended.

razzelflabben said:

I responded as I understood the post and you seem to think I misunderstood, saying "It was discussed at the top of the page" is not going to change how I understood your post nor will it clarify what you intended.

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I was addressing the 3rd belief system of rewards being taken away from the full salvation yet being saved as thru fire. In that way all of the scripture is addressed and not neglecting some scripture. Sometimes I think God allows the bickering just to give some the fun/frustration of debate. Those who incorporate all of scripture then rightly divide the word (which none do completely) at least your not left with pieces left over. As is the case of the Arminian vs Lutheran which is what both sides are ligning up with one or the other.
The 3rd method of rewards that incorperates the dispensational system at least sees the mountains of eternity in the distance along with the valley of the millenium in between which is what even prophets of old mistook in not seeing the church age. It was at least a mystery then while we are w/o excuse.

~Cassia~ said:

I was addressing the 3rd belief system of rewards being taken away from the full salvation yet being saved as thru fire. In that way all of the scripture is addressed and not neglecting some scripture. Sometimes I think God allows the bickering just to give some the fun/frustration of debate. Those who incorporate all of scripture then rightly divide the word (which none do completely) at least your not left with pieces left over. As is the case of the Arminian vs Lutheran which is what both sides are ligning up with one or the other.
The 3rd method of rewards that incorperates the dispensational system at least sees the mountains of eternity in the distance along with the valley of the millenium in between which is what even prophets of old mistook in not seeing the church age. It was at least a mystery then while we are w/o excuse.

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so, if I got you right, the heavenly rewards that can be removed or not given are "11 For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you." that is entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ...what then do we get when we become saved if not eternal life in the Kingdom of God?

As you said, all passages have to be reconciled without anything left over. As I read scripture I see over and over and over that the one who believes unto salvation will inherit eternal life in the Kingdom of God. You seem to be saying this is not part of salvation but rather a reward for suplimenting our salvation...what then is salvation in your opinion?

razzelflabben said:

so, if I got you right, the heavenly rewards that can be removed or not given are "11 For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you." that is entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ...what then do we get when we become saved if not eternal life in the Kingdom of God?

As you said, all passages have to be reconciled without anything left over. As I read scripture I see over and over and over that the one who believes unto salvation will inherit eternal life in the Kingdom of God. You seem to be saying this is not part of salvation but rather a reward for suplimenting our salvation...what then is salvation in your opinion?

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salvation is from the earthly and physical realm to the heavenly and spiritual sphere, plus glorification. however one doesn't immediately go from earthly existance and wake up in eternity. the judgement seat of Christ comes before the great white throne.

Rewards are seen here Matt. 5:20; 7:21-23; 16:24-27; 19:23-30; 24:46-51; 25:11-13, 21, 23, 26-30; Luke 12:42-48; 19:17, 19, 22-27; Rom. 14:10, 12; 1 Cor. 3:8, 13-15; 4:5; 9:24-27; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:7-8; Heb. 2:3; 4:1, 9, 11; 6:4-8; 10:26-31, 35-39; 12:16-17, 28-29; and Rev. 2:7, 10-11, 17, 26-27; 3:4-5, 11-12, 20; 22:12.

Calvanist vs Arminian view are what this thread is confining itself to.

They both seem to have this concept that rewards are gained in purgatory which is what Codyfaith was saying.

Neither of these schools recognizes the reward of the kingdom; nor do either side see the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward. Both consider all the negative points in the above verses as referring to perdition. The Calvinist regards all these negative points as applying to the perdition of false believers; while the Arminian school, believing that a saved person will perish if he falls, regards these points as applying to the perdition of believers who have fallen.

Without the concept of rewards as given before the millenium the interpretation of these verses falls into either the extreme objectiveness of the Calvinist school or the extreme subjectiveness of the Arminian school.