To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[claninja]

Matthew 25:44-46
44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I would argue this has to do with the judgment of Israel because the context leading up to the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 21-24 is about the judgment of Israel.
Matthew 21:33-45 = parable of wicked tenants: destruction of Israel and kingdom going to another nation
Matthew 22:1-14 = parable of marriage feast: destruction of Israel and kingdom going to others
Matthew 23:1-39 = woes to Pharisees and Jerusalem for killing the prophets.
Matthew 24: prediction of jerusalem temple destruction and coming of son of man which will happen during the disciple's generation

Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27 all tell us that the son of man/kingdom of God will come before some of Jesus' disciples taste death. We also know that Christ is seated at the right hand of God on his throne.

Sheep= Gentiles and remnant elect Jews; Those who did not pursue righteousness but did obtain it. Notice the sheep's humble response in the parable of the sheep and goats. They did not even know they were doing righteousness for God. This fulfills what Isaiah 65:1 and what Paul says in Romans 9-11. T

Matthew 25:37-38 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
Romans 9:30
That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith;
Romans 10:20
“I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

Goats=hardened Israel; Those who pursued the law, but did not obtain righteousness. Notice the goat's self righteous response below. They pursued righteousness, but did not obtain it. Paul explains in this Romans 9-11

Matthew 25:44
Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
Romans 9:31
but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law.

My point is that this parable, when taken in context, is not about a future time from us, but about the end of the age/world and judgment for Israel as God's chose people.

 

[joshua 1 9]

this has to do with the judgment of Israel

Everything God did in Israel is a shadow and a type of what He is now doing in the Church.

 

[lsume]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

1Tim.4

1. [10] For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Dan.12

1. [2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You want to find Christ in this short lifetime. As I understand it, only the fallen angels will suffer eternal darkness. Please see the blog on this site named Darkness. Also, after serious prayer for God's protection, you might want to read The Book of Enoch. That coupled with The Book of Jude should enlighten some on this topic.

 

[AlexDTX]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

There is no torment in Hell. Hell is jail. It is the holding place for all who reject the gift of life in Christ until the White Throne Judgement. Then the truth of their own selfishness will be revealed and they will be placed into the Lake of Fire where the fire is not quenched nor the worm dies.

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

Salvation is available for all who will accept it, but not all will accept it because they love death more than life. God offers salvation and we must accept it.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

They are not going into everlasting punishment. They remain in the continuous death they desired. We are all born dead. Our spirits are dead at birth (meaning we are cut off from the Spirit of Life, ie. God) and entropy, which is the deterioration of all creation is the physical manifestation of sin, or the misalignment from perfection, that all creation suffers. When they go into the second death, they are permanently sealed in that death. The Lake of Fire is merely the continuing decomposition of their bodies but will have no end. We are all given an unending life in our spirit thus they can not completely decompose after the resurrection for the White Throne Judgement.

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, for sure, but if they did not believe the Gospel when they were alive, they will not believe it after death. Jesus, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus has Abraham tell the rich man that they had Moses and the Prophets. If they did not believe then they would not believe now. Likewise when Jesus went to Hell (not the Lake of Fire) he preached the Gospel. Only those that believed the Gospel before dying came out of the grave with him.

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Do you not know that His word is settled forever in heaven? God does not change his mind. He did not change his mind with Jonah. Jonah still had to preach the gospel to Ninevah. When He speaks, He speaks from eternity and all that he says comes from his immutable character. He demonstrated his "omnipotent love" by becoming the man Jesus Christ and taking the sins of all the world upon himself. If that act of love is rejected by men, there is no more sacrifice to offer them.

 

[claninja]

Everything God did in Israel is a shadow and a type of what He is now doing in the Church.

Possibly, but in the context of matthew 21-25, he is talking about Israel. Could provide scripture for statement so I could better understanding what you mean?

 

[Petros2015]

Maybe He just lets them stay here if that's what they want.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/what-the-death-of-the-sun-will-look-like-471796727

 

[joshua 1 9]

Could provide scripture for statement so I could better understanding what you mean?

The best example is Matthew Chapter 24 where Jesus answers TWO questions at the same time. When will the temple be destroyed and when will the end of the age take place. Today the Church is the temple of God.

 

[HereIStand]

No it does not. If you look the word up in the original language it means until the end of this age. Or even the end of the Ages. Even science does not believe in anything being eternal and without end. That was a theory that came and went. There is a beginning and an end and God knows the end from the beginning. That is why Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.

As I've read argued, the Bible speaks of heaven as everlasting. In this case, no one argues that everlasting means a momentary joy that ends. In the same way, hell can not be momentary misery that ends.

 

[hope4now]

Dear Luca Lalsie, I have to believe that God is wise and all His judgement s are right. The thing is, it is not our judgments but His. Try not to stumble over this very difficult issue.
I have had a few very difficult lessons in life. One was encountering a very evil person who pretended to be a Christian. This person caused so much pain for people I love. I got a glimpse of true evil, and then I realized that hell is perhaps not as unjust as I once thought.
Even so, you have a very kind heart and I hope you will reflect on God's mercy, because His heart is for us, not against us.

 

[claninja]

The best example is Matthew Chapter 24 where Jesus answers TWO questions at the same time. When will the temple be destroyed and when will the end of the age take place. Today the Church is the temple of God.

The question asked in Matthew 24 is the same question asked in the parallel accounts, and therefore means the same thing. The end of the age is not a separate event from the destruction of the temple.

Luke 21:7
And they asked him, “Teacher, when will this be (destruction of temple), and what will be the sign when this (the destruction of the temple) is about to take place?”

Mark 13:4
“Tell us, when will this be (destruction of temple), and what will be the sign when these things (destruction of temple) are all to be accomplished?”

 

[claninja]

The best example is Matthew Chapter 24 where Jesus answers TWO questions at the same time. When will the temple be destroyed and when will the end of the age take place. Today the Church is the temple of God.

Additionally, we know that Christ appeared at the full end of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice.
Hebrews 9:26

 

[Monk Brendan]

But God determined everything that will happen. Free will can't really exist.

Scripture verses, please, with book, chapter and verse, and be sure to use both testaments, and no study guides, para-translations, or notes from another author.

 

[Mr H A Bull]

What makes you think anyone has committed this sin, that their punishment will last "for eternity" or that God will not change His mind, e.g. if they repent? Or that the punishment cannot humble or purify them?

The answer is in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. If you read Luke 16:26 it describes how the rich man will never get out of hell.

Your answer is plainly in scripture.

 

[Code Phox]

We as Catholics DO NOT worship Mary. We pray to her and the saints for intercession.

Think of it this way. See God as the CEO of a company, Mary and the saints as an employee, and us as customers. It's easier for a customer to request that an employee talks to the CEO on their behalf rather than to talk to the CEO themselves.

I understand your view, however I do not agree:
1 Timothy 2:5 ESV
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
Psalm 34:17 ESV
"When the righteous cry for help, the Lord hears and delivers them out of all their troubles."
Matthew 6:9-13 ESV
"Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

I will pray to my God, no one else. Mary in my view was chosen by God because of her blood and was deemed worth. She was blessed by God to receive Jesus, but that's as far as it goes

Matthew 12:48-50 KJV
"But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

So, if you can pray to Mary or the Saints.. Can you also pray to 'whosoever shall do the will of my Father'?

Also, isn't the Catholic Church the one that was directly founded by Peter?

Please, show me where Peter says to pray to Mary or does it himself.

 

[Mr H A Bull]

But if he created it than surely he can take it away? I just do not understand because if he loved someone then why would he punish them forever?

The answer is in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. If you read Luke 16:26 it describes how the rich man will never get out of hell.

Your answer is plainly in scripture.

 

[Mr H A Bull]

He doesn't punish them forever. And God's punishment is always corrective.

I'm afraid he does... read Revelation end to end and then tell me that there's no eternal damnation. Any other ideas are from people trying to make scripture suit their lifestyle.

 

[Der Alte]

Actually it does.
The greek word used in Matthew 10:28 is ἀπολέσαι. This word means to fully and utterly destroy, cut off completely, permanent destruction, to cancel out.
Now if the greek word ἀπώλειαν was used, which means destruction but does not imply annihilation, then what your saying would be correct. However, that word isn't used in this verse

The word ἀπολέσαι/apolesai is the aorist, active, infinitive of ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi.
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
The definition of apollumi from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon.

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26,3 (cf.Sir 20:22).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
BAG Greek Lexicon online​

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Actually it does.

The greek word used in Matthew 10:28 is ἀπολέσαι. This word means to fully and utterly destroy, cut off completely, permanent destruction, to cancel out.

Now if the greek word ἀπώλειαν was used, which means destruction but does not imply annihilation, then what your saying would be correct. However, that word isn't used in this verse

Greetings @claninja
It does not mean destroy or kill as in does not exist any longer.

dichotomy of man’s nature, and the word “soul” includes all that truly lives and thinks and wills in man, and is therefore equivalent to the “soul and spirit”

The soul and carnal (man's natural) spirit lives on for eternity with or without the Father.
Blessings
FCJ

 

[Kenny'sID]

I would argue this has to do with the judgment of Israel because the context leading up to the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 21-24 is about the judgment of Israel.
Matthew 21:33-45 = parable of wicked tenants: destruction of Israel and kingdom going to another nation
Matthew 22:1-14 = parable of marriage feast: destruction of Israel and kingdom going to others
Matthew 23:1-39 = woes to Pharisees and Jerusalem for killing the prophets.
Matthew 24: prediction of jerusalem temple destruction and coming of son of man which will happen during the disciple's generation

Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27 all tell us that the son of man/kingdom of God will come before some of Jesus' disciples taste death. We also know that Christ is seated at the right hand of God on his throne.

Sheep= Gentiles and remnant elect Jews; Those who did not pursue righteousness but did obtain it. Notice the sheep's humble response in the parable of the sheep and goats. They did not even know they were doing righteousness for God. This fulfills what Isaiah 65:1 and what Paul says in Romans 9-11. T

Matthew 25:37-38 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
Romans 9:30
That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith;
Romans 10:20
“I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

Goats=hardened Israel; Those who pursued the law, but did not obtain righteousness. Notice the goat's self righteous response below. They pursued righteousness, but did not obtain it. Paul explains in this Romans 9-11

Matthew 25:44
Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
Romans 9:31
but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law.

My point is that this parable, when taken in context, is not about a future time from us, but about the end of the age/world and judgment for Israel as God's chose people.

"Sheep" = ALL people that did right and went to heaven

"Goats" = ALL people that did not do as Christ demands and love their neighbor, and were cast into outer darkness/Hell.

"claninja" = someone who has listened to false teachers that go to great lengths to twist the word to make it appear we don't need to do as we must in order to get to heaven.

Believing what you do is your business, but are you absolutely certain you want to teach it to others?

 

[5thKingdom]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

The answer to your three questions is here:


Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power;
and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.


Men suffering eternal torment can be saved from that torment... at the end of eternity.
Problem is.... eternity never ends.


.