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To Drink or not to Drink--That is the Question!!

StormyOne

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That being the case we need to acknowledge that the KJV and most english translations of the bible give us english equivalents of hebrew or jewish names... for example the disciples names were not Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.....

From the Hebrews Names Translation: check out the difference....

Mat 1:1-6 The book of the generation of Yeshua the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Avraham. (2) Avraham became the father of Yitzchak. Yitzchak became the father of Ya`akov. Ya`akov became the father of Yehudah and his brothers. (3) Yehudah became the father of Peretz and Zerach by Tamar. Peretz became the father of Chetzron. Chetzron became the father of Ram. (4) Ram became the father of `Amminadav. `Amminadav became the father of Nachshon. Nachshon became the father of Salmon. (5) Salmon became the father of Bo`az by Rachav. Bo`az became the father of `Oved 1 by Rut. `Oved 1 became the father of Yishai. (6) Yishai became the father of David the king. David became the father of Shlomo by her who had been the wife of Uriyah.
 
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Aug 20, 2005
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StormyOne said:
Why would God give permission for the COI to buy wine or strong drink and then they not drink it?


Stormy...I will answer your question when I get back from church today. It might do you some good to look into the drink offerings while i am gone. I'll see you soon! :wave:
 
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honorthesabbath

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Cliff2 said:
I do not know what the answer is but I do not that God does not change. God has said so many times in the Bible that strong drink is to be avoided so this time as well it is to be avoided.

It could be that there is something missing that we have not seen and something that has been added.

Take Mark 7:18,19

There are words that have been added that is not in the original. How do we know that it is not the same here.

18And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

19Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? (KJV)

18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") (NIV)

The extra that has been put there by the translators gives the text a new meaning that was never there.

I am not saying that is what has happened here but when a difficulty arises let's look beyond the apparent problems and look at the big picture.

Doug Batchelor just went over this subject AND this text this morning on Sabbath Central School. Might I suggest that all go to the Amazing Facts web site and listen to the whole lesson--then lets come back and discuss it!! (After church, which I'm leaving for in a few minutes)--lol

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media/lesson_study/lesson_study.asp?tTitle=Central%20Study%20Hour

Go to "Lord of our Temples"--you can watch it on video too!! FREE!!!!
 
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TrustAndObey

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Honor said:
Doug Batchelor just went over this subject AND this text this morning on Sabbath Central School. Might I suggest that all go to the Amazing Facts web site and listen to the whole lesson--then lets come back and discuss it!! (After church, which I'm leaving for in a few minutes)--lol

How wonderful! I've noticed so many times that when I'm troubled with a particular scripture, God always has a way of showing me the truth of it shortly afterwards!

This is more than ironic, it's an answer to a pray (literally)!!!!
 
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statrei

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TrustAndObey said:
How wonderful! I've noticed so many times that when I'm troubled with a particular scripture, God always has a way of showing me the truth of it shortly afterwards!

This is more than ironic, it's an answer to a pray (literally)!!!!
The same thing happens to people who believe things you do not believe. How do you explain that?
 
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kel32

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:wave: Hello...

As a winemaker, I just wanted to comment on a number of the posts that touched on the use of yeast in the winemaking process. Yes, yeast is used in the majority of winemaking - the yeast speeds up the breakdown of the sugars, resulting in fermentation. But, wine can in fact be made without using yeast as an additive. It takes a whole lot longer to make without using yeast, but natural fermentation can and will result over time, producing an alcoholic wine containing no yeast whatsoever.

~peace~
 
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NeverADullMoment

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I have been checking online about making wine, and every site I've come across says you do need yeast. I'll keep searching.

http://www.warpbreach.com/6/6.html

"I called yeast "magic fairy dust" earlier because it is what turns grape juice into wine. Without yeast, there would BE NO wine/beer/vodka/tequila/rum/whatever. So the next time you take a sip of alcohol, give thanks to the Big Guy for creating it."
 
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TrustAndObey

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You sparked my interest too Never.....I couldn't find even ONE website that said you could make wine without yeast. Not one.

http://www.uncork.com.au/tidbits7.htm

Alcohol and yeast in wine

The difference between a bottle of grape juice and a bottle of wine is the alcohol, but where does the alcohol come from?

Alcohol is the result of the fermentation process where a micro- organism (yeast) converts sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide gas. Yeast is a living organism that is critical to winemaking. Without yeast, there would be no beer, wine or spirits, bread, yoghurt or cheese. ‘God is Good’ was how yeast was referred to prior to 1859 when Louis Pasteur discovered that a single cell organism was responsible for the conversion of sugars into alcohol and carbon dioxide. The Egyptians were the earliest recorded users of yeasts. They brewed wine and they baked bread.



Yeasts are around 6-8 microns in size (1 micron is 1 millionth of a metre), it takes about 20 billion of them to make up 1 gram of yeast and the chemical reaction that happens is C6H12O6 + yeast = 2C2H5OH + 2CO2. Three common winemaking yeasts are:
  • Saccharomyces Banyus - Used for sparkling wines, known for compact lees and producing yeasty flavours. High alcohol tolerance and good tolerance to S02 levels. Often used to restart stuck fermentations. Examples of this yeast are EC- 1118, and Prise de Mousse.
  • Saccharomyces Cerevisiae - A good strain for fruity and aromatic wines. Favours malolactic fermentation, and should be used with nutrient. Examples of this yeast are D47, Epernay II, K1-V1116, Montrachet, Pasture Red.
  • Saccharomyces Fermentati - This is a Flor Sherry yeast used in the production of sherry type wines and helps impart the well rounded, whole flavours associated with sherries. Often used in conjunction with aerobic fermentations.

Yeast is grown commercially by starting with a known ‘strain’ of yeast, feeding it with molasses or other sugars so it multiplies and then harvesting it. Freeze dried yeast is the most popular form of yeast for wine making. It’s kept in the fridge till required. The yeast is ‘re-hydrated’ by adding it to water at 40°C and letting it stand for 20-30 minutes. This is then tipped into the wine must to start fermentation. There are hundreds of different yeasts available for making wine. Yeasts occur naturally on the skin of grapes but we kill those off before fermentation. These wild yeasts would give unpredictable results and who knows what flavour you would end up with. The winemaker decides what results he wants before the fermentation is started.

An example of one wine making yeast and the information available to the winemaker is shown below from the Lalvin company.



  • LALVIN (Dry) Wine Yeast Specifications ICV D-47
    Origin
    This strain was isolated from grapes grown in the Côtes-du-Rhône region of France by Dr. Dominique Delteil, head of the Microbiology Department, Institut coopératif du vin (ICV), in Montpellier. ICV D-47 strain was selected from 450 isolates collected between 1986 and 1990.
    OENOLOGICAL PROPERTIES AND APPLICATIONS
    The ICV D-47 is a low-foaming quick fermenter that settles well, forming a compact lees at the end of fermentation. This strain tolerates fermentation temperatures ranging from 10° to 30°C (50° to 86°F) and enhances mouthfeel due to complex carbohydrates. Malolactic fermentation proceeds well in wine made with ICV D-47. This strain is recommended for making wines from white varieties such as Chardonnay and Rosé. It is also an excellent choice for producing mead, however be sure to supplement with yeast nutrients, especially usable nitrogen.






Under Australian law a ‘product’ must include a statement of the percentage by volume of ethanol therein at 20°C, expressed to the nearest first decimal place and accurate to within 0.5% of ethanol at 20°C and can be:
  • Labelled wine if it has an alcohol content of between 6.5% and 15% ethanol by volume at 20°C
  • Called a low alcohol beverage if it has no more than 1.15% ethanol by volume at 20°C
  • Called a reduced alcohol wine if it has more than 1.15% but not more than 6.5% of ethanol by volume at 20°C
  • Not represented as de-alcoholised wine unless is contains at most 0.5% of ethanol by volume at 20°C and the grape variety can replace the word wine
  • Called a fortified wine (which is not a prescribed name unlike Port) if it has more that 15% and less than 22% of ethanol by volume at 20°C

These definitions vary around the world. And it may not be just for health or marketing purposes that the alcohol content is listed. A higher alcohol wine attracts higher taxes in many parts of the world.

You may see the words ‘proof’ on some labels. Proof is simply the percentage of alcohol times 2. If a wine is 14% alcohol it is 28 proof. This is mostly used on spirits rather than wines.


* Reproduced with permission from Peter Svans at The Gurdies Winery.
 
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HoneyDew

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kel32 said:
:wave: Hello...

As a winemaker, I just wanted to comment on a number of the posts that touched on the use of yeast in the winemaking process. Yes, yeast is used in the majority of winemaking - the yeast speeds up the breakdown of the sugars, resulting in fermentation. But, wine can in fact be made without using yeast as an additive. It takes a whole lot longer to make without using yeast, but natural fermentation can and will result over time, producing an alcoholic wine containing no yeast whatsoever.

~peace~

Hi Kel32, thanks for that post. I am curious about that process of making wine without yeast. Could you share some more info?
 
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StormyOne

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An interesting tidbit.... Grape juice is turned into alcohol by the process of "fermentation." Grapes on the vine are covered with yeast, mold and bacteria. By putting grape juice into a container at the right temperature, yeast ( SACCHROMYCES ELLIPSOIDUES ) will turn the sugar in the juice into alcohol and carbon dioxide. The grape juice will have fermented.

So the question of how grape juice can turn to wine, let it sit and the yeast that was on it will initiate the fermentation process...

again for the record... I am not condoning the consumption of alcohol.....
 
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TrustAndObey

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I have an e-mail in to a winemaker, and I'll share the response (if I get one) with the forum once I get it. This guy definitely knows his fungus! LOL His site is very interesting.

Unleavened bread is bread made without yeast, and the Bible is very specific about NOT using yeast for the Lord's Supper, so I am sure that stands true for wine as well. Yeast, natural or not, cannot be used for communion.

This will be a true learning experience for me because I know nothing about winemaking. All I know is that yeast of any kind is to be left out of communion.

I may be taking this thread off it's original topic though. Honor, tell me if you want me to move this to another thread called "Communion" or something, okay?
 
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SassySDA

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Stormy has a point that I had forgotten about. There is bacteria on the grapes...I don't know exactly what it's called, but I remember my father harvesting them as soon as they ripened, and he washed and washed them before putting them in the crocks that he made his wine in.

This tells me that whatEVER bacteria is on the grape naturally, it doesn't make a "tasty" wine, lol.

Any fruit will ferment if left to sit in the right temperature for a long enough period of time.

I do not condone drinking, because number one, though I guess it may not be able to be biblically proven, I don't believe Jesus partook of any alcoholic beverages...but even if that is so, that we CAN'T prove it to be biblical...the abstinance from alcohol, I still would feel as strongly as I do now against it.

It's a much more dangerous substance than most people realize.

It's just plain better for everyone's overall health.
 
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Rusticus

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SassySDA said:
....I do not condone drinking, because number one, though I guess it may not be able to be biblically proven, I don't believe Jesus partook of any alcoholic beverages...but even if that is so, that we CAN'T prove it to be biblical...the abstinance from alcohol, I still would feel as strongly as I do now against it.

It's a much more dangerous substance than most people realize.......

You might just as well say:

"I do not condone using the internet, because number one, though I guess it may not be able to be biblically proven, I don't believe Jesus partook of any use of the intenet...but even if that is so, that we CAN'T prove it to be biblical...the abstinance from the internet, I still would feel as strongly as I do now against it.

It's a much more dangerous substance than most people realize......."


So, what are we all doing here?
 
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