Thoughts on faith or works based salvation?

[Soyeong]

But you ain’t God are you? So why reject his plan for salvation.If he didn’t provide the law how would you know that you were a sinner In need of saving?

I didn't say that I was God and I do not reject His plan of salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4) so God's plan of saving us from living in transgression of His law is by teaching us to live in obedience to it. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe aspects of God's nature as it does to describe aspects of the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Roman 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23), and this is because it is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with those aspects of His nature and sin is what is contrary to His nature, such as with righteousness being in accordance with His nature while unrighteousness is sin. So while God's law was given to reveal our sin, this is only in contrast with being given to teach us how to know Him through acting in accordance with aspects of His nature (Exodus 33:13).

Read your bible and make proper sense of it.I suggest that you stop making it up to suit yourself and pray with a genuine heart that God will reveal what he actually means by what he says.

I've supported my position by quoting the Bible while you have repeatedly refused to do that, so it is evident that it supports my position and does not support your position. You are free to claim otherwise, but such as claim is without merit. Again, if the Bible supported your position, then you would not have this great difficultly in quoting where it does that. Anyone can make up anything they want about what the Bible says, but their claims should only be believed if they can show where the Bible supports their claim.

 

[Jasper10]

I didn't say that I was God and I do not reject His plan of salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4) so God's plan of saving us from living in transgression of His law is by teaching us to live in obedience to it. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe aspects of God's nature as it does to describe aspects of the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Roman 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23), and this is because it is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with those aspects of His nature and sin is what is contrary to His nature, such as with righteousness being in accordance with His nature while unrighteousness is sin. So while God's law was given to reveal our sin, this is only in contrast with being given to teach us how to know Him through acting in accordance with aspects of His nature (Exodus 33:13).


I've supported my position by quoting the Bible while you have repeatedly refused to do that, so it is evident that it supports my position and does not support your position. You are free to claim otherwise, but such as claim is without merit. Again, if the Bible supported your position, then you would not have this great difficultly in quoting where it does that. Anyone can make up anything they want about what the Bible says, but their claims should only be believed if they can show where the Bible supports their claim.

If you think so.Keep God out of it and try doing it all on your own if you are that foolish.Don’t blame God when satan turns on you though and he will.Your choice.

 

[Soyeong]

If you think so.Keep God out of it and try doing it all on your own if you are that foolish.Don’t blame God when satan turns on you though and he will.Your choice.

You are more than welcome to show otherwise by quoting where the Bible supports your position. We should never believe what anyone says about the Bible if they refuse to quote it.

Something that I do on my own does not involve relying on anyone else, so if I were doing something on my own, then it would not involve relying on what someone else has instructed. So it is incorrect for you to think that obediently relying on what God has instructed is keeping God out of it and trying to do it all on our my own. It is contradictory to think that God is trustworthy, but that what He has instructed is not. It is not Satan who has the role of leading us to obey what God has instructed.

 

[RileyG]

Salvation is a gift from God. You CAN NOT earn it.

 

[Jasper10]

You are more than welcome to show otherwise by quoting where the Bible supports your position. We should never believe what anyone says about the Bible if they refuse to quote it.

Something that I do on my own does not involve relying on anyone else, so if I were doing something on my own, then it would not involve relying on what someone else has instructed. So it is incorrect for you to think that obediently relying on what God has instructed is keeping God out of it and trying to do it all on our my own. It is contradictory to think that God is trustworthy, but that what He has instructed is not. It is not Satan who has the role of leading us to obey what God has instructed.

Salvation is a gift from God. You CAN NOT earn it.

I know and the reason I know is because I know I cannot save myself so I don’t intend to try.

 

[Soyeong]

Salvation is a gift from God. You CAN NOT earn it.

I know and the reason I know is because I know I cannot save myself so I don’t intend to try.

I agree. The goal of the law has never been to earn our salvation or to save ourselves, though choosing to live in obedience to it though faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. While Paul spoke against earning our justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be reasons why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to choose to do the work of driving it, but where that doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn the opportunity to drive it. In a similar manner, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and he gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to know God and Jesus, which is eternal life, which is also why Jesus said that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28), and which again has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift of eternal life.

 

[Jasper10]

I agree. The goal of the law has never been to earn our salvation or to save ourselves, though choosing to live in obedience to it though faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. While Paul spoke against earning our justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be reasons why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to choose to do the work of driving it, but where that doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn the opportunity to drive it. In a similar manner, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and he gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to know God and Jesus, which is eternal life, which is also why Jesus said that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28), and which again has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift of eternal life.

Even the devil knows God.Belief in God won’t save you.

The purpose of the the law was to prove to you that you are without hope because you cannot keep the law perfectly.so there is absolutely no point in trying to keep the law by doing by good works.You are wasting your time.

The purpose of Jesus coming and dying on the cross was to prove the law could be kept perfectly which he did.

So we have imperfection and perfection.

Perfection swapped places with imperfection as a payment for sin.

The bible clearly says this.

If you believe that Jesus who was without sin and perfect died for you a sinner who is imperfect then surely you wouod be grateful for him doing that and want to be obedient to him by carrying out good works.

Good works are carried out because an individual is thankful to God for what he has done for them,something that they couldn’t do for themselves by thinking that by doing good works,this is enough to enter heaven.It isn’t enough.

Imperfection cannot save imperfection on its own by doing imperfect works.

 

[Soyeong]

Even the devil knows God.Belief in God won’t save you.

Do you agree or disagree that God's law teaches us how to know Him? Or do you think that the Israelites had no idea about how to know God?

Do you agree or disagree that eternal life is knowing God and Jesus?

The purpose of the the law was to prove to you that you are without hope because you cannot keep the law perfectly.so there is absolutely no point in trying to keep the law by doing by good works.You are wasting your time.

Please either quote where the Bible states this or admit that it is your own theology that you made up.

The purpose of Jesus coming and dying on the cross was to prove the law could be kept perfectly

Please either quote where the Bible states this or admit that it is your own theology that you made up.

So we have imperfection and perfection.

Perfection swapped places with imperfection as a payment for sin.

The bible clearly says this.

If the Bible clearly says this, then you should not have this great difficulty in quoting where it says this. You should be able to back up everything that you think the Bible clearly says by quoting it. For example, if you think that the Bible clearly speaks against committing murder, then you should have no problem with citing Exodus 20:13 and we should not believe someone who claims that the Bible clearly speaks against committing murder for as long as they refuse to quote where it says that.

If you believe that Jesus who was without sin and perfect died for you a sinner who is imperfect then surely you wouod be grateful for him doing that and want to be obedient to him by carrying out good works.

Good works are carried out because an individual is thankful to God for what he has done for them,something that they couldn’t do for themselves by thinking that by doing good works,this is enough to enter heaven.It isn’t enough.

Imperfection cannot save imperfection on its own by doing imperfect works.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so while the Bible says that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, it does not say that he obeyed God's law on our behalf. Furthermore, becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is part of the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross, not the result of our gratitude, so while our gratitude does add motivation to obey God's law, it is not the source of our obligation. Other words, we would still be obligated to obey God's law even if Jesus hadn't given himself on the cross.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of God, so it is incorrect to think that there isn't anyone who enters heaven by doing the Father's will, or to think that doing the Father's will is something that we do for ourselves, or to think that doing the Father's will is about trying to do enough, or to think that there is a means of entering the Kingdom of Heaven other than doing the Father's will.

 

[Jasper10]

Do you agree or disagree that God's law teaches us how to know Him? Or do you think that the Israelites had no idea about how to know God?

Do you agree or disagree that eternal life is knowing God and Jesus?


Please either quote where the Bible states this or admit that it is your own theology that you made up.


Please either quote where the Bible states this or admit that it is your own theology that you made up.


If the Bible clearly says this, then you should not have this great difficulty in quoting where it says this. You should be able to back up everything that you think the Bible clearly says by quoting it. For example, if you think that the Bible clearly speaks against committing murder, then you should have no problem with citing Exodus 20:13 and we should not believe someone who claims that the Bible clearly speaks against committing murder for as long as they refuse to quote where it says that.


In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so while the Bible says that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, it does not say that he obeyed God's law on our behalf. Furthermore, becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is part of the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross, not the result of our gratitude, so while our gratitude does add motivation to obey God's law, it is not the source of our obligation. Other words, we would still be obligated to obey God's law even if Jesus hadn't given himself on the cross.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of God, so it is incorrect to think that there isn't anyone who enters heaven by doing the Father's will, or to think that doing the Father's will is something that we do for ourselves, or to think that doing the Father's will is about trying to do enough, or to think that there is a means of entering the Kingdom of Heaven other than doing the Father's will.

The sole purpose of the law was to prove that you cannot keep them perfectly so you are imperfect.If you are imperfect then you ain’t perfect.It’s a simple formula.

No amount of effort (imperfect works) is going to make you perfect either.

I don’t do imperfection I prefer perfection.

You really need to read what the bible is actually saying rather than what you have been told it is saying.

The bible clearly states that God cannot look on imperfection.

 

[Jasper10]

You either pay for your imperfection yourself or you let Jesus do it for you.

Simple.

There is nothing complicated about it.

It would appear that many are still foolishly prepared to have a go at paying for it themselves.

 

[Soyeong]

The sole purpose of the law was to prove that you cannot keep them perfectly so you are imperfect.If you are imperfect then you ain’t perfect.It’s a simple formula.

Why do you reuse to quote where the Bible says this if not because the Bible doesn't actually say this?

 

[Jasper10]

Why do you reuse to quote where the Bible says this if not because the Bible doesn't actually say this?

If you don’t want Jesus he won‘t want you.If you don’t let him take the punishment for all you sins then are on your own.The devil has done a good job on you.Imperfection cannot save imperfection as much as you believe it can.Read your bible properly.

 

[Soyeong]

If you don’t want Jesus he won‘t want you.If you don’t let him take the punishment for all you sins then are on your own.The devil has done a good job on you.Imperfection cannot save imperfection as much as you believe it can.Read your bible properly.

Why did you avoid answering my question?

 

[Jasper10]

Why did you avoid answering my question?

I am not avoiding answering your questions.You need interpret the whole of the bible in the way it was meant to be interpreted.If you are only seeing Jesus as a nice man who did a significantly better job than you in the trying to keep the laws perfectly.The best example we have of a mere man who we can all have faith in then you have interpreted the bible incorrectly.

 

[Soyeong]

I am not avoiding answering your questions.You need interpret the whole of the bible in the way it was meant to be interpreted.If you are only seeing Jesus as a nice man who did a significantly better job than you in the trying to keep the laws perfectly.The best example we have of a mere man who we can all have faith in then you have interpreted the bible incorrectly.

You are still avoiding answering my question. While I agree that we need to interpret the whole of the Bible in the way it was meant to be interpreted, that does not mean that you have the freedom to make claims about what the Bible says while being unable to show where it says that. Again, anyone can claim anything they want about what the Bible says, but they should not be believed for as long as they are unable to quote where it says that. For example, a number of people think that "cleanliness is next to godliness" is in the Bible, but the fact that they are unable to show where the Bible says that means that it is not actually what the Bible says. You have given no basis for yourself or anyone else to believe your claim that the sole purpose of the law was to prove that you cannot keep them perfectly, especially when the Bible has been shown to support that your claim is false. I've said nothing to suggest that I only see Jesus as a nice man who did a significantly better job than me in trying to keep the laws perfectly.

 

[Jasper10]

You are still avoiding answering my question. While I agree that we need to interpret the whole of the Bible in the way it was meant to be interpreted, that does not mean that you have the freedom to make claims about what the Bible says while being unable to show where it says that. Again, anyone can claim anything they want about what the Bible says, but they should not be believed for as long as they are unable to quote where it says that. For example, a number of people think that "cleanliness is next to godliness" is in the Bible, but the fact that they are unable to show where the Bible says that means that it is not actually what the Bible says. You have given no basis for yourself or anyone else to believe your claim that the sole purpose of the law was to prove that you cannot keep them perfectly, especially when the Bible has been shown to support that your claim is false. I've said nothing to suggest that I only see Jesus as a nice man who did a significantly better job than me in trying to keep the laws perfectly.

Please show me where purgatory is in the bible.

 

[Soyeong]

Please show me where purgatory is in the bible.

I did not claim it is in the Bible. Please answer my question.

 

[Jasper10]

I did not claim it is in the Bible. Please answer my question.

I have answered all your questions.The Ten Commandments need to be kept perfectly or you are a sinner before God according to the bible.

The bible says that God cannot look on sin so you have had it basically.

The bible can’t be any clearer.

Please explain how you are proposing to get yourself out of this situation on your own.

You must have a plan by the sounds of things because presently you may think you are going somewhere but it definitely ain’t into the presence of God that’s for sure.

Colossians 1:14

 

[Soyeong]

I have answered all your questions.The Ten Commandments need to be kept perfectly or you are a sinner before God according to the bible.

Please either quote where you answered my question or admit that you are lying. When you claim that something is according to the Bible, you need to quote where it is according to the Bible otherwise your claim has no substance.

 

[Jasper10]

Please either quote where you answered my question or admit that you are lying. When you claim that something is according to the Bible, you need to quote where it is according to the Bible otherwise your claim has no substance.

I just have.Even the devil and his demons have faith in God.

James 2:19