Thoughts on faith or works based salvation?

[Jasper10]

Nowhere does the Bible say that you need to keep the Ten Commandments perfectly or you will not enter God's presence, but rather again it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey. God's law was given with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so perfect obedience was never a requirement for us. Jesus is God's word made flesh, so obeying God's word is not taking him out of the church. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on His law, while to speak against relying on God's law is to speak against relying on God. Trying to save ourselves would not be relying anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that we are trying to save ourselves by relying on what God has instructed, and it is absurd to interpret John 10:1 as saying that those who rely on what God has instructed are trying to climb up some other way rather than entering through the gate.

Nowhere does it say you need to keep the ten commandments perfectly because you definitely can't keep them perfectly. That doesn't mean that they don't need to be kept perfectly. They do. So if you can't keep them perfectly then someone is going to have to do it for you or you have had it.

You have completely re-interpreted the bible to suit yourself and are totally lost as a result.

A PERFECT God does not do IMPERFECTION my friend

You are totally UNAWARE.

 

[Soyeong]

Nowhere does it say you need to keep the ten commandments perfectly because you definitely can't keep them perfectly. That doesn't mean that they don't need to be kept perfectly. They do. So if you can't keep them perfectly then someone is going to have to do it for you or you have had it.

You have completely re-interpreted the bible to suit yourself and are totally lost as a result.

A PERFECT God does not do IMPERFECTION my friend

You are totally UNAWARE.

Nowhere does the Bible say that we need to have perfect obedience or speak about anything that we fail to earn as a wage if we fail to have perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have failed to have perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we don't need to have perfect obedience, and the consistent message of the prophets was the call for repentance, not for perfect obedience. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ. So thinking that we need to have perfect obedience has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of Scripture. If you think I have reinterpreted Scripture to suit myself, then by all means please make the case for it, but there is no point in you accusing me of doing that in lieu of supporting your accusation.

 

[Jasper10]

Nowhere does the Bible say that we need to have perfect obedience or speak about anything that we fail to earn as a wage if we fail to have perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have failed to have perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we don't need to have perfect obedience, and the consistent message of the prophets was the call for repentance, not for perfect obedience. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ. So thinking that we need to have perfect obedience has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of Scripture. If you think I have reinterpreted Scripture to suit myself, then by all means please make the case for it, but there is no point in you accusing me of doing that in lieu of supporting your accusation.

I never said that an individual needs to keep them perfectly because no individual can keep them perfectly but nobody will enter heaven if their imperfections of not having kept the laws perfectly have been dealt with and it is impossible to do that yourself.

Only perfection can deal with imperfection.Imperfection can not deal with imperfection.We are powerless to do anything therefore and are totally reliant on God doing it for us.

 

[Soyeong]

I never said that an individual needs to keep them perfectly because no individual can keep them perfectly but nobody will enter heaven if their imperfections of not having kept the laws perfectly have been dealt with and it is impossible to do that yourself.

Only perfection can deal with imperfection.Imperfection can not deal with imperfection.We are powerless to do anything therefore and are totally reliant on God doing it for us.

The Book of Exodus ends with the glory of God descending on the tent of meeting and the problem of no one being able to draw near while Leviticus begins with God calling out instructions for how to draw near to God, so people are able to enter into God's presence in spite of not having perfect obedience, so again that was never a requirement for us. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is about choosing a mountain and climbing it, about whether we are going to choose to follow God or to chase after other gods, not about whether or not we have perfect obedience.

Jesus did not begin his ministry calling for people to have perfect obedience int order to enter heaven, but to repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, so the requirement to enter the Kingdom of Heaven is not perfect obedience, but rather it is repentance, and repentance implies that we have already sinned and fallen short of perfect obedience. In Psalms 40:8, the Father has made His will known through what He has commanded through His law, and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that those who are workers of lawlessness will be told to depart from him because he never knew them, which does not say anything about needing perfect obedience or leave room for someone to be a worker of lawlessness while Jesus does the Father's will in our place.

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, in Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, in Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments will be given the right to eat from the tree of life, and none of these verses say anything about needing to have perfect obedience.

Again, the the goal of the law is not to have perfect obedience, but to know God and Jesus, which is eternal life (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23). It is incorrect to consider obediently relying on what God instructed to be something that we do ourselves rather than to be relying on God. If I were lost and asked someone for directions, then I would be putting my faith in them to correctly guide me by following exactly what they instructed, and it would not be giving credit where it is due for me to think that I was saving myself from being lost by following their instructions. What God is doing for us is leading us to obey Him.

 

[Jasper10]

The Book of Exodus ends with the glory of God descending on the tent of meeting and the problem of no one being able to draw near while Leviticus begins with God calling out instructions for how to draw near to God, so people are able to enter into God's presence in spite of not having perfect obedience, so again that was never a requirement for us. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is about choosing a mountain and climbing it, about whether we are going to choose to follow God or to chase after other gods, not about whether or not we have perfect obedience.

Jesus did not begin his ministry calling for people to have perfect obedience int order to enter heaven, but to repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, so the requirement to enter the Kingdom of Heaven is not perfect obedience, but rather it is repentance, and repentance implies that we have already sinned and fallen short of perfect obedience. In Psalms 40:8, the Father has made His will known through what He has commanded through His law, and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that those who are workers of lawlessness will be told to depart from him because he never knew them, which does not say anything about needing perfect obedience or leave room for someone to be a worker of lawlessness while Jesus does the Father's will in our place.

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, in Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, in Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments will be given the right to eat from the tree of life, and none of these verses say anything about needing to have perfect obedience.

Again, the the goal of the law is not to have perfect obedience, but to know God and Jesus, which is eternal life (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23). It is incorrect to consider obediently relying on what God instructed to be something that we do ourselves rather than to be relying on God. If I were lost and asked someone for directions, then I would be putting my faith in them to correctly guide me by following exactly what they instructed, and it would not be giving credit where it is due for me to think that I was saving myself from being lost by following their instructions. What God is doing for us is leading us to obey Him.

Incorrect,the goal of the law is perfect obedience but as it is impossible for us to attain that perfect obedience then God needs to obtain that perfect obedience on our behalf and we need to be found in him, covered by his righteous just like Noah had to enter the arc.If you are not found in Jesus trusting that he did it all and we did absolutely nothing at all to obtain perfection and we remain outside of Jesus then your imperfection shall not enter Gods presence PERIOD because God cannot look on imperfection.It clearly states this in the bible.You are confused and have completely misunderstood and misinterpreted what the bible is saying.

 

[Brihaha]

-​

In receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation, works by a person account for absolutely nothing before God.

Receiving Eternal Life happens in a moment of time, in that moment of faith in The Messiah, a person permanently crosses over from death to life never to cross back over. They become a permanent born again child of God. God's not only provides the free gift of Eternal Life, free of works by a person. But God also permanently keeps the born again child of God, regardless of how they live out their lives, in the faith or fallen away from faith.

James 2:20-24. A man is justified by his works in God's eyes. And not by faith only. James 2:26 straight up tells us faith without works is dead like a body without the spirit. While the gift of salvation is attained thru faith alone, we flawed mortals can easily cede this gift back to God without we work it. This seems very clear. One can receive the gift of salvation, and one can also waste this gift without working and developing one's faith. These people who were granted salvation but do not heed God's word, are likely the "lost sheep" referenced in Matthew and Luke. I read some of their comments here daily.

 

[Soyeong]

Incorrect,the goal of the law is perfect obedience but as it is impossible for us to attain that perfect obedience then God needs to obtain that perfect obedience on our behalf and we need to be found in him, covered by his righteous just like Noah had to enter the arc.If you are not found in Jesus trusting that he did it all and we did absolutely nothing at all to obtain perfection and we remain outside of Jesus then your imperfection shall not enter Gods presence PERIOD because God cannot look on imperfection.It clearly states this in the bible.You are confused and have completely misunderstood and misinterpreted what the bible is saying.

In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by choosing to obey it, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in practicing those and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to God's law is the way to know Him, and Jesus, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law, and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. Likewise, Abraham and everyone else listed in Hebrews 11 were all saved by grace through faith and none of these people had perfect obedience.

There is no point in thinking that the law having a goal that is impossible to obtain, especially when God's word says that it is not too difficult for us to obey, and especially when there are many examples of people who did obtain that goal by obeying it. Nowhere does the Bible state that we need to have perfect obedience or that God needs to obtain perfect obedience on our behalf.

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he did. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to trust in the Gospel that he taught during his ministry and the way to trust in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is incorrect to think that obeying God's word is something that we do apart from trusting completely in him.

You are free to write "PERIOD" in all caps, but the difference between us is that I have cited a number of verses that support that the goal of the law is knowing God and Jesus and that it is not perfect obedience, and I can cite more verses that do that, whereas you are unwilling or unable to cite any verses that support that the goal of the law is perfect obedience or that show that it is not to know God and Jesus. It is one thing for you to claim that I am confused and have completely misunderstood and misinterpreted what the Bible is saying and it is another thing for you to use the Bible to support your claim.

 

[Jasper10]

In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by choosing to obey it, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in practicing those and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to God's law is the way to know Him, and Jesus, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law, and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. Likewise, Abraham and everyone else listed in Hebrews 11 were all saved by grace through faith and none of these people had perfect obedience.

There is no point in thinking that the law having a goal that is impossible to obtain, especially when God's word says that it is not too difficult for us to obey, and especially when there are many examples of people who did obtain that goal by obeying it. Nowhere does the Bible state that we need to have perfect obedience or that God needs to obtain perfect obedience on our behalf.

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he did. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to trust in the Gospel that he taught during his ministry and the way to trust in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is incorrect to think that obeying God's word is something that we do apart from trusting completely in him.

You are free to write "PERIOD" in all caps, but the difference between us is that I have cited a number of verses that support that the goal of the law is knowing God and Jesus and that it is not perfect obedience, and I can cite more verses that do that, whereas you are unwilling or unable to cite any verses that support that the goal of the law is perfect obedience or that show that it is not to know God and Jesus. It is one thing for you to claim that I am confused and have completely misunderstood and misinterpreted what the Bible is saying and it is another thing for you to use the Bible to support your claim.

The sole purpose the law was provided by God was to prove to you any everyone else that it is impossibe for you or anyone else to keep them perfectly (and they do need to be kept perfectly).Jesus who kept the laws perfectly only swaps places with the individual who genuinely from the heart knows this and is grateful that he was prepared to take the wrap for them.

You are mistaken and confused and have misinterpreted the bible.

Make sure you understand what it is actually saying and not what you think it is saying.

 

[Soyeong]

The sole purpose the law was provided by God was to prove to you any everyone else that it is impossibe for you or anyone else to keep them perfectly (and they do need to be kept perfectly).

Please quote where the Bible states this.

Jesus who kept the laws perfectly only swaps places with the individual who genuinely from the heart knows this and is grateful that he was prepared to take the wrap for them.

Please quote where the Bible states this.

You are mistaken and confused and have misinterpreted the bible.

Please use the Bible to support this.

If you made any claim that you are unable to support, then please admit that you were mistaken.

 

[RDKirk]

Even if someone managed to have perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their justification as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), so the reasons that we can't earn our justification as a wage by obeying it is not because we fall short of perfect obedience to it, but because it was never given as a means of earning our justification - that was never the goal of the law, which is why there are many verses that speak against that fundamental misunderstanding of its goal. Yet, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 that say that only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified, so clearly there must be reasons that our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than for the goal of earning it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Roman 3:31 says that our faith does not abolish our need to obey the Mosaic Law, but rather our faith upholds it.

Yes. Romans 4 is a vital chapter to understand. It is Paul who introduces the concept of "saved by faith, not works" as a specific argument (through which he reconciles the actions of Jesus with the implications of the Mosaic Law). Because it's his argument, we have to recognize that he defines the terms of his argument, and he explicitly defines what he means by "work" and what he does not mean by "work."

Yes, in the terms of Paul's argument in Romans, "work" is what is done by a person to create an obligation upon his employer. But there is no work we can do that creates an obligation upon God for our salvation.

Paul tells us in verse 5 that the man who does no work is saved by this faith and belief. Thus, faith and belief are not work in Paul's argument because he defines them as not work.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes. Romans 4 is a vital chapter to understand. It is Paul who introduces the concept of "saved by faith, not works" as a specific argument (through which he reconciles the actions of Jesus with the implications of the Mosaic Law). Because it's his argument, we have to recognize that he defines the terms of his argument, and he explicitly defines what he means by "work" and what he does not mean by "work."

Yes, in the terms of Paul's argument in Romans, "work" is what is done by a person to create an obligation upon his employer. But there is no work we can do that creates an obligation upon God for our salvation.

Paul tells us in verse 5 that the man who does no work is saved by this faith and belief. Thus, faith and belief are not work in Paul's argument because he defines them as not work.

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are the law of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same works as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11, so Paul was not always referring to the same thing by doing works.

Furthermore, we should also consider that the same works can be done for many different purposes and that the Bible can affirm that our salvation requires us to choose to do works for certain correct purposes, such as faith (Romans 2:13), while speaking against our salvation requiring us to choose works for other incorrect purposes, such as with earning it as a wage. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage as the result of our obedience to it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. So while faith and belief are not works done to earn a wage, that does not mean that they are not works.

 

[Jasper10]

Please quote where the Bible states this.


Please quote where the Bible states this.


Please use the Bible to support this.

If you make any claim that you are unable to support, then please admit that you were mistaken.

I am not mistaken at all. I need Jesus to have kept the laws perfectly so that I can swap places with him.I get his perfection and he takes on my imperfection and I am so grateful that God allows this transaction to take place so that I can enter heaven.What an amazing God of Love.

You cannot enter heaven unless perfection keeps the laws perfectly on your behalf and also takes the full blame for your imperfection.

Astounding.

 

[Soyeong]

I am not mistaken at all. I need Jesus to have kept the laws perfectly so that I can swap places with him.I get his perfection and he takes on my imperfection and I am so grateful that God allows this transaction to take place so that I can enter heaven.What an amazing God of Love.

You cannot enter heaven unless perfection keeps the laws perfectly on your behalf and also takes the full blame for your imperfection.

Astounding.

Anyone can make up anything that they want about what the Bible says, so my concern is not about what you claim that the Bible says, but with what you can show that it says. So far you appear to be unable to cite verses that support your position and willing to disregard verses that are contrary to your position all while ironically insisting that I'm the one who has misunderstood the Bible.

 

[Jasper10]

Anyone can make up anything that they want about what the Bible says, so my concern is not about what you claim that the Bible says, but with what you can show that it says. So far you appear to be unable to cite verses that support your position and willing to disregard verses that are contrary to your position all while ironically insisting that I'm the one who has misunderstood the Bible.

You have misunderstood the bible.

God is holy and cannot look on sin and you think you can enter his presence on your own having not kept his laws perfectly?

I don’t think so.

 

[Soyeong]

You have misunderstood the bible.

God is holy and cannot look on sin and you think you can enter his presence on your own having not kept his laws perfectly?

I don’t think so.

Certainly there are people who have entered into God's presence who did not live perfect lives. The High Priest went into the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur, but even he did not live in perfect obedience to God's law.

 

[Jasper10]

Certainly there are people who have entered into God's presence who did not live perfect lives. The High Priest went into the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur, but even he did not live in perfect obedience to God's law.

A sacrifice was given before he did enter.

You cannot enter Gods presence on your own because you are imperfect because you have not kept the laws perfectly.

Don‘t dismiss the whole point of the gospels.

You have completely misunderstood the bibles teachings.

 

[d taylor]

James 2:20-24. A man is justified by his works in God's eyes. And not by faith only. James 2:26 straight up tells us faith without works is dead like a body without the spirit. While the gift of salvation is attained thru faith alone, we flawed mortals can easily cede this gift back to God without we work it. This seems very clear. One can receive the gift of salvation, and one can also waste this gift without working and developing one's faith. These people who were granted salvation but do not heed God's word, are likely the "lost sheep" referenced in Matthew and Luke. I read some of their comments here daily.

-​

A person is justified before God by faith in Jesus after their act of faith in Jesus. They are justified before man by works. Why because God can see the mind/heart of a person, but man can only see a person actions.

 

[ViaCrucis]

There are some passages which emphasise that you only need to accept christ to go to heaven, whereas others emphasise that works are needed also to go to heaven.

I have heard that once you accept christ, he will work in you so that you perform the works needed to go to heaven. So technically both but accepting christ alone is what causes the works to happen.

However, there are people that accept christ but then end up falling off the path, some even dying before they stop backsliding and havent done any works.

What are your thoughts on this matter?

If it boils down to what we have to do to "get to heaven", then that would be works anyway. As a work is "a thing that is done". If faith is something we do--a work--then that is still works. A work is a work is a work.

I'm a Lutheran, which means I don't believe in any kind of salvation by works; rather I believe that salvation is by God's grace alone.

Grace-based salvation means that it is God who does the work, not us. And that includes faith. Faith is not something I do, I do not "accept Christ to go to heaven". Rather God, through Christ, has already accomplished the work and now graciously comes down to me through Word and Sacrament to give me faith as a pure gift. Thus through faith we are justified, not by our efforts or works of faith; but rather by God imputing to us the righteousness of Jesus Christ, faith takes hold of that promise and trusts in it.

Good works are not done for God as though God is impressed by whatever works we do. Rather the Apostle St. Paul has written that we were created for good works prepared for us in Christ Jesus that we should walk in them. These good works are borne of faith and freedom; they do not earn us anything from God, but rather are done out of a loving obedience, a new obedience, not of a slave but as a child of God.

There's a popular saying among Lutherans, "God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does."

That is a short and sweet summary of the Two Kinds of Righteousness, a major theological point in Lutheranism. That there is a righteousness before God "How is a person made right with God?" and there is a righteousness before our neighbors "How is a person made right with their neighbor?". The first kind of righteousness is called a passive righteousness, because it is the righteousness that is from God, as a pure gift, it is in fact the alien and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. Thus the vertical relationship, the one between us and God, is a space occupied by Christ and Christ alone, and faith alone receives this--that is the "righteousness which is by faith" that Paul mentions. There is also the horizontal relationship, between us and our neighbors, this is called an active righteousness because it is about what we actually do and how we live: To actually love others, feed them when they are hungry, to do what is right because it benefits those around us.

Two kinds of righteousness means there is that righteousness which is before God, which is Grace Alone, Faith Alone, and Christ Alone. And there is a righteousness which is before other people, which is by our works.

Because of this this strict distinction, we can never look to our works to view our relationship with God; and conversely we can never think that because God has forgiven us and "where sin abounds grace abounds all the more" that we are off the hook from a life of active good works, of obedience to God.

If we understand this distinction then everything in Scripture falls into place. James is not teaching that we must measure up to God and earn our place before God through good works, to be righteous before God by our works. Instead, see how St. James instead teaches how we are to relate to our neighbors. James is not speaking Gospel, how we are reconciled to God; but Law, and the proper place of the Law in our active Christian lives: how we are made right with our fellow human beings made in God's image.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Arcangl86]

~GOD~

Not unless you think John Darby is God. His interpretation was unheard for most of the history of the Church.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

So it may come down to the motives for your good works.
Are you doing good works to achieve some standard to make it to heaven?
Or are you doing the good works because something inside you is driving you to the works?