Thou shalt not kill / murder

[benjdm]

What does this commandment mean ? I know of such a low percentage of Christians who are pacifists (actually, I know zero, but I'm sure some are) that obviously it does not mean thou shalt not kill anyone ever. Can anyone provide a good explanation or point me to one ?

 

[ebia]

Killing people is always wrong. There are times when we might be reduced to it through our failure to find an alternative or because we see it as the least bad option. But it's always wrong.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

I know if I say something on this issue, I am going to get some hateful responses, still, I'll say it anyway. When a police officer kills someone while defending either himself or another person, is he commiting a sin? How about us in the military? When we kill others while defending our nation, are we sinning? Noone know that correct answer on that. I will say no, we are not sinning.

Am I a pacifist? If you look at how most Marines are of my rank and my personality, you can tell I'm a pacifist. In the Marine Corps, we are always taught that the use of deadly force is the final option, after all other means have been exausted.

Prayer to the Lord is the best answer for this question.

 

[Harlan Norris]

What does this commandment mean ? I know of such a low percentage of Christians who are pacifists (actually, I know zero, but I'm sure some are) that obviously it does not mean thou shalt not kill anyone ever. Can anyone provide a good explanation or point me to one ?

Jesus gave us just two commandments. Love the lord thy God with all thy strength and all thy heart, and love thy neighbor as thyself. This seems to me to mean, definatly, don't kill anybody. Obviously you wouldn't kill yourself, so, you wouldn't kill your neighbor.

 

[tocis]

Killing people is always wrong. There are times when we might be reduced to it through our failure to find an alternative or because we see it as the least bad option. But it's always wrong.

 

[tocis]

Jesus gave us just two commandments. Love the lord thy God with all thy strength and all thy heart, and love thy neighbor as thyself. This seems to me to mean, definatly, don't kill anybody. Obviously you wouldn't kill yourself, so, you wouldn't kill your neighbor.

Basically true. Unfortunately, "love God" can mean quite a lot of different things actually, depending on what part of the bible you refer to... which, as far as I can tell, is responsible for a major part of all those problems.
If you adore Jesus for being such a kind and peaceful role model, you can be said to "love God". But if you, say, stone an adulteress to death, you are doing what God supposedly told you to do via the OT, so aren't you "loving God" that way too? Yes, it has been said in the NT that the two commandments you quoted replace all the OT ones... but then, in another verse Jesus says that "I have not come to replace but to fulfill" or similar (I don't have that verse memorized, but I trust you know which one I mean)... so what course to take?

The tough questions a christian has to face, sooner or later...

 

[benjdm]

So far, 3 'it's always wrong' and 1 that confuses me.

Am I a pacifist? If you look at how most Marines are of my rank and my personality, you can tell I'm a pacifist. In the Marine Corps, we are always taught that the use of deadly force is the final option, after all other means have been exausted.

pac·i·fism n.

1. The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully.
   1. Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving disputes.
   2. Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action.

I don't see how you could be a marine and be a pacifist. Did you mean to say you were not a pacifist ?

 

[Murmur]

I think killing another human is acceptable in self-defense. If I were being physically attacked, I believe my self-preservation instinct would kick in.

 

[In A Perfect World]

I think killing another human is acceptable in self-defense. If I were being physically attacked, I believe my self-preservation instinct would kick in.

If anything, you commit the lesser of two evils. You can either let someone commit a transgression and kill you. Or you can kill them first, escape death, and accept the option you probably like best.

 

[Dewi Sant]

Basically true. Unfortunately, "love God" can mean quite a lot of different things actually, depending on what part of the bible you refer to... which, as far as I can tell, is responsible for a major part of all those problems.
If you adore Jesus for being such a kind and peaceful role model, you can be said to "love God". But if you, say, stone an adulteress to death, you are doing what God supposedly told you to do via the OT, so aren't you "loving God" that way too? Yes, it has been said in the NT that the two commandments you quoted replace all the OT ones... but then, in another verse Jesus says that "I have not come to replace but to fulfill" or similar (I don't have that verse memorized, but I trust you know which one I mean)... so what course to take?

The tough questions a christian has to face, sooner or later...

I'm afraid that is not the case.

The bible does not contradict itself in that case.
When Jesus came he brought a "New Covenant".

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Also using the example you gave Jesus said this:

John 8:7
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

But anyway I agree with ebia. Killing is always wrong. Not only does it break the one of the ten commandments but it also breaks the commandment of "Love thy neighbor" and the general moral code of humanity.
I don't think it is human nature for people just to go round killing each other. It isn't morally acceptable with or without biblical commandments.

 

[AvgJoe]

What does this commandment mean ? I know of such a low percentage of Christians who are pacifists (actually, I know zero, but I'm sure some are) that obviously it does not mean thou shalt not kill anyone ever. Can anyone provide a good explanation or point me to one ?

This commandment means not to murder another innocent human being. Three biblical exceptions to this commandment are:

The Exception of Self-Defense--Ex.22:2
-Valid because your life and that of your loved ones is threatened

The Exception of War--Num. 10:9 “the enemy that oppresseth you”
-Valid because your country is threatened/an extension of self-defense

The Exception of Capital Punishment--Gen. 9:5-6
-Valid because a life has been taken.

Where capital punishment is not practiced on murderers, the land becomes guilty of blood--Num. 35:31-34

 

[sinner/SAVED]

I know of such a low percentage of Christians who are pacifists (actually, I know zero, but I'm sure some are)

You must know very few Christians.

 

[Druweid]

When a police officer kills someone while defending either himself or another person, is he commiting a sin?

Many years ago, I knew of a law officer (I'll call him Officer Kelliher) who went through quite a personal ordeal. When he approached a young man (17, I think) climbing from a store window, in an alley, late at night, he identified himself as an officer and told him to remain still. As you may have guessed, the young man turned, producing a hand gun, and aimed it with fairly obvious intent of firing it. Officer Kelliher fired, killing the young man instantly.

This left Officer Kelliher in a fit of grief for several months. I happened to be there when he was speaking to the local Catholic priest about it. The priest told him "You and I both know you couldn't have had a drop of maliciousness in your heart when you pulled that trigger. If you could have wished or prayed the gun out of that boys hand, I know, God as my witness, you would have done it. It's tragic and regrettable, but I see no sin whatsoever."

I honestly don't know if Officer Kelliher ever came to terms with it, but I believe that priest was truly on to something.

Just my thoughts,
Druweid

 

[Cleany]

What does this commandment mean ? I know of such a low percentage of Christians who are pacifists (actually, I know zero, but I'm sure some are) that obviously it does not mean thou shalt not kill anyone ever. Can anyone provide a good explanation or point me to one ?

it is a part of jewish law, and jewish law doesnt apply to you. im sure anyone can think of an example when killing someone could be said to be "right", but they would only have to do that in defence of a literalist attack.

i think in most cases its unhealthy to try to find the "right answer" from a single verse of scripture, so that you "know" the "truth". life just isnt that simple.

 

[WBC]

It's a moral guideline so people can co-exist in peace. Hasn't worked real well thus far.

As far as being taken literally... I find it hard to expect everyone (mainly Christians since it's their 'rule') to abide by a commandment that God gave them yet violated many times over himself in a "Do as I say not as I do" way.
Everything in nature kills, however man kills out of greed, hate, jealousy etc while most other animals kill mainly for survival, be it mating rights, territorial etc... man also shares in these as well.
Killing is a part of nature, just as being born, growing old, and dying naturally are.
Overall it's a good commandment / rule by any standards, but just not a very realistic one to expect everyone to follow.

 

[Catholicism]

What does this commandment mean ? I know of such a low percentage of Christians who are pacifists (actually, I know zero, but I'm sure some are) that obviously it does not mean thou shalt not kill anyone ever. Can anyone provide a good explanation or point me to one ?

Murder is the Killing of an innocent Human Being.

 

[WBC]

Murder is the Killing of an innocent Human Being.

There are innocent human beings?
And innocent of what?
What do we call it when we kill someone who isn't innocent?

 

[benjdm]

Just to let everyone know, I have not abandoned the thread and am reading every post.

- OP'er

 

[Miles]

I am both a pacifist and a Christian. My views on the topic are similar to those of the Pennsylvania Quakers. I favor diplomacy over violence, support a harmonious toleration of other beliefs etc.

I view "thou shalt not kill" as a commandment to avoid killing as a means of settling an argument, debate or negotiation etc. Plus, I'd rather avoid being killed myself. My neighbor is another person's "self", and he or she probably doesn't want to be killed either. If we refrain from killing each other willy-nilly, the world will be a vastly more hospitable place than if we all decided to commit murder for fun and games.

That said, while I may not believe in initiating or supporting aggressive violence, I will defend myself if attacked. If an aggressor loses his life in the process of violently assaulting my person (or family, property etc.), it's his own fault.

 

[benjdm]

I thought pacifists eschewed all violence, even self defense. Hmmm.....looking at definition again, I might be mistaken.

That said, while I may not believe in initiating or supporting aggressive violence, I will defend myself if attacked. If an aggressor loses his life in the process of violently assaulting my person (or family, property etc.), it's his own fault.

Going beyond the original question, why ? Once you believe in eternal life, no aggressor can do you any significant harm. Why risk anything when so little is at risk ? When I say so little is at risk, I mean it in terms of a few years' difference in mortal lifetime being insignificant compared to eternity, not to belittle you or your family.