This is serious......READ!!!!!!!

[seebs]

seebs have you read the Narnia series by C.S. Lewis?

Many times. The comparison with the whole "Tash" vs. "Aslan" thing is fascinating, and could be applied either way; one could argue that these people are using the right name, but secretly worshipping the wrong God, or we could argue that some of them have the name wrong, but are clearly doing the right things.

But... In the non-fantasy world we live in, we are told that there's only one God. And, while some people who claim to follow Him may be wrong, well, that's true of professed Christians, as well.

 

[BT]

Many times. The comparison with the whole "Tash" vs. "Aslan" thing is fascinating, and could be applied either way; one could argue that these people are using the right name, but secretly worshipping the wrong God, or we could argue that some of them have the name wrong, but are clearly doing the right things.

But... In the non-fantasy world we live in, we are told that there's only one God. And, while some people who claim to follow Him may be wrong, well, that's true of professed Christians, as well.

Yes very fascinating. And not applicable to this conversation. The whole discussion just reminded me of that, so I thought I'd recommend them if you hadn't read them is all... I haven't read those in a few years, mabey I should read through them again..

 

[seebs]

Yes very fascinating. And not applicable to this conversation. The whole discussion just reminded me of that, so I thought I'd recommend them if you hadn't read them is all... I haven't read those in a few years, mabey I should read through them again..

They're awesome books. I was a little offended as a kid by the heavy-handedness of the Christian allegory, but they're still very good stories.

 

[eldermike]

So, do you believe the Jewish people's prayers are never answered?

The Theology concerning the covenant with the Hebrew people is complex and would confuse this issue here. God made several promises to the Jews.

Here is an example:
EX 29:44 "So I will consecrate the Tent of Meeting and the altar and will consecrate Aaron and his sons to serve me as priests. 45 Then I will dwell among the Israelites and be their God. 46 They will know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am the LORD their God.

This is an example of a promise that has a requirement: They are required to know God.

and another example:

2CH 7:13 "When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, 14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 15 Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place. 16 I have chosen and consecrated this temple so that my Name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.

Where is this temple, NOW!? It's you and me.

So, yes I think God hears the prayers of the Jewish people. However John 8 is clear to me. Calling His name means you must know that Jesus is the Christ! God will destroy all who do not do so. Claiming a blood line is clearly defeated in John 8.

Our Father in Heaven is Jesus. Hallowed be Your name means you understand more than the history of God's people.

REV 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

In this current age our job is not to search scripture to find many ways to God, but it's to proclaim the good news of Christ. The idea that God hears every attempt to come to His Throne is totally against the great commission, and it's part of an "order of things", that will pass away.

There are covenants that God will not break, but as gentiles we can't make up rules for proclaiming Jesus as Christ and Savior. We preach that Jesus is God, to the Jews as well as the Muslim.

Mike

 

[BT]

They're awesome books. I was a little offended as a kid by the heavy-handedness of the Christian allegory, but they're still very good stories.

I first had them read to me in school (Catholic School) and I had no idea that they had anything to do with Christianity. So I was kind of shocked when someone told me that later in life (around 18 years old) so I read them again. I saw it that time.

 

[eightfoot514]

The Theology concerning the covenant with the Hebrew people is complex and would confuse this issue here. God made several promises to the Jews.

This is an example of a promise that has a requirement: They are required to know God.

and another example:


Where is this temple, NOW!? It's you and me.

So, yes I think God hears the prayers of the Jewish people. However John 8 is clear to me. Calling His name means you must know that Jesus is the Christ! God will destroy all who do not do so. Claiming a blood line is clearly defeated in John 8.

Our Father in Heaven is Jesus. Hallowed be Your name means you understand more than the history of God's people.


In this current age our job is not to search scripture to find many ways to God, but it's to proclaim the good news of Christ. The idea that God hears every attempt to come to His Throne is totally against the great commission, and it's part of an "order of things", that will pass away.

There are covenants that God will not break, but as gentiles we can't make up rules for proclaiming Jesus as Christ and Savior. We preach that Jesus is God, to the Jews as well as the Muslim.

Mike

So do you believe that Jewish people and Muslims cannot go to heaven?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[eldermike]

So do you believe that Jewish people and Muslims cannot go to heaven?

If we preach Jesus and they recieve it, yes.

 

[jcright]

This is some serious stuff. I cannot believe that this is happening. If the muslims are granted the right to play the loudspeaker, its going to get REALLY BAD.
Thoughts????????
GEL

It's amazing how many posts accumulate in such a short time. Haven't read them all, but I did want to add my $.02 worth.

I, just as Cright, am a hop, skip and a jump away from hamtramack. Even if I weren't, this would still be WRONG! I was floored when I first heard about this. It's amazing that God can't be mentioned in school (especially by a Christian) but it can be broadcasted on a loud speaker??? It is my opinion that this is another step towards removing rights of Christians. If the Christian community did this, it would be ALL over the news media, there would be a HUGE uproar...even if it were a predominantly Christian community. Another thing that I find very interesting is that we are STILL in the Middle East, our troops dying because of the fanatical muslims...and yet we permit their ways here in the US.

My friends, the seed has been planted, the weed is growing...a weed that has a fanatical side for killing the "infidels"! We should be doing something about this before it spreads out of control...first it will be our rights, eventually it'll be our lives.

 

[eightfoot514]

Some of the fundamentalist Muslims may be a threat to us, but just make sure not to confuse them with the majority of Islam that is peaceful and respectful towards others.

 

[eldermike]

Some of the fundamentalist Muslims may be a threat to us, but just make sure not to confuse them with the majority of Islam that is peaceful and respectful towards others.

I have an issue with using the word fundamentalists in a negative way, it's been taught to us by the world. It fails logic. If the fundamentals of Islam are peaceful. then fundamentalists Muslims would be peaceful. That passes logic.

 

[BT]

We are not using LOUD Speakers to spread the Gospel of Christ around. I am sure there would be just as much of an uproar if a church did on a loud speaker say...........
Jesus is Lord, Jesus is Lord. Come to church. Come to salvation.

I think words mean everything regarless of language. The muslims are slowly gaining strength here in the USA and it scares me.
GEL

We just had some missionaries and evangelists in our church and this was the fact that they brought, "The fasting growing religion in the USA and CANADA, is Islam."

GEL is right about that. And I hope this concerns the rest of us as well...

 

[Crazy Liz]

We just had some missionaries and evangelists in our church and this was the fact that they brought, "The fasting growing religion in the USA and CANADA, is Islam."

GEL is right about that. And I hope this concerns the rest of us as well...

When you read demographics about which religions are "growing," it is important to ask the next question, "How is it growing?" Some religions are fast-growing because their members have high birth rates, although they don't evangelize. The Amish would be an example of this. Even though half their children leave the faith and they don't evangelize (although they may accept converts that come to them) they have such a high birthrate they have difficulty maintaining their agrarian way of life. There isn't enough land for more young men to become farmers, so they have to enter other occupations, and this is causing problems for Amish traditions.

Islam and Hinduism are both growing in the US due mainly to immigration. Yes, there have been a few conversions, but they make up only a very small part of the demographic growth rate.

 

[jcright]

Some of the fundamentalist Muslims may be a threat to us, but just make sure not to confuse them with the majority of Islam that is peaceful and respectful towards others.

Does any one here know what the Koran (sp?) actually says? I've never read it (althoguh I've been wondering if I should for the sake of talking to Muslims) but it seems to me to be a bit odd that there are two groups...one doesn't believe in killing but the other does. I'd be very interested to know what their bible actually claims. If says that everyone else should be elminated (who don't believe in allah), then I think that's something the others should know!...perhaps they would convert to Christianity if they knew. If it's not, then why aren't they supporting Bush more in the Middle East??? I heard on the radio (Christian Radio...didn't try to validate their information at this point) where there is a ridiculous small percent that support Bush. If there was a Chrisitan denomination that was killing people, then I think I would want our governemnt to take action!

 

[BT]

Does any one here know what the Koran (sp?) actually says?

You can spell it "Koran" but it is actually "Quaran"... you can find info on the web using either spelling (I think).

 

[Crazy Liz]

Does any one here know what the Koran (sp?) actually says? I've never read it (althoguh I've been wondering if I should for the sake of talking to Muslims) but it seems to me to be a bit odd that there are two groups...one doesn't believe in killing but the other does. I'd be very interested to know what their bible actually claims. If says that everyone else should be elminated (who don't believe in allah), then I think that's something the others should know!...perhaps they would convert to Christianity if they knew. If it's not, then why aren't they supporting Bush more in the Middle East??? I heard on the radio (Christian Radio...didn't try to validate their information at this point) where there is a ridiculous small percent that support Bush. If there was a Chrisitan denomination that was killing people, then I think I would want our governemnt to take action!

I think you need to understand before you undertake this research that there is as much variety in interpretation of the Quran by Muslims as there is in interpretation of the Bible by Christians. There also are verses in the Quran that seem to promote violence against other religions and others that promote tolerance, at least for Christians and Jews.

Think about someone simply picking up a Bible and reading it without any background. If they started at the front of the book, they would soon be reading about the Canaanite genocide, and might conclude that Christianity is a violent religion, or that the Bible is full of contradictions because the Sermon on the Mount says something quite different about treatment of enemies.

I don't want to discourage your research in any way. Just try to approach it the way you would hope a Muslim would approach the Bible.

 

[Gold Dragon]

You can spell it "Koran" but it is actually "Quaran"... you can find info on the web using either spelling (I think).

It is actually Qur'an.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

Does the Qur’an Teach Violence?

Q: Does Islam really teach peace? I am a Christian and I do not hate Muslims, but I read in the Qur’an verses like, “And slay them wherever ye catch them..” (2:191) and “…But if they turn away, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” (4:89). How can a peaceful religion teach these things? How do you explain these verses. These quotations from your Holy Book do really make us very uneasy with your faith. I would appreciate your reply.

http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/01032003.html

 

[Crazy Liz]

Thanks for posting that last link, GD. It makes the same point I made, but from a Muslim perspective.

 

[jcright]

I think you need to understand before you undertake this research that there is as much variety in interpretation of the Quran by Muslims as there is in interpretation of the Bible by Christians. There also are verses in the Quran that seem to promote violence against other religions and others that promote tolerance, at least for Christians and Jews.

Think about someone simply picking up a Bible and reading it without any background. If they started at the front of the book, they would soon be reading about the Canaanite genocide, and might conclude that Christianity is a violent religion, or that the Bible is full of contradictions because the Sermon on the Mount says something quite different about treatment of enemies.

I don't want to discourage your research in any way. Just try to approach it the way you would hope a Muslim would approach the Bible.

Thanks for the advice. I would hope that I would take the same tactic with the Qu'ran as I do the bible. There is a book, that I think is excellent, written by Gordon Fee "How to read the bible for all it's worth". I would hope that I could apply that knowledge to the Qu'ran as I would God's Word. As far as I'm concerned, there is only one truth and for the Qu'ran the question would be kill or tolerate? Just my opinion, but I think that is more so severe than the quarrels that the Christian denominations have in interpretation.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Fee is an excellent writer on exegetical methods and hermeneutics!

BTW, did you read GD's last link?

http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/01032003.html