This is serious......READ!!!!!!!

[seebs]

In a way, we have a Nicene creed issue here. If a Christian allows God to have only one person, they do not actually hold the creed at all.

Indeed.

If leaving out "The Son" = the same God, is that not a challenge to the Nicene creed?

No. It would be a challenge to the creed to hold that such a belief is true. But the question here is whether we are talking about different entities, or differences of opinion about the nature of a single entity.

For it to be different entities, you would need to be able to tell me which creator of all things these people are talking about who isn't the one we follow.

Making false claims about God doesn't mean you're talking about a different entity; it means you're mistaken about the nature of the same entity.

So; to say that "a god" with some historical basis, but with another name, one person, Is the same God as the God described in the creed, totally denies the Nicene creed, not to mention, the actually authorship of the bible itself.

But no one's saying that. What they're saying is that people may have all sorts of false beliefs about the one true God, but still be unambiguously denoting that God. Who else could they mean? Did anyone else create the world? Not that I'm aware of.

In other words...

If I talk about "eldermike, the CF poster", I'm talking about you. If I say "eldermike is 39 years old", then I'm obviously wrong, but I'm still talking about you. If I say "eldermike is an Anglican", I'm obviously wrong, but I'm still talking about you. The identification I do provide ("the poster at CF called eldermike") is unambiguous. There's no question of whom I'm talking about.

If I talk about "the God who created everything and made a covenant with Abraham", there is only one God I can possibly be talking about, no matter how confused I am about that God's nature.

 

[seebs]

I think you are trying to argue a different point. Yes there is only one God but that has nothing to do with the worship of a god. If you call God, God, the He's not going to answer you, Jesus clearly said that I am the Way, the Truth, The Life, no one comes to the Father (The one God) except through Me. There is no path to worship, speaking to, or knowing God other than through Jesus. In Jesus name we can go to the Throne of Grace.

Well, that's a big shock, because I always thought I was praying to God when I said "Our Father, who art in Heaven".

I call Him "God" all the time, and my prayers get answered just fine. It is through Jesus that we have this relationship, but the relationship is there, and He'll answer to just about anything. I know people who start out prayers "Hey, big guy!". He knows who He is, and He knows whom you're trying to talk to.

 

[SumTinWong]

This really scares me that christians actually think we do have the same GOD as them!
GEL

If I am not mistaken George Bush said they were the same God...

 

[eightfoot514]

I think you are trying to argue a different point. Yes there is only one God but that has nothing to do with the worship of a god. If you call God, God, the He's not going to answer you, Jesus clearly said that I am the Way, the Truth, The Life, no one comes to the Father (The one God) except through Me. There is no path to worship, speaking to, or knowing God other than through Jesus. In Jesus name we can go to the Throne of Grace.

So, do you believe the Jewish people's prayers are never answered?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Say, "We believe in God, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."
--Quran_2:136, also 3:84

I am glad you posted this up Crazy Liz. This is my whole point. See there where it says Ismail? He was NEVER a prophet and if you notice he is infront of Issac. I never said they did not reconized Issac as a prophet. They reconize Jesus as a prophet.
Please take a look at Quan 2:127
Issac is not mentioned. They are stating that Ishmel got the blessings from the Lord, not Issac. This whole portion is false doctrine. If you read further it states
They say "accept the Jewish or Christian faith and you shall be rightley guided.
Say: By No means! We believe in the faith of Abraham, the upright one. He was no idolater.

Why might I ask do they think we are idolaters? Why do they not accept the Christian faith or the Jewish faith (which is the closest match) Because the Jews and the Christians do NOT accept Ishmel in the line of David.

They worship the God of Abraham.........and Ishmel. In our faith, that is impossible to worship that god. It is a false god.
GEL

 

[Iollain]

Is this loudspeaker prayer supposed to take place in America? As in USA? Very weird. If it is a traditional thing for them, it would not include a loudspeaker cause loudspeakers are a modern invention. If that was were i lived i would get a loudspeaker and play Ozzy music next door to them.

 

[seebs]

This whole portion is false doctrine.

So? Most Christians (probably all) believe at least some false doctrine.

They worship the God of Abraham.........and Ishmel. In our faith, that is impossible to worship that god. It is a false god.

This is still completely nonsensical.

There is only one God. There is only one Creator. There is no way to pick the wrong Creator of All Things. The God we worship spoke to Abraham. They worship the God who spoke to Abraham. There's no way for them to be talking to anyone else, even if there were anyone else for them to be talking to.

You keep pointing out their false beliefs about this God, as though that changes anything. It doesn't. People believe false things about each other all the time; they're still the same people.

 

[eightfoot514]

You keep pointing out their false beliefs about this God, as though that changes anything. It doesn't. People believe false things about each other all the time; they're still the same people.

Sure, I may think that I am the best-looking graduate of '04. If somehow that's not the case, I'm still talking about myself, not someone else.

 

[seebs]

To give a more interesting example, there was a poster called VOW in the Catholic forums a while back. VOW is a woman, and I believe she's around 50 years old. For a long time, I mistakenly believed that VOW was a man in his 20s. Does that mean that I was sending PMs to "a false VOW"? Did my PMs actually get read by someone else?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

To give a more interesting example, there was a poster called VOW in the Catholic forums a while back. VOW is a woman, and I believe she's around 50 years old. For a long time, I mistakenly believed that VOW was a man in his 20s. Does that mean that I was sending PMs to "a false VOW"? Did my PMs actually get read by someone else?

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God is denying these people, even though they called Him by name. Why did He deny them? You could say VOW VOW VOW and PM her all you want, but if she does not know you, she will not PM you back. This is a hard exapmle to use seebs. Are you saying that God hears and answers the prayers of Muslims just because they believe part of the bible?

Eldermike,
I thought about your posts today in church while listening to the sermon. I understand your point now. What you are saying is that before Jews and Muslims will ever be able to reconcile with each other, they have to reconcile with God first and they HAVE to do that though Jesus Christ. Is that the point you were trying to make, or am I missing something?
GEL

 

[seebs]

God is denying these people, even though they called Him by name. Why did He deny them?

A good question. If you read Matthew 25, you will get a surprising answer.

You could say VOW VOW VOW and PM her all you want, but if she does not know you, she will not PM you back.

And this has what to do with anything? She's still a real poster. If I send PMs, she gets them, no matter what misconceptions I may have about her. Further, she responds, not because she knows me, but because she got a PM. I respond to just about everyone who sends me messages, whether or not I know them, and whether or not they have misconceptions about me. Would God do any less?

This is a hard exapmle to use seebs. Are you saying that God hears and answers the prayers of Muslims just because they believe part of the bible?

I'm expressing no opinion at all on whether they are answered, but it seems pretty obvious that God hears every prayer there is. He's omniscient, remember?

But... It doesn't matter whether or not they have a good relationship with God, or understand him, or whether He answers their prayers. They are calling to the one and only God there is. There is no other God for them to be praying to, and by identifying Him as the creator of all things, and the God who spoke to Abraham, they are clearly identifying the God we are talking about.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

"Allah" is a pre-Islamic name (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643; Encyclopedia of Religion, I:117). The moon god Allah was already being worshipped even before Muhammad was born (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, I:41, Anthony Mercatante, New York, The Facts on File, 1983). Muslim scholars admit that Muhammad's family tribe was devoted to the moon god. Islamic apologists admit that worship of the moon god was prevalent in Muhammad's seventh-century Arabia. Even the islam.org Website admits that worship of the moon god was dominant in Muhammad's day and locale. The symbol of this moon god was the crescent moon. Archaeologists have found this crescent moon symbol on ancient artifacts of Arabic worship. Islam adopted the crescent moon as its religious symbol. Allah, was represented by a black stone in the Kaaba and was already being worshipped before Muhammad was born. Allah is the moon god. That is why at mosques around the world, one will see a crescent moon on the top spire. That is why Shriners, who take an oath to Allah, have the crescent moon on their fez hats. That is why the crescent moon is on the flags of various Islamic nations (Tunisa, Algeria, East Turkestan, Turkey, Pakistan, etc). That is why the Muslim Ramadan fast is regulated by the appearance of the crescent moon. Some Muslims have pondered why the crescent moon symbol adorns the top of mosques, Islamic flags, etc., but because of Satanic blindness, they cannot see the obvious. They cannot see what is before their eyes.

Muslim writer, Sayed Razwy says in his book, The State of Religion in Pre-Islamic Arabia, "Idol-worshippers or polytheists: Most of the Arabs were idolaters. They worshipped numerous idols and each tribe had its own idol or idols and fetishes. They had turned the Kaaba in Makkah, which according to tradition, had been built by the Prophet Abraham and his son, Ismael, and was dedicated by them to the service of One God, into a heathen pantheon housing 360 idols of stone and wood." (A Restatement of The History of Islam & Muslims, Sayed A. A. Razwy, Muslim, The State of Religion in Pre-Islamic Arabia, p19-20 1997) The three principal idols of Pagan Arab idolatry were the goddesses Lat, 'Uzza, and Manat. Opinions differ as to their exact forms : one version is that Lat was in human shape, 'Uzza had its origin in a sacred tree, and Manat in a white stone. They all represented God in female form." (The holy Qur’an, text, translation and commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. 1872-1952, First published in 1938, 1973 ed., p. 1445, footnote 5095, commenting on 53:19)

"had put an idol called Habal on the roof of the Kaba. This was one of the chief deities of the Quraish before Islam. It is said that there were altogether three hundred and sixty idols in and about the Kaba and that each tribes had its own deity (Muhammad The Holy Prophet, Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar (Pakistan), p. 18-19.)

The symbols, the temples, the rituals of modern Islam were practiced by polytheists before Muhammad was born. Islam is Repackaged Polytheism. "Polytheism with a monotheistic veil". This cannot be said about either Judaism or Christianity.

The jews and the Christians share ONE God, they share one faith in that God. The only differance between the Jews and the Christians is Christ. We cannot say the same about the Muslims. They believe in a pagan god.

GEL

 

[Iollain]

Exodus 12:12
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Exodus 23:24
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

Judges 10:6
And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon, and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him.

1 Kings 11:8
And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods

There are other gods, the god of Islam is not the God of the Son of God, or they would follow Him. Islam fights against the Jews, and they also preach another Jesus.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I am glad you posted this up Crazy Liz. This is my whole point. See there where it says Ismail? He was NEVER a prophet and if you notice he is infront of Issac. I never said they did not reconized Issac as a prophet. They reconize Jesus as a prophet.
Please take a look at Quan 2:127
Issac is not mentioned. They are stating that Ishmel got the blessings from the Lord, not Issac. This whole portion is false doctrine. If you read further it states
They say "accept the Jewish or Christian faith and you shall be rightley guided.
Say: By No means! We believe in the faith of Abraham, the upright one. He was no idolater.

Why might I ask do they think we are idolaters? Why do they not accept the Christian faith or the Jewish faith (which is the closest match) Because the Jews and the Christians do NOT accept Ishmel in the line of David.

They worship the God of Abraham.........and Ishmel. In our faith, that is impossible to worship that god. It is a false god.
GEL

GEL, I am not trying to say anything about Islam except that your statement about the Koran is false. You said

NOT according to the Islamic Religion. According to the Koran, the God of Abraham is not the God of Issac.

I simply gave a quotation from the Koran that said the opposite - that the God of Abraham is also the God of Isaac.

I'm not saying the Quran is true. I am only saying you made a false misrepresentation of what the Quran says.

There is no sense in lying about other faiths. We don't need to spread disinformation about Islam to state that our faith is true and theirs is false. We hurt our own credibility when we spread false statements about other faiths. We hurt our own testimony. If we don't clean up our act, they can rightly say Christians are liars.

Now, I'm not accusing you of telling deliberate lies. I assume you heard this from someone else who also didn't know what he or she was talking about. My single point is to correct this lie before it is spread any further.

 

[seebs]

The symbols, the temples, the rituals of modern Islam were practiced by polytheists before Muhammad was born. Islam is Repackaged Polytheism. "Polytheism with a monotheistic veil". This cannot be said about either Judaism or Christianity.

It is said about Christianity quite regularly by some Jews.

But... When Paul preached to the people of "the unknown god", he wasn't preaching "polytheism with a monotheistic veil". He was preaching monotheism.

What they may have believed earlier doesn't matter. They believe in the One God, Creator of All Things.

The jews and the Christians share ONE God, they share one faith in that God. The only differance between the Jews and the Christians is Christ. We cannot say the same about the Muslims. They believe in a pagan god.

A pagan god who, apparently, created all things, spoke to Abraham, created us in His image, and opposes "Satan".

That's a pretty hard sell. I've never heard of any pagans worshipping any such god.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Seebs,
We are on page 8 and we still do not agree. I am willing to just accept the fact that you and I cannot agree on the Islamic religion.

Crazy Liz,
You cannot take one single verse out of the Koran and distort it to what you want it to read. You must read the entire context of what it is saying. One can easliey take a quote out of the bible to prove the Jesus is not GOD or is a God. You can make it say whatever you want with one quote.
What you posted does not mean that they have the same GOD as us and certainly did not prove your point. They placed Ishmael before Issac. That is NOT the same God as the God of Issac in the bible.
I am not spreading lies or false information about the islamic religion. I think I did not make my point clear in that statement that you cut and pasted out of this debate. My point is that the Koran elevates Ishmael's status making Ishmael above Issac.

We gave him Isaac and Jacob and guided both as We had guided Noah before them. Among his descendents were David and Solomon, Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron (thus do we reward the righteous); Zacharias and John, Jesus and Elias (all were upright men); and Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot. All these We exalted above the nations as We exalted some of their fathers, their children, and their brothers. We chose them and guided them to a straight path...On those men We bestowed the Scriptures, wisdom, and prophethood. (p. 100, 6:80, 3rd Para. - 6:91, 1st Para.)

In the quote above, Ishmael is listed among those God bestowed the scriptures, wisdom, and prophethood upon. Along with the others on the list, Ishmael is said to have been "chosen" by God and "exalted above the nations." Such a statement clearly elevates Ishmael and his descendants to a similar status as Isaac and the Jews, whom Deuteronomy refers to as a "chosen" and "special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

Below is another quote taken from the Koran.

Are they seeking a religion other than God's, when every soul in the heaven's and the earth has submitted to Him willingly or by compulsion? To Him shall they return. Say: 'We believe in God and what is revealed to us; in that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, to Isaac and Jacob and the tribes; and in that which their Lord gave Moses and Jesus and the prophets. We discriminate against none of them. Too Him we have surrendered ourselves.' He that chooses a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will surely be among the losers. (p. 50, 3:83, 1st Para. - 3rd Para.)

Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers. (p. 85, 5:51, 1st Para.)

The Koran denies the unique position of the Jews as God's Chosen People, uniquely chosen from apart from all other nations and descended from Isaac alone.!!
GEL

 

[Crazy Liz]

Crazy Liz,
You cannot take one single verse out of the Koran and distort it to what you want it to read. You must read the entire context of what it is saying. One can easliey take a quote out of the bible to prove the Jesus is not GOD or is a God. You can make it say whatever you want with one quote.
What you posted does not mean that they have the same GOD as us and certainly did not prove your point. They placed Ishmael before Issac. That is NOT the same God as the God of Issac in the bible.

Yes, they placed Ishamael above Isaac, but they say the God of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the patriarchs, Moses and Jesus. You said the Koran said the God of Isaac is not the same God as the God of Abraham. This says these all worshipped the same God.

You therefore misrepresented the Koran.

The fact that the Bible also says these men all worshipped the same God is not the point I was trying to make, although it would be a true statement.

I am not spreading lies or false information about the islamic religion. I think I did not make my point clear in that statement that you cut and pasted out of this debate. My point is that the Koran elevates Ishmael's status making Ishmael above Issac.

I agree Islam does this. But your point did not have to do with which human had priority, but with whether the Koran claims Abraham and Isaac worshipped different gods. This is not a true statement. If you will stop making this statement, I will be satisfied.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Look, the JEWS accept the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. The JEWS believe in OUR God, they just reject the Messiah.
The muslims belive in a completley differant God. They are NOT the same god. The muslims REJECT the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and only accept the God of Abraham. The twist in the religions comes in when they reject issac and jacob. Instead they replace ISHMEL for issac. HUGE differance. Not the same GOD!
GEL.

This is a quote from the post before the one you pasted. I should have stated my point in this post. I can see where one could get confused.

I agree Islam does this. But your point did not have to do with which human had priority, but with whether the Koran claims Abraham and Isaac worshipped different gods. This is not a true statement. If you will stop making this statement, I will be satisfied.

My point was suppose to be which human had prioroty, I just did not explain it well. My point is that since they elevate Ishmael, they are taking away the right the Jews have as the children of God. There fore, thier god, is not our God because Our GOD is the GOD of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Ishmael was given a blessing, but not the right to a tribe.
GEL

 

[seebs]

My point was suppose to be which human had prioroty, I just did not explain it well. My point is that since they elevate Ishmael, they are taking away the right the Jews have as the children of God. There fore, thier god, is not our God because Our GOD is the GOD of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Ishmael was given a blessing, but not the right to a tribe.

So, because they have a false belief about something God did, they're talking about a totally different entity? Come on. Lots of people have false beliefs about what God did or didn't do, but that doesn't mean they're talking about a different God.

 

[BT]

So, because they have a false belief about something God did, they're talking about a totally different entity? Come on. Lots of people have false beliefs about what God did or didn't do, but that doesn't mean they're talking about a different God.

seebs have you read the Narnia series by C.S. Lewis?