This is possible according to predestination?
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Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose individuals. In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.
This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:
Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….
Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…
Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….
Writing as a Jew to Gentile believers, Paul used the word "we" to mean the Jews, he being one of them. He used the word "you Gentiles" because Gentile Christians were the audience. Notice he used the word '"BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles"; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.
Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.
We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.
In letter of Romans , Paul was saying that God, as the potter, has the right to offer redemption to the Gentiles. He was not referring to individual redemption. In Romans, Paul explained that the Jews had a great lineage as descendants of Abraham and Jacob, and they used to be God's people exclusively while the Gentiles were not. But now, things have changed and Gentiles had access to God too, through Christ.
In letter of Romans , Paul was saying that God, as the potter, has the right to offer redemption to the Gentiles. He was not referring to individual redemption. In Romans, Paul explained that the Jews had a great lineage as descendants of Abraham and Jacob, and they used to be God's people exclusively while the Gentiles were not. But now, things have changed and Gentiles had access to God too, through Christ.
Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.
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If that was true, Jesus would not have told people to follow him, come to him, believe in him etc.
Joshua told the people "CHOOSE this day who you will serve". If we could't decide, or choose, to follow Jesus, there'd be no point in proclaiming the Gospel. Jesus might as well have said, "go into the world and live your life as you like. Any who are predestined to be saved will be saved, whatever you do; anyone who has already been chosen for hell, you needn't bother with."
No.
Do you think that God is able to perform a miracle so that you think you believe, and then after death will tell you that he deceived you deliberately and you're going to hell?
Do you think that God, who is light with no darkness in him, 1 John 1:5, truth, John 14:6, love, 1 John 4:8 and perfect, Matthew 5:48, would do that to you - his creation and someone who is made in his image, Genesis 1:26-27?
That's why it's better to look at God and who he has revealed himself to be - in Scripture, but especially in Jesus.
John wrote his first letter so that people might KNOW. Paul says that we have assurance by the Spirit.
If someone is playing with your mind, causing you to doubt God, his word and his character, do you think that is likely to be God himself - or possibly the devil who is a liar and a murderer, John 8:44, and the bad shepherd who does not care for the sheep, John 10?
God always chooses people that no one else expects.
Abraham was 100 and not able to have children.
Moses was an asylum seeking octogenerian.
David was a young shepherd boy.
Mary was an unmarried woman (maybe even a teenager.)
Peter, John etc were fishermen.
Paul was a Pharisee who hated and murdered Christians.
In my experience, if someone thinks "God is bound to choose ME - he'd be lucky to have me", it is likely they are not humble, submitting to God and may not hear his voice.
It is those who are weak and know their need of him who are able to hear, and respond to, God.
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... or the free will we have in heaven is the same kind of compatibilist free will that we have now, but purified.
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JoeP222w
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No. If you are predestined to Heaven, that is being the elect of God, that is the only way you will truly have faith in Jesus Christ. There is no one, not one single person who is in Hell who trusted and believed in Jesus Christ. They are in Hell because they are rebel sinners and God poured out His justice on them.
An unregenerate person would have no concern for their faith in Jesus Christ. If you are struggling with your faith, it is a fair indicator that God is working on your heart by His grace.
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ColoRaydo
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No one is accidentally saved nor is anyone accidentally unsaved if they have accepted the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.
Are some people’s doctrines off the mark? Absolutely! Probably everyone is off somewhere - that’s why salvation through works won’t work.
Do some people think they are going to a heaven because they love some god? Yes, but without accepting Jesus’ atonement they are fooling themselves, unfortunately.
I believe predestination is a concept we humans can’t fully grasp. Yes, the Bible indicates that God chose us but also says what we must believe to be saved.
You mentioned good people who are not saved. There are undoubtedly atheists who are better citizens and humanitarians than I am, but no matter how good they (or I) am it’s not good enough. God’s holiness and omnipotence are so vast, anything we do to measure up to his standard is futile. Again, salvation through works won’t work.
So, whether you were prededestined and therefore chose Christ or you chose Christ and are therefore predestined, it doesn’t really matter. I believe in “once saved always saved” if one continues to believe in Jesus’ redemption - not if one continues to do everything right. As to the argument that if you accepted Christ’s salvation then reject it, you were never saved in the first place that could speak to the concept of predestination. Regardless, just don’t reject Jesus. That’s pretty easy!
Lastly, if you are doubting your salvation because you don’t know whether or not you were chosen or whether or not you are good enough, that doubt is simply a straight up lie from the enemy.
Are some people’s doctrines off the mark? Absolutely! Probably everyone is off somewhere - that’s why salvation through works won’t work.
Do some people think they are going to a heaven because they love some god? Yes, but without accepting Jesus’ atonement they are fooling themselves, unfortunately.
I believe predestination is a concept we humans can’t fully grasp. Yes, the Bible indicates that God chose us but also says what we must believe to be saved.
You mentioned good people who are not saved. There are undoubtedly atheists who are better citizens and humanitarians than I am, but no matter how good they (or I) am it’s not good enough. God’s holiness and omnipotence are so vast, anything we do to measure up to his standard is futile. Again, salvation through works won’t work.
So, whether you were prededestined and therefore chose Christ or you chose Christ and are therefore predestined, it doesn’t really matter. I believe in “once saved always saved” if one continues to believe in Jesus’ redemption - not if one continues to do everything right. As to the argument that if you accepted Christ’s salvation then reject it, you were never saved in the first place that could speak to the concept of predestination. Regardless, just don’t reject Jesus. That’s pretty easy!
Lastly, if you are doubting your salvation because you don’t know whether or not you were chosen or whether or not you are good enough, that doubt is simply a straight up lie from the enemy.
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No, when God chose people for salvation he chose EVERYONE whom he foreknew would have lifelong faith in his Son.
God chose you probably for the same reason he chose me. For one, he foreknew that we would come to Christ for salvation but he also probably took pity on us for our lives. Like Jesus says in Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in Spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven". I mean, I grew up poor too. I'm still very poor. But, I get by. I've committed many sins in my life and I deserve hellfire for it all. Especially when some of the sins that I committed were very horrible in nature. I have schizo-affective disorder (Which is a mental illness that makes me both bipolar and schizophrenic at the same time), not to mention I've been depressed almost all my life. I was picked on at school because I am uglier than most people and because I've been obese almost all of my life. So yeah... God took pity on me when he chose me.
Predestination isn't scary when you think about it in it's true form. In which, God chose every single person who could ever possibly come to Jesus Christ for salvation. So, essentially God saved every single person who could ever possibly be saved. Plus, perhaps Israel because of Romans 11:26. I still haven't found the correct interpretation for that verse.
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ICONO'CLAST
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It is clear you do not understand the effects of the fall of man in Adam,so you cannot really understand what salvation is. Learn what really happened at the fall first.
You suggest you know families that love God but reject Jesus???
Good people you suggest.The word of God says differently.
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aiki
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The scary thing about predestination as the Calvinist understands it is that God has made most people to be cast into hell. He's made only a comparatively few for heaven. And those who are made for hell have no choice whatever in their eternal destination. They were made to be destroyed. Nice, eh?
But I would inform you that the Calvinist is not the only one with a perspective on predestination. Both the Molinist or the Traditionalist have, I think, better views on God's foreknowledge and His election of the saints. Many Calvinists make a basic error in modal logic when they talk about predestination in the way they do, asserting that because God foreknows what will happen it must then necessarily occur. But God foreknowing what will happen means only that it will happen, not that it must necessarily happen. For a thing to happen necessarily it must be that there was no possibility whatever that it could not have happened. This isn't the case with God and His predestining people to adoption into His family. His predestination is based on His foreknowledge of what we will do. If we choose X, God knows we will choose X; if we choose Y, God knows we will choose Y. And knowing our choices ahead of time, God predestines us according to what He knows we will choose in regards to the Gospel. Being free agents, we could have chosen X over Y, or vice versa, and this means that God does not necessarily predestine us to salvation or not.
This is a situation rather different from what the Calvinist describes where God, entirely independently of the exercise of our free will, pre-determines what we will do. On Calvinism, our choices don't come into what God ordains. In fact, in the Calvinist view, there is no human free agency at all (though, they try to soften this fact by resorting to compatibilism); God meticulously decrees all that will happen. The rapist who rapes is God's decree; the murderer who murders is decreed by God to do so; the child sacrifices of the OT were done by God's divine decree. I don't think this handles Scripture well at all, and this perspective on God's sovereignty and Man's free agency leads to serious logical tangles that the Calvinist tries to escape by way of the convenient route of God's inscrutability.
Anyway, I would urge you to look elsewhere for your understanding of predestination and election. Kenneth Keathley's book "Salvation and Sovereignty" is a great place to start, or you can check out the Traditionalist perspective at www.soteriology101.com
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Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose individuals. In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.
This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:
Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….
Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…
Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….
Writing as a Jew to Gentile believers, Paul used the word "we" to mean the Jews, je being one of them. He used the word "you Gentiles" because Gentile Christians aware the audience. Notice he used the word '"BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles"; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.
Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.
We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.
In letter of Romans , Paul was saying that God, as the potter, has the right to offer redemption to the Gentiles. He was not referring to individual redemption. In Romans, Paul explained that the Jews had a great lineage as descendants of Abraham and Jacob, and they used to be God's people exclusively while the Gentiles were not. But now, things have changed and Gentiles had access to God too, through Christ.
In letter of Romans , Paul was saying that God, as the potter, has the right to offer redemption to the Gentiles. He was not referring to individual redemption. In Romans, Paul explained that the Jews had a great lineage as descendants of Abraham and Jacob, and they used to be God's people exclusively while the Gentiles were not. But now, things have changed and Gentiles had access to God too, through Christ.
Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.
Good Day, roman 2819
You have got a very interesting view of the text... so lets look at some context. I think you are assume things that are missing from the text and explicitly denied by the text grammatically
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Predestined – Defined as a verb
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4253 and G3724
Citing in TDNT: 5:456, 728
I have bolded some of the pronouns in this passage, let play follow the pronouns.
Who/what is the object noun affected by the verb (predetermine) in this passage?
You seem to suggest the pronouns here refer to Jews and Gentiles which are all singular people.
Which noun in the passage clearly identifies “Jews and Gentiles” in the text, which constitutes your assumed pronoun (us, we, you, your) usage?
I do not deny he is speaking to Jews and Gentiles....
In Him
Bill
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Good Day, Aiki
You said-
"The scary thing about predestination as the Calvinist understands it is that God has made most people to be cast into hell. He's made only a comparatively few for heaven. And those who are made for hell have no choice whatever in their eternal destination. They were made to be destroyed. Nice, eh?"
Do you have a primary historical source of any body that said such a thing??
Be sure of this one thing every one whom God adopts will indeed be there, like the sands of the sea.
In Him,
Bill
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The fall is because Adam and Eve disobeyed God, now we are all damned with them. I always knew this.
Salvation is being saved, having eternal life. We are saved because of faith, in Jesus Christ dying for our sins. He was buried and rose.
And by good people, I'm talking about people who seeked out God and somehow they end up becoming a sihk or something, and end up doing good for their lives. How does that even happen? I have no idea, I know I am a bigger sinner than them however.
Do I think that they will be going to heaven because they are good people? No I never claimed that.
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StillGods
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after spending time in a calvinist church sitting under calvinist teaching, researching it because i found it just weird so wanted to understand more about these strange beliefs i came to that conclusion.
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aiki
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Do I need a primary historical source? I don't recall saying anything about historical Calvinists. Today's Calvinists have and do say the things I described. You can find several such instances discussed at www.soteriology101.com
I am sure that those God has elected to salvation are eternally secure in His hand. But I don't need to be a Calvinist to be certain of this.
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Good Day,
I guess not...and you did not, being reformed for years and well read on the subject.
I am very interested in:
The scary thing about predestination as the Calvinist understands it is that God has made most people to be cast into hell.
I am looking for your source of that understanding specifically by any confessional Calvinist.
In Him,
Bill
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