This is possible according to predestination?

[JohnB445]

The scary thing about predestination is that we have no control whether we go to heaven or hell. We do understand that grace is a free unmerited gift, that we don't deserve.

I always wondered, can one really truly have faith in Jesus Christ yet not be saved because he was not predestined to heaven? I've been thinking about this myself, what if I am deluded and I don't actually have faith even though I believe, and that my regeneration was either a psychological reaction instead of a miracle or that God is allowing familiar spirits to play tricks on me making me think I have the Holy Spirit when I don't.

But that seems like dangerous thinking. Ever since I looked into predestination it has always caused some fear, as in making me think I am fooling myself and even though I have faith and even walk in my faith I have to wait or wonder when God is going to actually save me or if he will save me.

The only things I have as evidence is I believe in God, I believe that Jesus is God that he died for my sins, and that he raised from the dead. I believe the Bible is his word. I have had a miracle happen the moment I believed such as experiencing something mysterious and my life changing rapidly overnight, and my ongoing sanctification, the feeling a presence during communion, and my baptism.

But how do I know if I actually believe and I'm not just saying that and doing everything out of obedience in vain or that the miracles and the feeling of a presence was just a psychological thing I triggered? Or maybe I am just overcomplicating myself. I get worried at times because eternity is a long time without God.

Maybe I am misinterpreting the predestination view and thinking more of the hyper-Calvinist view instead?

The way I lived my life in the past, and the history with the struggles of my family I would never think God would choose me out of all people. I have friends from different religions that are raised in families and have a love for God, but they do not know Jesus Christ. They seem more worthy to be saved rather than me, and they reject the gospel anyways.

Why God would choose me? A poor man from a family with a rough history who hasn't seeked God, I don't know. While I have friends from successful families, who have a love for God but none of them know Jesus Christ and reject him. They are good people, but its sad to see they reject Jesus.

I understand and know having a relationship with God, and having eternal life is a priceless thing. Nothing in the world can compare. But I wonder what if my faith is not real and I am predestined to hell anyways?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Deuteronomy 29:29

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

The scary thing about predestination is that we have no control whether we go to heaven or hell. We do understand that grace is a free unmerited gift, that we don't deserve.

I always wondered, can one really truly have faith in Jesus Christ yet not be saved because he was not predestined to heaven? I've been thinking about this myself, what if I am deluded and I don't actually have faith even though I believe, and that my regeneration was either a psychological reaction instead of a miracle or that God is allowing familiar spirits to play tricks on me making me think I have the Holy Spirit when I don't.

But that seems like dangerous thinking. Ever since I looked into predestination it has always caused some fear, as in making me think I am fooling myself and even though I have faith and even walk in my faith I have to wait or wonder when God is going to actually save me or if he will save me.

The only things I have as evidence is I believe in God, I believe that Jesus is God that he died for my sins, and that he raised from the dead. I believe the Bible is his word. I have had a miracle happen the moment I believed such as experiencing something mysterious and my life changing rapidly overnight, and my ongoing sanctification, the feeling a presence during communion, and my baptism.

But how do I know if I actually believe and I'm not just saying that and doing everything out of obedience in vain or that the miracles and the feeling of a presence was just a psychological thing I triggered? Or maybe I am just overcomplicating myself. I get worried at times because eternity is a long time without God.

Maybe I am misinterpreting the predestination view and thinking more of the hyper-Calvinist view instead?

The way I lived my life in the past, and the history with the struggles of my family I would never think God would choose me out of all people. I have friends from different religions that are raised in families and have a love for God, but they do not know Jesus Christ. They seem more worthy to be saved rather than me, and they reject the gospel anyways.

Why God would choose me? A poor man from a family with a rough history who hasn't seeked God, I don't know. While I have friends from successful families, who have a love for God but none of them know Jesus Christ and reject him. They are good people, but its sad to see they reject Jesus.

I understand and know having a relationship with God, and having eternal life is a priceless thing. Nothing in the world can compare. But I wonder what if my faith is not real and I am predestined to hell anyways?

The Gospel is not really The Gospel if people can't choose. Part of the reason is exactly what you shared.

 

[redleghunter]

But how do I know if I actually believe and I'm not just saying that and doing everything out of obedience in vain or that the miracles and the feeling of a presence was just a psychological thing I triggered? Or maybe I am just overcomplicating myself. I get worried at times because eternity is a long time without God.

The Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit.

Romans 8:

15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[HTacianas]

The scary thing about predestination is that we have no control whether we go to heaven or hell. We do understand that grace is a free unmerited gift, that we don't deserve.

I always wondered, can one really truly have faith in Jesus Christ yet not be saved because he was not predestined to heaven? I've been thinking about this myself, what if I am deluded and I don't actually have faith even though I believe, and that my regeneration was either a psychological reaction instead of a miracle or that God is allowing familiar spirits to play tricks on me making me think I have the Holy Spirit when I don't.

But that seems like dangerous thinking. Ever since I looked into predestination it has always caused some fear, as in making me think I am fooling myself and even though I have faith and even walk in my faith I have to wait or wonder when God is going to actually save me or if he will save me.

The only things I have as evidence is I believe in God, I believe that Jesus is God that he died for my sins, and that he raised from the dead. I believe the Bible is his word. I have had a miracle happen the moment I believed such as experiencing something mysterious and my life changing rapidly overnight, and my ongoing sanctification, the feeling a presence during communion, and my baptism.

But how do I know if I actually believe and I'm not just saying that and doing everything out of obedience in vain or that the miracles and the feeling of a presence was just a psychological thing I triggered? Or maybe I am just overcomplicating myself. I get worried at times because eternity is a long time without God.

Maybe I am misinterpreting the predestination view and thinking more of the hyper-Calvinist view instead?

The way I lived my life in the past, and the history with the struggles of my family I would never think God would choose me out of all people. I have friends from different religions that are raised in families and have a love for God, but they do not know Jesus Christ. They seem more worthy to be saved rather than me, and they reject the gospel anyways.

Why God would choose me? A poor man from a family with a rough history who hasn't seeked God, I don't know. While I have friends from successful families, who have a love for God but none of them know Jesus Christ and reject him. They are good people, but its sad to see they reject Jesus.

I understand and know having a relationship with God, and having eternal life is a priceless thing. Nothing in the world can compare. But I wonder what if my faith is not real and I am predestined to hell anyways?

According to Calvinist predestination that is possible. Imagine a room full of believers sitting on chairs. Now come back a year later and two of them are missing. They simply gave up and left. According to Calvinism they never were saved to begin with.

Now, who is to say which of the remaining ones are actually saved? Because next week any of them can leave and then be pronounced never saved. So there are people in the room who aren't saved. Do they think they are? Do they believe they are?

 

[fhansen]

The scary thing about predestination is that we have no control whether we go to heaven or hell. We do understand that grace is a free unmerited gift, that we don't deserve.

I always wondered, can one really truly have faith in Jesus Christ yet not be saved because he was not predestined to heaven? I've been thinking about this myself, what if I am deluded and I don't actually have faith even though I believe, and that my regeneration was either a psychological reaction instead of a miracle or that God is allowing familiar spirits to play tricks on me making me think I have the Holy Spirit when I don't.

But that seems like dangerous thinking. Ever since I looked into predestination it has always caused some fear, as in making me think I am fooling myself and even though I have faith and even walk in my faith I have to wait or wonder when God is going to actually save me or if he will save me.

The only things I have as evidence is I believe in God, I believe that Jesus is God that he died for my sins, and that he raised from the dead. I believe the Bible is his word. I have had a miracle happen the moment I believed such as experiencing something mysterious and my life changing rapidly overnight, and my ongoing sanctification, the feeling a presence during communion, and my baptism.

But how do I know if I actually believe and I'm not just saying that and doing everything out of obedience in vain or that the miracles and the feeling of a presence was just a psychological thing I triggered? Or maybe I am just overcomplicating myself. I get worried at times because eternity is a long time without God.

Maybe I am misinterpreting the predestination view and thinking more of the hyper-Calvinist view instead?

The way I lived my life in the past, and the history with the struggles of my family I would never think God would choose me out of all people. I have friends from different religions that are raised in families and have a love for God, but they do not know Jesus Christ. They seem more worthy to be saved rather than me, and they reject the gospel anyways.

Why God would choose me? A poor man from a family with a rough history who hasn't seeked God, I don't know. While I have friends from successful families, who have a love for God but none of them know Jesus Christ and reject him. They are good people, but its sad to see they reject Jesus.

I understand and know having a relationship with God, and having eternal life is a priceless thing. Nothing in the world can compare. But I wonder what if my faith is not real and I am predestined to hell anyways?

It's really a moot point. Because no one knows with 100% certainty whether or not they're numbered among the elect. The Bible tells us, in fact, that many will believe they're part of the kingdom, but are not, while others are unaware that they've done God's will, while having actually done so. God, alone, knows whose names are written in the Book of Life.

We have some guidelines though. "By their fruits you will know them." Consider Matt 25:31-46.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I always wondered, can one really truly have faith in Jesus Christ yet not be saved because he was not predestined to heaven?

No. Faith is a gift from God. You wouldn't truly have faith if you weren't predestined.

Or maybe I am just overcomplicating myself.

Yes. I think so.

Maybe I am misinterpreting the predestination view and thinking more of the hyper-Calvinist view instead?

That's not even hyper-Calvinist.

But I wonder what if my faith is not real and I am predestined to hell anyways?

You must admit that it's ironic how you have a lack of faith in your faith. It's like trying too hard to sleep, or trying too hard to be happy, or a variety of other things. You should be putting your faith in God, not focusing so much on this circular business of putting your faith in your faith, which is really just putting your faith in yourself. You'll never get anywhere with circular thinking like that.

You don't have faith by trying to have faith. You get it by trusting God. Focus on him.

 

[AvgJoe]

The scary thing about predestination is that we have no control whether we go to heaven or hell. We do understand that grace is a free unmerited gift, that we don't deserve.

I always wondered, can one really truly have faith in Jesus Christ yet not be saved because he was not predestined to heaven? I've been thinking about this myself, what if I am deluded and I don't actually have faith even though I believe, and that my regeneration was either a psychological reaction instead of a miracle or that God is allowing familiar spirits to play tricks on me making me think I have the Holy Spirit when I don't.

But that seems like dangerous thinking. Ever since I looked into predestination it has always caused some fear, as in making me think I am fooling myself and even though I have faith and even walk in my faith I have to wait or wonder when God is going to actually save me or if he will save me.

The only things I have as evidence is I believe in God, I believe that Jesus is God that he died for my sins, and that he raised from the dead. I believe the Bible is his word. I have had a miracle happen the moment I believed such as experiencing something mysterious and my life changing rapidly overnight, and my ongoing sanctification, the feeling a presence during communion, and my baptism.

But how do I know if I actually believe and I'm not just saying that and doing everything out of obedience in vain or that the miracles and the feeling of a presence was just a psychological thing I triggered? Or maybe I am just overcomplicating myself. I get worried at times because eternity is a long time without God.

Maybe I am misinterpreting the predestination view and thinking more of the hyper-Calvinist view instead?

The way I lived my life in the past, and the history with the struggles of my family I would never think God would choose me out of all people. I have friends from different religions that are raised in families and have a love for God, but they do not know Jesus Christ. They seem more worthy to be saved rather than me, and they reject the gospel anyways.

Why God would choose me? A poor man from a family with a rough history who hasn't seeked God, I don't know. While I have friends from successful families, who have a love for God but none of them know Jesus Christ and reject him. They are good people, but its sad to see they reject Jesus.

I understand and know having a relationship with God, and having eternal life is a priceless thing. Nothing in the world can compare. But I wonder what if my faith is not real and I am predestined to hell anyways?

In spite of Calvinist doctrine, the one part you do have in salvation is the choice to believe or not. The following eBook speaks directly on this subject, read it several times and learn the truth~~~> https://d3uet6ae1sqvww.cloudfront.n...ds-choice-or-ours-predestination-election.pdf

 

[Radagast]

I always wondered, can one really truly have faith in Jesus Christ yet not be saved because he was not predestined to heaven?

No. Those who are predestined come to have faith. Those who have faith are saved (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9)

Maybe I am misinterpreting the predestination view

I think so.

 

[bcbsr]

The scary thing about predestination is that we have no control whether we go to heaven or hell. We do understand that grace is a free unmerited gift, that we don't deserve.

I always wondered, can one really truly have faith in Jesus Christ yet not be saved because he was not predestined to heaven? I've been thinking about this myself, what if I am deluded and I don't actually have faith even though I believe, and that my regeneration was either a psychological reaction instead of a miracle or that God is allowing familiar spirits to play tricks on me making me think I have the Holy Spirit when I don't.

But that seems like dangerous thinking. Ever since I looked into predestination it has always caused some fear, as in making me think I am fooling myself and even though I have faith and even walk in my faith I have to wait or wonder when God is going to actually save me or if he will save me.

The only things I have as evidence is I believe in God, I believe that Jesus is God that he died for my sins, and that he raised from the dead. I believe the Bible is his word. I have had a miracle happen the moment I believed such as experiencing something mysterious and my life changing rapidly overnight, and my ongoing sanctification, the feeling a presence during communion, and my baptism.

But how do I know if I actually believe and I'm not just saying that and doing everything out of obedience in vain or that the miracles and the feeling of a presence was just a psychological thing I triggered? Or maybe I am just overcomplicating myself. I get worried at times because eternity is a long time without God.

Maybe I am misinterpreting the predestination view and thinking more of the hyper-Calvinist view instead?

The way I lived my life in the past, and the history with the struggles of my family I would never think God would choose me out of all people. I have friends from different religions that are raised in families and have a love for God, but they do not know Jesus Christ. They seem more worthy to be saved rather than me, and they reject the gospel anyways.

Why God would choose me? A poor man from a family with a rough history who hasn't seeked God, I don't know. While I have friends from successful families, who have a love for God but none of them know Jesus Christ and reject him. They are good people, but its sad to see they reject Jesus.

I understand and know having a relationship with God, and having eternal life is a priceless thing. Nothing in the world can compare. But I wonder what if my faith is not real and I am predestined to hell anyways?

You're talking about the Calvinist concept of predestination. I also believe in predestination, but not the fatalist Calvinist concept of predestination. The Bible speaks of predestination of believers. Those who have come to faith in Christ are predestined for eternal life. The Biblical teachings concerning predestination was intended to impart hope and comfort, a sense of security. But the Calvinistic notion of predestination largely does just the opposite, as you have been experiencing.

Eph 1:11-14 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession— to the praise of his glory.

Paul is talking to those who have come to faith in Christ. That's the "we" he's referring to. If a person genuinely believes, then they are predestined.

As for "worthiness", Paul classified himself as the chief of all sinners. A person is not saved by works. He's not saved based on performance. He's saved by faith apart from works, even as a wicked man.

Rom 4:5 "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

The way a person is saved is by not trying to be saved. Rather he puts his trust fully in Jesus to save him, apart from any issues of performance on his part. Yes, there are those who preach a different gospel saying that you have to work to be saved. But they themselves are disqualified in that their faith in not fully in Christ, but in themselves, to save themselves by their works.

So rather than worrying whether or not God has chosen you, what you should be doing is simply trust in Christ to save you and not worry about it. Worrying about it shows lack of trust in Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

According to Calvinist predestination that is possible. Imagine a room full of believers sitting on chairs. Now come back a year later and two of them are missing. They simply gave up and left. According to Calvinism they never were saved to begin with.

Now, who is to say which of the remaining ones are actually saved? Because next week any of them can leave and then be pronounced never saved. So there are people in the room who aren't saved. Do they think they are? Do they believe they are?

Indeed. God knows His elect.

 

[Radagast]

According to Calvinist predestination that is possible.

Umm, no. You're forgetting the fifth point of Calvinism.

 

[HTacianas]

Umm, no. You're forgetting the fifth point of Calvinism.

Do explain what you mean.

 

[redleghunter]

Do explain what you mean.

By your post you seem to know loads about Calvinism. It should be easy to answer his inquiry.

 

[Radagast]

Do explain what you mean.

The true doctrine having been explained, the Synod [the Synod of Dordt, which formulated what we now call the Five Points of Calvinism] rejects the errors of those ... who teach: That the true believers and regenerate not only can fall from justifying faith and likewise from grace and salvation wholly and to the end, but indeed often do fall from this and are lost forever. For this conception makes powerless the grace, justification, regeneration, and continued keeping by Christ, contrary to the expressed words of the Apostle Paul: "That while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Much more then, being justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him" (Romans 5:8-9). And contrary to the Apostle John: "Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him; and he can not sin, because he is begotten of God" (1 John 3:9). And also contrary to the words of Jesus Christ: "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father who hath given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand" (John 10:28-29).

 

[HTacianas]

The true doctrine having been explained, the Synod [the Synod of Dordt, which formulated what we now call the Five Points of Calvinism] rejects the errors of those ... who teach: That the true believers and regenerate not only can fall from justifying faith and likewise from grace and salvation wholly and to the end, but indeed often do fall from this and are lost forever. For this conception makes powerless the grace, justification, regeneration, and continued keeping by Christ, contrary to the expressed words of the Apostle Paul: "That while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Much more then, being justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him" (Romans 5:8-9). And contrary to the Apostle John: "Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him; and he can not sin, because he is begotten of God" (1 John 3:9). And also contrary to the words of Jesus Christ: "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father who hath given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand" (John 10:28-29).

I don't see how that conflicts with what I've had to say.

 

[Radagast]

I don't see how that conflicts with what I've had to say.

That's because you don't understand Calvinism.

How about you don't try to "explain" Calvinism to people, and I won't try to "explain" Orthodoxy.

 

[HTacianas]

That's because you don't understand Calvinism.

How about you don't try to "explain" Calvinism to people, and I won't try to "explain" Orthodoxy.

Hey. You can't just keep saying "nuh-uh". If you see something wrong with anything I've said explain to the group so we all understand.

 

[fhansen]

That's because you don't understand Calvinism.

How about you don't try to "explain" Calvinism to people, and I won't try to "explain" Orthodoxy.

I think the poster is just stating the obvious-that a total assurance of one's salvation unavoidably contains a subjective element, a self-assessment of one's level or quality of faith and a reliance on that assessment, which may or may not be accurate.

Of course the elect will persevere; that's pretty well redundant, isn't it? But knowing what only God knows perfectly, meaning who, exactly, constitute the elect, is another matter.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day, JohnB445

A biblical understanding of the right of God in his free will to predestination those whom he wills is indeed a humbling realty. I can suggest a couple of resources that I have found helpful.

1. Willing to believe by RC Sproul
2. A Defense of Calvinism by CH Spurgeon
3. Five Reasons to Embrace Unconditional Election

Hope that helps,


Bill