This is an alternative to the view of Calvinism

GodsGrace101 · Dec 19, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
But again, you assume if God causes all things, that he coerces. It does not follow. God makes, God influences, God brings to mind, God does all sorts of things, in order to bring about the choices that will be made —he doesn't only command and suggest. I don't remember who I described the Jonah story to: That God put Jonah through all sorts of things in order for him to have the attitude and demeanor and appearance that he had when he finally obeyed God. The atheist will mock: "Why does God go through all that trouble, if he is omnipotent? Why not immediately make Jonah look and act like that, instead going through it all bit by bit? Or better yet, why not just make Ninevah repentant, without Jonah?", and I say, "Maybe from God's point of view, he did instantly do that, but this is how he did it!"

Anyhow, yes, God coerced Jonah to make his free decision. He did not, however coerce Jonah (in the same way) every step of the way to that end. He CAUSED Jonah to hate Ninevah, and yes, Jonah caused that himself. He thereby CAUSED Jonah's rebellion, and thereby CAUSED there to be an attempted escape by Jonah etc etc etc.

I also see no outside coercion.

GodsGrace101 said:
Show me some scripture that shows predestination is for our salvation.
Mark Quayle said:
Ephesians 2: "1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Ephesians 2 shows predestination is for our salvation. It describes here both predestination, to include the purpose of predestination, and what that predestination entails —the fact we were dead, and were made alive even though we were dead, and that, by Grace, through which he raised us up for his purposes.

Exactly. So, WHY do I like it better? Always, another cause behind each effect.

You cannot show me how God decreeing my choice means I don't have a choice.

All good philosophy and science assumes the following to be true, that if a thing exists, it is caused to exist, unless it is self-existent. All effects are caused. All things that begin to exist were caused to exist. Einstein balked at the notion that quantum physics suggests that anything can happen be observed to happen apart from that thing being caused to happen.

I don't know if I've laid out this sequence of thought for you before: Take all you believe, assume it true, including even that integrity/reality of actual real choice, however you reason it to be. (Most Freewillers are ok with the notion that there are multiple causes behind their preferences and influences upon their choices. In fact, I note that some of them even say that what a person might choose is sometimes very predictable.) Anyhow, there is no end of cause impinging on one's decisions, including frame of mind at the time, usual preferences, needs, sudden desires vs long term hopes and the list goes on and on. There is, at least, no such thing as completely uninfluenced decision. Ok. Take from that understanding the fact that the effect (the decision) is done by at least some influence, and that each influence descended from other causes. If you leave God out of the mix as first cause, then most have no problem with this line of thinking so far. But if not, WHY not? And if you add God to the list of causes, as the beginning of them all, how does that change anything as to whether the decision was real?

Unlike some others on this site, I think you would at least agree with me that there is nothing that can happen without God being at least aware of it. I'm guessing you also would agree that God at least knew about it (even if he somehow did not cause it) from the beginning. I'm thinking you would shrink from the attraction of the notion that anything can be unknown to God until it comes to pass —that there are things that can happen, which in and of themselves ARE the future-created-reality-as-it-happens such that God did not know about that future —that all this sort of thing speaks contrary to the Bible and to good reason.

I'll leave it there for now and not try to force the issue. I'm hoping you can at least admit to this bigger picture.

I don't know where I said I don't agree with that teaching. —with what teaching? Calvinism? I easily agree with most of what Calvinism teaches, that I am aware of. Not really sure what they teach that I DON'T agree with, other than a point of view stance, perhaps.

That's fine to see yourself that way, but can you not see how that is all one kind of fact, within the larger fact of God's having caused it to come into being?

I assume you are referring to the above, and particularly to this:
John 7:16-17
16"So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
17“If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself."

I'm sorry, but I don't see how that rules out God's having spoken all fact into being. I see no contradiction between the two things there: real actual true choice, real will, and God's causation of it. Every action by man mentioned in these references, is indeed real. Your argument seems to say it is not if it is caused by God. Mine, is that it is not real if it is NOT caused by God. God spoke. We live it out.

And I expect that your mind hits a dead end, where my mind sees freedom, in that it is only by the fact that God has caused my choices, that there is anything real about them!

Hi Mark,
No time to answer this today...
but I looked through YouTube this morning to see what I could see. lol
I think the following is what you believe about free will.
If you do, then I agree.
The problem is that it doesn't involve God.
As I always thought, I THINK you're talking about philosophical free will and I'm talking about predestination on God's part.
But, OTOH, you also bring up that everything goes back all the way to God...
Anyway, here it is: Interestingly done, but much too long for what it has to say...

Mark Quayle · Dec 19, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
Hi Mark,
No time to answer this today...
but I looked through YouTube this morning to see what I could see. lol
I think the following is what you believe about free will.
If you do, then I agree.
The problem is that it doesn't involve God.
As I always thought, I THINK you're talking about philosophical free will and I'm talking about predestination on God's part.
But, OTOH, you also bring up that everything goes back all the way to God...
Anyway, here it is: Interestingly done, but much too long for what it has to say...

Around 2:45 it said Cayce saw how he had clicked on the video, etc etc, "all without choosing". I say he DID choose. It continues to pound this as though to have no [libertarian] free will means 'no choice'.
Around 12:08 it said something about how he realized he never really had been doing anything.
14:40 "deterministic fatalism"
15:50 "the illusion is real" And there, it pretty well ends. I don't know why, with such a dead claim, (unless it is just saying that Cayce realized that his part in what had seemed like a piece in a game actually was not in a game but in reality).

I certainly don't call it an illusion. I call the options of our choices logically all illusions except for whatever we choose, but that is only to describe the fact that while our choices cause effects (consequences), within this reality we inhabit, we only thought ourselves to be the sole determiners of those choices, while God (through long chain causation (and, to be honest, what we see as 'long-chain' is to God —who knows?— possibly very much 'short-chain', or even 'direct' causation, since he is intimately involved in every detail)) has caused it all. We freely choose between perceived options. Even I agree that I choose; whether I recognize or like the fact that I am caused to choose what I do is irrelevant as to whether it is a fact. I don't know which of the perceived options is the one I'm predestined to choose until I choose it, but it doesn't matter that I don't know.

Anyhow, one proof that this life is not just an illusion, or as someone is said to claim, having proved it 'most likely' by computer, a game in which we are players, is the fact that Christ really did die on the cross. That was not just a part in a play. It was real, and the heel of the divine seed of the woman has been bruised.

But the Bible does seem to consider it a vapor, compared to the solid reality of God's economy.

Anyway, no. I do not think what is described in this video is even nearly all there is to it. It is only a trail that someone went through in their thinking. (A trail that I did not travel, in my experience, btw).

There is something about this reality that I consider divine, in that it is not a projection by God for our development as though we actually are pupils in a school in Heaven, undergoing training (yes, some people think something along those lines), but as people born to this 'reality' being developed for our place in Heaven. I don't want to try to develop this further right now, for lack of time and lack of room on the page, and lack of definition, that has everything to do with the fact that we are made in the image of God, unlike angels, dogs, rocks, air, theories or math. I don't think that being made in the image of God has to do with 'free will', nor intelligence, nor even 'wisdom, knowledge and understanding', but most likely with 'being one with him'.

And in that fact of the divinity (at least in its creation) of its being, I say its very reality is BECAUSE of God's decree causing all things. Please try to take this as just one way for me to broach the subject. It is not very well expressed, and I'm not sure at all it even begins to say what I really want to say.

And again, thanks for listening.

GodsGrace101 · Dec 20, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Around 2:45 it said Cayce saw how he had clicked on the video, etc etc, "all without choosing". I say he DID choose. It continues to pound this as though to have no [libertarian] free will means 'no choice'.
Around 12:08 it said something about how he realized he never really had been doing anything.
14:40 "deterministic fatalism"
15:50 "the illusion is real" And there, it pretty well ends. I don't know why, with such a dead claim, (unless it is just saying that Cayce realized that his part in what had seemed like a piece in a game actually was not in a game but in reality).

I certainly don't call it an illusion. I call the options of our choices logically all illusions except for whatever we choose, but that is only to describe the fact that while our choices cause effects (consequences), within this reality we inhabit, we only thought ourselves to be the sole determiners of those choices, while God (through long chain causation (and, to be honest, what we see as 'long-chain' is to God —who knows?— possibly very much 'short-chain', or even 'direct' causation, since he is intimately involved in every detail)) has caused it all. We freely choose between perceived options. Even I agree that I choose; whether I recognize or like the fact that I am caused to choose what I do is irrelevant as to whether it is a fact. I don't know which of the perceived options is the one I'm predestined to choose until I choose it, but it doesn't matter that I don't know.

Anyhow, one proof that this life is not just an illusion, or as someone is said to claim, having proved it 'most likely' by computer, a game in which we are players, is the fact that Christ really did die on the cross. That was not just a part in a play. It was real, and the heel of the divine seed of the woman has been bruised.

But the Bible does seem to consider it a vapor, compared to the solid reality of God's economy.

Anyway, no. I do not think what is described in this video is even nearly all there is to it. It is only a trail that someone went through in their thinking. (A trail that I did not travel, in my experience, btw).

There is something about this reality that I consider divine, in that it is not a projection by God for our development as though we actually are pupils in a school in Heaven, undergoing training (yes, some people think something along those lines), but as people born to this 'reality' being developed for our place in Heaven. I don't want to try to develop this further right now, for lack of time and lack of room on the page, and lack of definition, that has everything to do with the fact that we are made in the image of God, unlike angels, dogs, rocks, air, theories or math. I don't think that being made in the image of God has to do with 'free will', nor intelligence, nor even 'wisdom, knowledge and understanding', but most likely with 'being one with him'.

And in that fact of the divinity (at least in its creation) of its being, I say its very reality is BECAUSE of God's decree causing all things. Please try to take this as just one way for me to broach the subject. It is not very well expressed, and I'm not sure at all it even begins to say what I really want to say.

And again, thanks for listening.

I'm surprised.
The video I linked was about how we do decide what we want but how it goes back and back to other things happening, or that had happened, I should say.

It just doesn't take the choosing all the way back to God.

I do want to say that being made in the image of God does not mean being made one with Him.
It means what it says: Being made in the IMAGE of God.
An image has some things of the original but it is not the original, nor does it become one with the original.
It is something different and apart that has some attributes of the original.

For instance, some attributes God has that He bestowed on us would be:
Intelligence
Wisdom
Knowledge
Understanding
Free Will
Love
Family
Creativity
Socialization
Mercy
Justice

Can't think of anything else right now.

Mark Quayle · Dec 20, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
I do want to say that being made in the image of God does not mean being made one with Him.
It means what it says: Being made in the IMAGE of God.
An image has some things of the original but it is not the original, nor does it become one with the original.
It is something different and apart that has some attributes of the original.

That's a good point.

However, I don't think the fact we are/can be one with him is a totally separate issue from being made in his image. I'm quite a bit more than fairly certain, that no other creature will be one with him quite the way we will be.

But to hammer the idea a little more: Being MADE IN the image of God is a whole different thing from BEING the Exact Image of God, which is attributed to Christ alone. No, it doesn't necessarily imply being made one with Him. Nor does being the image of God necessarily imply being made one with God, though he obviously IS one with God. Yet we know we will be one with him, though I don't see that as quite the same thing as being one with him the way the Son is one with the Father within the Godhead. I can't quite give credence to the notion that the Body of Christ will be the fourth person of the Trinity.

GodsGrace101 said:
For instance, some attributes God has that He bestowed on us would be:
Intelligence
Wisdom
Knowledge
Understanding
Free Will
Love
Family
Creativity
Socialization
Mercy
Justice

Can't think of anything else right now.

Yet all these are in relatively small measure (to state it in terms of ridiculous proportion), compared to him. We may be creative, but we can not create.

I think the angels would laugh at the notion that our knowledge and intelligence is a result of being made in the image of God.

fhansen · Jan 18, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
First I will summarize the view of salvation:

Man is born into sin, and follows after the sin nature

God reveals who He is to man, and calls man to turn from sin to Him

Man either turns from sin to God, and receives enlightenment, and God’s assistance

If man rejects God, he moves toward Spiritual blindness

I will summarize the view of God’s plan for man:

God who cannot sin, does not create a plan that causes sin

God knows that within the constraints He has made man may sin

God who works all things together for good, works with in the fallen world to move things to a good outcome.

Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.

Man is born into sin, and follows after the sin nature

It is true that man is at least influenced by evil. As Paul mentioned, man can desire to do good, but his flesh wars against that desire.

Rom 7:19-23 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

God reveals who He is to man, and calls man to turn from sin to Him

God sent His son into the world to give light to man, He gives this light to all men.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

We can become sons if we walk in the light He gives.

John 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light."

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness.

Man either turns from sin to God, and receives enlightenment, and God’s assistance

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

If man rejects God, he moves toward Spiritual blindness

Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

God who cannot sin, does not create a plan that causes sin

James 1:13-17 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

God knows that within the constraints He has made man may sin

Mat 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!

God who works all things together for God, works with in the fallen world to move things to a good outcome.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.

God sets boundaries on our lives, restrictions, so we can find Him.

Act 17:26-27 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

God does not have perfect knowledge of our every choice, but plans around our choices.

Genesis 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

The following is a case study to show this. In the Psalms King David wrote:

Psalms 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.

So we see that David says God had a plan written down for him in a book before he was formed in his mother womb. Which is not an uncommon thought. We also see of Jeremiah:

Jerimiah 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.

So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

King David, as an example, sinned by killing a man and taking the man’s wife to be his own.

2 Samuel 12:7-12 Then Nathan told David: You are that rich man! Now listen to what the LORD God of Israel says to you: "I chose you to be the king of Israel. I kept you safe from Saul and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. Why did you disobey me and do such a horrible thing? You murdered Uriah the Hittite by having the Ammonites kill him, so you could take his wife. "Because you wouldn't obey me and took Uriah's wife for yourself, your family will never live in peace. Someone from your own family will cause you a lot of trouble, and I will take your wives and give them to another man before your very eyes. He will go to bed with them while everyone looks on. What you did was in secret, but I will do this in the open for everyone in Israel to see."

So what are we looking for in this scripture? Three things, a) God said “I would have given you much more”, if David did not sin his pathway would have been blessed even more, b) God said “Because you wouldn't obey me” a curse came into his life, c) God saying “Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house,” (KJV), God changed David’s story.

So it is true that God assigns us a destiny “before we were born”, a Godly task to do, but if we obey, we will live, if we disobey we will have a curse. Our life is not set to one story, but is bound to our actions in response to God and other events.

Jerimiah 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Even Jeremiah had moments where he could have lost his calling.

Jerimiah 15:19 Then the LORD told me: Stop talking like a fool! If you turn back to me and speak my message, I will let you be my prophet once again. I hope the people of Judah will accept what you say. But you can ignore their threats.

The Early Church also preached free will of man, showing that man was not set to a fixed destiny.

Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

And this has pretty much been the historic teaching of the Christian faith since the beginning. I’d only add that the church has historically understood your bullet point #2, about God’s calling, to mean that man cannot possibly even turn himself to God; God must reach down and stir or move us towards Himself. However, that grace is still resistible by man. We can say no at the beginning, or say no and turn back away later on, after having entered fellowship with Him. Faith, as with hope and love, is both a gift, and a human choice.

5thKingdom · Jan 20, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
First I will summarize the view of salvation:

Man is born into sin, and follows after the sin nature

God reveals who He is to man, and calls man to turn from sin to Him

Man either turns from sin to God, and receives enlightenment, and God’s assistance

If man rejects God, he moves toward Spiritual blindness

(1) Yes, man is born spiritually DEAD

(2) God does NOT reveal Himself to save EVERYMAN... only to "His Sheep" and no others.

(3) NO MAN can "turn from sin" before regeneration... how can they? They are DEAD remember?
Please read Romans 3:10-12. Please read it carefully.

You have a classic synergistic "works" gospel, nothing new.
It is not the Gospel of the Bible and not the Gospel of the Apostles.
In fact, It's the BROAD WAY that leads Christians into eternal torment

The narrow way that leads Christians into eternal life
is a monergistic Gospel of Grace Alone.

Only 1 Gospel can be the True Gospel, we have 2 choices:

(1) a gospel where MAN does something to become saved

(2) The Gospel of Sovereign Grace Alone where God does everything.

Jee... I wonder which is more God Glorifying?

/

5thKingdom · Jan 20, 2023

fhansen said:
And this has pretty much been the historic teaching of the Christian faith since the beginning.

Yes sir you are technically correct:
The synergistic "works" gospel has been around since the start.
Because Jesus PROMISED false gospels would come as "leaven" into the Church.

The QUESTION is not when it was preached.
The question is it that what the Bible and Apostles taught.
And it is not.

I would be glad to debate any of your "proof" texts

fhansen said:
I’d only add that the church has historically understood your bullet point #2, about God’s calling, to mean that man cannot possibly even turn himself to God; God must reach down and stir or move us towards Himself.

Sir, John 6 is clear:

NO MAN comes to Christ unless the Father "draws" them
ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Christ - and He loses NONE of them.

Please explain to me WHERE does it say SOME MEN are given to Christ but not saved?
That is just "another gospel" entirely.

BTW: It is interesting that AFTER His disciples realized Jesus was teaching salvation by election,
MANY of them immediately abandoned Him [Jn 6:65-66].

Now, why in the world would anyone abandon the Son of God.
The answer is obvious: They (like many today) do not want a salvation plan
where GOD ALONE elects "His Sheep". They wanted a salvation plan where MAN decides.
Sound familiar?

fhansen said:
However, that grace is still resistible by man.

LOL... man can resist God's Providence.

fhansen said:
We can say no at the beginning, or say no and turn back away later on, after having entered fellowship with Him. Faith, as with hope and love, is both a gift, and a human choice.

So it's the Will of Man (not the Will of God) that produces salvation.

The biggest joke here is the Bible NEVER teaches a Universal Atonement.
So your synergistic "works" gospel has no basis in Scripture.

Jim

FutureAndAHope · Jan 20, 2023

5thKingdom said:
(1) Yes, man is born spiritually DEAD

(2) God does NOT reveal Himself to save EVERYMAN... only to "His Sheep" and no others.

(3) NO MAN can "turn from sin" before regeneration... how can they? They are DEAD remember?
Please read Romans 3:10-12. Please read it carefully.

You have a classic synergistic "works" gospel, nothing new.
It is not the Gospel of the Bible and not the Gospel of the Apostles.
In fact, It's the BROAD WAY that leads Christians into eternal torment

The narrow way that leads Christians into eternal life
is a monergistic Gospel of Grace Alone.

Only 1 Gospel can be the True Gospel, we have 2 choices:

(1) a gospel where MAN does something to become saved

(2) The Gospel of Sovereign Grace Alone where God does everything.

Jee... I wonder which is more God Glorifying?

/

God does desire all people to be saved, he has not got a special crowd that He blesses.

1Ti 2:1-4 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The early church fought for this idea:

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 [A.D. 120-202] shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We see this in all the Early Church Fathers.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good;

Only 1 Gospel can be the True Gospel, we have 2 choices:

(1) a gospel where MAN does something to become saved

(2) The Gospel of Sovereign Grace Alone where God does everything.

Jee... I wonder which is more God Glorifying?

It is not so much man does good deeds to get to heaven, but they are important, for faith without works is dead. But rather GOd tells man to turn from sin, if they obey Him they will live, if they disobey they will perish.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasure. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

What did Jesus say about keeping HIs word?

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

5thKingdom · Jan 20, 2023

5thKingdom said:
(1) Yes, man is born spiritually DEAD
(2) God does NOT reveal Himself to save EVERYMAN... only to "His Sheep" and no others.
(3) NO MAN can "turn from sin" before regeneration... how can they? They are DEAD remember?
Please read Romans 3:10-12. Please read it carefully.

FutureAndAHope said:
God does desire all people to be saved, he has not got a special crowd that He blesses.

1Ti 2:1-4 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

No, if God desired EVERYONE BORN to be saved... that would be fulfilled. God cannot fail to do His Will.
That is silly.

Your problem is you do not understand the CONTEXT of 1Tim 2:1-4... you ASSUME that means EVERYONE BORN
when the CONTEXT is found in verse 1:9.

The CONTEXT of 2 Tim is for those "called" and those "saved" according to His Sovereign Grace:
The CONTEXT is limited to all of "His Sheep"

2Ti 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus [when we were elected] before the world began,

FutureAndAHope said:
The early church fought for this idea:

Sir, you deflect AND you forget...
Jesus and the Apostles PROMISED the early church and the church throughout time would consist of BOTH
the saved "wheat/sheep" (sown by God) and the unsaved "tares/goats" (sown by Satan)

AND they PROMISED
the unsaved "tares" would bring false doctrines into the church and the "leaven" of false teachers
would corrupt the church... which is WHY there are thousands of different churches teaching different Gospels.

In fact, just read Revelation 1 and 2 to see the extent of corruption in the church
BEFORE the end of the first century.

FutureAndAHope said:
It is not so much man does good deeds to get to heaven, but they are important, for faith without works is dead. But rather GOd tells man to turn from sin, if they obey Him they will live, if they disobey they will perish.

I will remind you of the subject of this discussion because you are not on point:

5thKingdom said:
(1) Yes, man is born spiritually DEAD
(2) God does NOT reveal Himself to save EVERYMAN... only to "His Sheep" and no others.
(3) NO MAN can "turn from sin" before regeneration... how can they? They are DEAD remember?
Please read Romans 3:10-12. Please read it carefully.

/

FutureAndAHope · Jan 20, 2023

5thKingdom said:
5thKingdom said:
(1) Yes, man is born spiritually DEAD
(2) God does NOT reveal Himself to save EVERYMAN... only to "His Sheep" and no others.
(3) NO MAN can "turn from sin" before regeneration... how can they? They are DEAD remember?
Please read Romans 3:10-12. Please read it carefully.

No, if God desired EVERYONE BORN to be saved... that would be fulfilled. God cannot fail to do His Will.
That is silly.

Your problem is you do not understand the CONTEXT of 1Tim 2:1-4... you ASSUME that means EVERYONE BORN
when the CONTEXT is found in verse 1:9.

The CONTEXT of 2 Tim is for those "called" and those "saved" according to His Sovereign Grace:
The CONTEXT is limited to all of "His Sheep"

2Ti 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus [when we were elected] before the world began,

Sir, you deflect AND you forget...
Jesus and the Apostles PROMISED the early church and the church throughout time would consist of BOTH
the saved "wheat/sheep" (sown by God) and the unsaved "tares/goats" (sown by Satan)

AND they PROMISED
the unsaved "tares" would bring false doctrines into the church and the "leaven" of false teachers
would corrupt the church... which is WHY there are thousands of different churches teaching different Gospels.

In fact, just read Revelation 1 and 2 to see the extent of corruption in the church
BEFORE the end of the first century.

I will remind you of the subject of this discussion because you are not on point:

5thKingdom said:
(1) Yes, man is born spiritually DEAD
(2) God does NOT reveal Himself to save EVERYMAN... only to "His Sheep" and no others.
(3) NO MAN can "turn from sin" before regeneration... how can they? They are DEAD remember?
Please read Romans 3:10-12. Please read it carefully.

/

It is true that God only reveals Himself, in a saving sense, to those who obey Him. He blinds the rest.

We see this concept in the last day deceptions. God blinds those who did not receive a love of the truth.

2Th 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But who are God's sheep, those who obey:

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 3:16-21 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Now let's return to the scriptures order of enlightenment:

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Scripture:

God shows His will and command
If man obeys he is enlightened by God
God loves the man because he has obeyed

Calvin:

Man can not obey, he is dead in sin
So God selects a few pre-chosen people for life
God loves the person only because he has chosen them

Who should I believe Calvin or Jesus?

Mark Quayle · Jan 21, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
Scripture:

God shows His will and command

If man obeys he is enlightened by God

God loves the man because he has obeyed

Calvin:

Man can not obey, he is dead in sin

So God selects a few pre-chosen people for life

God loves the person only because he has chosen them

Who should I believe Calvin or Jesus?

Strawman factory hard at work, with surprisingly few safety incidents this month.

According to you, this is what Calvin(ism) teaches:

"Man can not obey, he is dead in sin"
"So God selects a few pre-chosen people for life" —"SO"? God selects because man is dead in sin?? Calvin claims no such thing.
"God loves the person only because he has chosen them" —It is true that his particular love is not based on any merit of the loved. Yet, he also has a universal love. But the notion that God is not particular in his degree (or type) of love, and that he loves all creatures equally is experientially, logically and scripturally bogus. Have you forgotten that John refers to "the disciple that Jesus loved"? Have you forgotten that Malachi 1 says that he loved Jacob and hated Esau? Have you forgotten that he chose Israel for his particular attention? —AND WHY? Because they obeyed???? NO!!!

F&H:

"God shows His will and command"—thus God set up the equation, and it is up to man to fill in the values.
"If man obeys he is enlightened by God"—thus any man who was smart enough and good enough to want to enough, can opt out of his spiritual death, all of his own power of freewill. Only then will God respond by "enlightening" him.
"God loves the man because he has obeyed"—thus, man has earned God's love. And thus he has reason to boast.

Scripture:

God chose many people upon whom to show mercy and love, and to give them life, for his own specific purposes
"Natural man" cannot of himself obey; he is dead in sin
God loves whom he loves through no merit of their own.

Whom should I believe —F&H or Scripture?

5thKingdom · Jan 21, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
It is true that God only reveals Himself, in a saving sense, to those who obey Him. He blinds the rest.

No, it is true that God only reveals Himself to those He elected...
the "works" of man have NOTHING to do with Salvation.
Read what God says:

Rom 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

There is no ROOM for the "works of man" in God's Salvation Plan
There is another example showing Salvation is a Sovereign Work of God... not the "works" of man

Rom 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There is no ROOM for the "works of man" in God's Salvation Plan

FutureAndAHope said:
God shows His will and command

If man obeys he is enlightened by God

Please tell me HOW MANY men will "seek God"?
The Bible PROMISES that none will... no, not even one.
So your theory is a false doctrine developed by false teachers.
Since it contradicts Scriptures.

Rom 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Your theory is DESTROYED by one verse.
That is how weak your false doctrine really is

Jim

FutureAndAHope · Jan 22, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Have you forgotten that he chose Israel for his particular attention? —AND WHY? Because they obeyed???? NO!!!

Israel was chosen in Abraham, and Abraham was in turn chosen due to his obedience to God's call.

Jas 2:21-24 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 22, 2023

5thKingdom said:
No, it is true that God only reveals Himself to those He elected...
the "works" of man have NOTHING to do with Salvation.
Read what God says:

Rom 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Yes God will have mercy on who He wills, and whom He wills hardens. But if you look back at what I posted it is obedient upon whom he places mercy. Man can not just "will" to be saved, he must come God's way.

5thKingdom said:
There is no ROOM for the "works of man" in God's Salvation Plan
There is another example showing Salvation is a Sovereign Work of God... not the "works" of man

Jas 2:21-24 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

5thKingdom said:
Rom 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There is no ROOM for the "works of man" in God's Salvation Plan

Regarding God's foreknowledge, to me, it says nothing more than God knew there would be people who would respond to Him in faith, he chose or predestined them to receive life.

Justin Marytr (A.D. 110-165) says it this way:

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

5thKingdom said:
Please tell me HOW MANY men will "seek God"?
The Bible PROMISES that none will... no, not even one.
So your theory is a false doctrine developed by false teachers.
Since it contradicts Scriptures.

Rom 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

No one starts out enlightened. As it says in Job.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Look closely I urge you for the sake of truth, there is a choice that God gives. He enlightens us, we choose the path.

5thKingdom said:
Your theory is DESTROYED by one verse.
That is how weak your false doctrine really is

Jim

I have Jesus's words which say obedience leads to enlightenment, Job which says "it is a choice", and James who states it is NOT just by faith only. On top of that, the Early Church Fathers are with me.

Mark Quayle · Jan 22, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
Israel was chosen in Abraham, and Abraham was in turn chosen due to his obedience to God's call.

Jas 2:21-24 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Do a little exegesis concerning what kind of 'justification' James is referring to here. But ignoring for the moment, the fact that "justification" here is not referring to what Paul refers to by 'Justification' in Romans 3:28, notice that here you are claiming salvation by works, when formerly you (as I remember) affirmed, just as Ephesians 2 says, that it is not by works.

Also, notice that nowhere here does it reference Abraham (nor anyone else) being "chosen due to his obedience to God's call".

FutureAndAHope · Jan 22, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Do a little exegesis concerning what kind of 'justification' James is referring to here. But ignoring for the moment, the fact that "justification" here is not referring to what Paul refers to by 'Justification' in Romans 3:28, notice that here you are claiming salvation by works, when formerly you (as I remember) affirmed, just as Ephesians 2 says, that it is not by works.

Also, notice that nowhere here does it reference Abraham (nor anyone else) being "chosen due to his obedience to God's call".

I am not actually saying salvation is by obedience to the law. I am saying it is by obedience to what God reveals. Which primarily is the call of faith:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

A man is justified by faith, not by works of the law. This does not negate the call to obedience. Which Christ made, and is throughout scripture.

Mat 7:21-27 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' Build Your House on the Rock "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

Mark Quayle · Jan 22, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Do a little exegesis concerning what kind of 'justification' James is referring to here. But ignoring for the moment, the fact that "justification" here is not referring to what Paul refers to by 'Justification' in Romans 3:28, notice that here you are claiming salvation by works, when formerly you (as I remember) affirmed, just as Ephesians 2 says, that it is not by works.

Also, notice that nowhere here does it reference Abraham (nor anyone else) being "chosen due to his obedience to God's call".

FutureAndAHope said:
I am not actually saying salvation is by obedience to the law. I am saying it is by obedience to what God reveals. Which primarily is the call of faith:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

A man is justified by faith, not by works of the law. This does not negate the call to obedience. Which Christ made, and is throughout scripture.

Mat 7:21-27 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' Build Your House on the Rock "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

You have not answered: 'nowhere here does it reference Abraham (nor anyone else) being "chosen due to his obedience to God's call".'

FutureAndAHope · Jan 22, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Mark Quayle said:
Do a little exegesis concerning what kind of 'justification' James is referring to here. But ignoring for the moment, the fact that "justification" here is not referring to what Paul refers to by 'Justification' in Romans 3:28, notice that here you are claiming salvation by works, when formerly you (as I remember) affirmed, just as Ephesians 2 says, that it is not by works.

Also, notice that nowhere here does it reference Abraham (nor anyone else) being "chosen due to his obedience to God's call".

You have not answered: 'nowhere here does it reference Abraham (nor anyone else) being "chosen due to his obedience to God's call".'

It is not a group of acts that lead to Abraham's justification but rather the act of believing God.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

As it is with salvation, God comes, He calls, but we must act in faith, we must believe. The actions that Abraham took were a result of this faith.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 22, 2023

As for why was Abraham chosen in the first place, it was certainly not because he was wicked.

Psa 138:6 Though the LORD is on high, Yet He regards the lowly; But the proud He knows from afar.

As we see with Noah, his character found favor with God.

Gen 6:5-8 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

We also see Cornelius was chosen to be the first Gentile convert due to his godly character.

Act 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

This is the kind of obedience I believe Jesus is talking about in John 14:

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Yet God's grace is extended to even the wicked.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

Yet the wicked must still consider, and change, repent.

Eze 18:28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Mark Quayle · Jan 22, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
It is not a group of acts that lead to Abraham's justification but rather the act of believing God.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

As it is with salvation, God comes, He calls, but we must act in faith, we must believe. The actions that Abraham took were a result of this faith.

I will try again, from a different tack: Where do you get the notion that he was CHOSEN from that verse? Then tell me how being CHOSEN was a result of "his obedience to God's call", as you put it.

This is an alternative to the view of Calvinism

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