Thanks for taking the time at least to answer. If you also took the time to read through this, thanks for that. Here you say I "haven't ever explained how a will could be free AND we are predetermined to act in certain ways and to make all choices." My last three paragraphs below were one way to explain it, and I have explained it many other ways, all to no avail. You don't even recognize them as at least attempts to explain, here.
Hi Mark,
I always read your entire posts.
They take time and I think it would be nasty not to read such well thought out posts.
Yes, honestly I do have a problem with a will being free AND predeterminism.
IOW, It's like you giving a child the choice of what flavor ice-cream he wants
BUT
YOU have already predetermined which flavor he will choose.
HOW is that free will?
You say you don't believe in compatibilist free will (if I remember correctly), but that is exactly what you believe in, at least unless you're making up another TYPE of will.
Compatibilist free will says that you choose what you want to choose,
but it is God making you will to make that choice.
IOW, it's coerced, it's forced.
It would be easy if you agreed, but then you go on to say that you are not a compatibilist.
Please correct me if I've misunderstood.
But I DO accept that we have a will, and even that it is in a certain sense free: That is, free to choose according to our inclinations. Here, a repeated description of HOW: If we are inclined against God, and choose against God according to our inclinations, from where do those inclinations come? By causes; and from where do those causes come? From other causes; etc etc all the way back to God. —Accepted or not, I have explained.
This is Romans 6:16
We are slaves of the one to whom we present ourselves.
We present ourselves.
What comes first in your opinion?
We present ourselves to a being and then serve that being by our actions...
or do we act in favor of that being and then present ourselves to him?
The being in mind would, of course, be either God or satan.
I believe we act in favor of that being before we even consciously decide to...
At some point, however, it does become our decision.
So the cause would be either God or satan?
In keeping with your claim that I never explained, I may as well, then, say that you have never explained HOW one chooses uncaused.
I believe we are free agents...able to decide with no coercion from outside forces.
I believe every decision we make has reasons and we are affected by our belief and moral system,
but the decision is ours and is not caused by either God or satan.
We choose whom we wish to serve.
Romans...we present OURSELVES.
Romans 12:1 Present YOURSELVES as a living sacrifice.
Again, we present ourselves...
No coercion, only influences that do guide our choice.
We can be influenced by the teaching of our parents, or yes, even by God.
But God would not be causing my choice.
By the way, contrary to what you seem to assume here, ALL choices are moral choices.
How?
Not every choice is moral...
Whether I want to buy a red car or a blue car has nothing to do with morality.
My definition of 'early church' was the New Testament church, and my meaning by 'free will' was uncaused free will. Again: The fact that the Bible is replete with choosing and even choices being exhorted or demanded, and with mentions and demonstrations of the will, does not imply that the will is uncaused.
Of course I have to accept what you believe to be the early church.
In scholarly circles however (of which I don't take part) the early church means at about 100AD or, at least, after 70AD.
There was no early church before that - Christians worshipped with their Jewish counter-parts in the synogague.
Again, why give someone a choice, if it has already been made for them?
In Deuteronomy 29:29 God is mad (according to the people) because they forsook the covenant God had made with their fathers when God brought them out of the land of Egypt. The people went and served other gods, so God was angry and brought curses onto the land.
Here's my question:
God made a Covenant with Moses. It was a conditional covenant, bilateral - between God and man.
If God makes a CONDITIONAL covenant with man...a covenant with blessings if obeyed, and curses if not obeyed...
how could man's decision possibly go back to God?
It wouldn't make any sense and God is a reasonable God.
How did the decision of the Israelites to make the golden calf go back to God?
Contrary to UNCAUSED free will:
Philippians 2:13 "...for it is God who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
Side note: the NIV says, "...for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."
Phil 2:13 is a good verse for what you believe.
But if you read just a couple of verses before, Paul is telling the Philippians to work to show their salvation:
Philippians 2:12-16
12Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear.
13For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.
14Do everything without complaining and arguing, 15so that no one can criticize you. Live clean, innocent lives as children of God, shining like bright lights in a world full of crooked and perverse people. 16Hold firmly to the word of life;
Wouldn't you say that this is the work of the Holy Spirit?
We must work to show our good deeds, the result of our salvation (as Jesus asked us to do, Mat 25)
and the Holy Spirit specifically helps us toward that goal by desire and power.
John 16:7 Jesus tells the Apostles that the Spirit will convict of sin, He will be our HELPER.
No coercion here either...
Ephesians 4:28-29
23Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes. 24Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy.
25So stop telling lies. Let us tell our neighbors the truth, for we are all parts of the same body. 26And “don’t sin by letting anger control you.” Don’t let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27for anger gives a foothold to the devil.
28If you are a thief, quit stealing. Instead, use your hands for good hard work, and then give generously to others in need. 29Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them.
30And do not bring sorrow to God’s Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own,e guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.
31Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of evil behavior. 32Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.
We're told above to allow the Holy Spirit to renew us,
To PUT ON the Holy Spirit,
To follow the rules Paul is giving,
and to not anger the Holy Spirit - which means that we could.
I see total freedom here with no outside coercion.
Ephesians 2: "1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Not sure of your point...
If, at the moment I choose, my preference is vanilla ice cream, why does it need to be an UNCAUSED preference, for me to have chosen?
What
caused you to choose vanilla -
except for the fact that you like it better than a different flavor?
GodsGrace101 said:
"When you leave your house in the morning, you believe everything is already planned out.
It's kind of unreal.
Mark Quayle said:
When I leave my house in the morning, indeed when I get up in the morning and when I lie down, God's decree is a solid comfort to me, that I can never lose him nor can he lose me, except by HIS own decree. I can DEPEND on his mercy and justice, and not on my own silly efforts.
Apparently, since you [seem to] think that God's decree and our choice are mutually exclusive, you also expect me to think I have no choice. I've been trying to explain over and over, "Not so! I do have choice. We do choose. In fact, if it was not for God's decree, in his very act of creation, I would not even exist, nevermind to be able to choose! It is by his decree that my choices are established!"
Right!
If God DECREES your choice....
You don't have a choice!
Seems really easy to understand...
You have this first cause idea...
But it's the same.
If God causes your choice by going all the way back...
you have no choice.
What did Jesus mean in the following?
John 7:16-17
16So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
17“If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
Is God ultimately causing the above too?
IF anyone IS WILLING...
Sounds like libertarian free will to me.
Mark Quayle said:
I assume that by, "creating our own reality", you mean, if reality is not produced as we do what we do —i.e. as time progresses? I guess the quick and easy answer is to ask, "who is the greater being here, the greater cause —are we? Or is God?"
Because God knows something is going to happen,
does not mean He caused it to happen.
You are a calvinist, I believe.
Although you say you don't agree with that teaching.
I don't know. You were the one who said, "How is anything real if we're not creating our own reality?". What did you mean by that?
If we do NOT create our own reality --- our own day to day live,
it means we're in a computer game and have no worth at all except to carry out the orders of the initiator of the game.
I create my own reality because I decide what time to wake up, what time to leave the house, what time to eat.
You, OTOH, trust God in every little thing you do, stating that HE decides everything for you as He is the ultimate cause...so HE is creating your reality.
And you're just playing along like a robot or a chess piece.
You're just part of a game.
—As you, likewise, are repeating what you always say. I guess you had no comments about anything there I said. Oh well, at least (I think) it has been pretty well established here, that by "freewill", you mean what some call Libertarian Free Will, or UNCAUSED will and UNCAUSED choice. And since I have been repeating, I will repeat here: Uncaused will and uncaused choice are both logically and Biblically invalid notions.
LIbertarian free will is the only will spoken of in the bible.
Does choice denote free will or not?
And please consider the scripture I posted, as I did to yours.