This is an alternative to the view of Calvinism

[FutureAndAHope]

First I will summarize the view of salvation:

• Man is born into sin, and follows after the sin nature
• God reveals who He is to man, and calls man to turn from sin to Him
• Man either turns from sin to God, and receives enlightenment, and God’s assistance
• If man rejects God, he moves toward Spiritual blindness

I will summarize the view of God’s plan for man:

• God who cannot sin, does not create a plan that causes sin
• God knows that within the constraints He has made man may sin
• God who works all things together for good, works with in the fallen world to move things to a good outcome.
• Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.

Man is born into sin, and follows after the sin nature

It is true that man is at least influenced by evil. As Paul mentioned, man can desire to do good, but his flesh wars against that desire.

Rom 7:19-23 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



God reveals who He is to man, and calls man to turn from sin to Him

God sent His son into the world to give light to man, He gives this light to all men.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

We can become sons if we walk in the light He gives.

John 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light."

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness.



Man either turns from sin to God, and receives enlightenment, and God’s assistance

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.



John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.



If man rejects God, he moves toward Spiritual blindness

Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

God who cannot sin, does not create a plan that causes sin

James 1:13-17 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.



God knows that within the constraints He has made man may sin

Mat 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!



God who works all things together for God, works with in the fallen world to move things to a good outcome.



Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.



Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.

God sets boundaries on our lives, restrictions, so we can find Him.

Act 17:26-27 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;



God does not have perfect knowledge of our every choice, but plans around our choices.



Genesis 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."



The following is a case study to show this. In the Psalms King David wrote:

Psalms 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.

So we see that David says God had a plan written down for him in a book before he was formed in his mother womb. Which is not an uncommon thought. We also see of Jeremiah:

Jerimiah 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.



So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

King David, as an example, sinned by killing a man and taking the man’s wife to be his own.

2 Samuel 12:7-12 Then Nathan told David: You are that rich man! Now listen to what the LORD God of Israel says to you: "I chose you to be the king of Israel. I kept you safe from Saul and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. Why did you disobey me and do such a horrible thing? You murdered Uriah the Hittite by having the Ammonites kill him, so you could take his wife. "Because you wouldn't obey me and took Uriah's wife for yourself, your family will never live in peace. Someone from your own family will cause you a lot of trouble, and I will take your wives and give them to another man before your very eyes. He will go to bed with them while everyone looks on. What you did was in secret, but I will do this in the open for everyone in Israel to see."

So what are we looking for in this scripture? Three things, a) God said “I would have given you much more”, if David did not sin his pathway would have been blessed even more, b) God said “Because you wouldn't obey me” a curse came into his life, c) God saying “Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house,” (KJV), God changed David’s story.

So it is true that God assigns us a destiny “before we were born”, a Godly task to do, but if we obey, we will live, if we disobey we will have a curse. Our life is not set to one story, but is bound to our actions in response to God and other events.

Jerimiah 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Even Jeremiah had moments where he could have lost his calling.

Jerimiah 15:19 Then the LORD told me: Stop talking like a fool! If you turn back to me and speak my message, I will let you be my prophet once again. I hope the people of Judah will accept what you say. But you can ignore their threats.



The Early Church also preached free will of man, showing that man was not set to a fixed destiny.

Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Why do we need an alternative to the view of calvinism?
What you have posted is mainline Christianity.
It is calvinism that is an alternative to mainline Christianity !

 

[Neostarwcc]

Why do we need an alternative to the view of calvinism?
What you have posted is mainline Christianity.
It is calvinism that is an alternative to mainline Christianity !

Because people don't like Biblical truth and always try to make the Bible say whatever they want it to. Especially in these last days. Don't forget, for the first 400 years or so of Protestant history reformed theology was widely accepted as Biblical truth and was the majority view of Protestant Christians. Its only since the 19th century that the church divided and Arminianism is the majority view now.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Because people don't like Biblical truth and always try to make the Bible say whatever they want it to. Especially in these last days. Don't forget, for the first 400 years or so of Protestant history reformed theology was widely accepted as Biblical truth and was the majority view of Protestant Christians. Its only since the 19th century that the church divided and Arminianism is the majority view now.

I like to go back before the reformation 500 years go.
That's not when Christianity began.

It began right after Jesus resurrected and the early church had no belief in predestination or of God
doing the choosing.

This idea started, as you've said, 500 years ago, that alone makes me stop to consider how it could be true.

 

[BBAS 64]

I like to go back before the reformation 500 years go.
That's not when Christianity began.

It began right after Jesus resurrected and the early church had no belief in predestination or of God
doing the choosing.

This idea started, as you've said, 500 years ago, that alone makes me stop to consider how it could be true.

Good Day, GG101

I take it you have not read the 2 part series from 428-429 AD

A Teratise on Predestination and grace
By Aurelius Augustin, Bishop Of Hippo

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/pdf/augustine_predest.pdf

In Him,

Bill

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Good Day, GG101

I take it you have not read the 2 part series from 428-429 AD

A Teratise on Predestination and grace
By Aurelius Augustin, Bishop Of Hippo

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/pdf/augustine_predest.pdf

In Him,

Bill

The idea of Predestination was around at the time of the Early Church. But it was opposed by the Earliest Church Fathers. The following was written hundreds of years before Aurelius, and opposes the idea of Predestination. Note these people come shortly after the Apostles, not many hundreds of years latter, so are more likely to hold the true doctrine.

Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Also Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 [A.D. 120-202] shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We see this in all the Early Church Fathers.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

I really have no issue (generally) with any of this..

We do have the ability to choose and we exercise that ability "freely".. God of course has no restriction of freedom ( as there is nothing he can not control... we are limited.

The will of man is not with out external and internal restrictions. The will is not free it follows along with the desires of the creature... see "Edwards on Freedom of the will"

A heart that is continually wickedness and loves darkness influences the will to choice those types of things and the will does and does so freely without fail it makes that choice. The will is informed by the heart which is the seed of all desires wicked heart wicked desires.

The unregenerate man will always choose the darkness he loves and does so freely.

The 1689 LBC states it like this:

CHAP. IX. Of Free Will.

1. God hath indued the Will of Man, with that natural liberty, and power of acting upon choice; that it is 169neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil. 2. Man in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power, to will, and to do that 170which was good, and well-pleasing to God; but yet 171was mutable, so that he might fall from it. 3. Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost 172all ability of Will, to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, 173and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength, to 174convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto. 4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of Grace 175he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone, enables him 176freely to will, and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his 177remaining corruptions he doth not perfectly nor only will that which is good; but doth also will that which is evil. 5. The Will of Man is made 178perfectly, and immutably free to good alone, in the state of Glory only.

166 Joh. 1.18. 167 Col. 1.21. Gal. 5.17. 168 Joh. 16.8. Ps. 110.3. Luk. 1.74.75. 169 Mat. 17.12. Jam. 1 14. Deut. 30.19. 170 Eccl. 7.29. 171 Gen. 3.6. 172 Rom. 5.6. ch. 8.7. 173 Eph. 2.1.5. 174 Tit. 3 3,4,5. Joh. 6.44. 175 Col. 1.13. Joh. 8.36. 176 Phil. 2.13. 177 Rom. 7.15.18,19 21.23. 178 Eph. 4.13.



Of Gods Decree.

1. God hath 52Decreed in himself from all Eternity, by the most wise and holy Councel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things whatsoever comes to passe; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin, 53nor hath fellowship with any therein, nor is violence offered to the will of the Creature, nor yet is the liberty, or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather 54established, in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power, and faithfulness 55in accomplishing his Decree. 2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may, or can come to passe upon all 56 supposed conditions; yet hath he not Decreed anything, 57because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. 3. By the decree of God for the manifestation of his glory 58some men and Angels, are predestinated, or fore-ordained to Eternal Life, through Jesus Christ to the 59 praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their 60just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. 48

1 Joh. 5.7. Mat. 28.19. 2 Cor. 13.14. 49 Exod. 3.14. Joh. 14.11. 1 Cor. 8.6. 50 Joh. 1.14.18. 51 Joh. 15.26. Gal. 4.6. 52 Is. 46.10. Eph. 1.11. Heb. 6.17. Rom. 9.15,18. 53 Jam. 1.15,17. 1 Joh. 1.5. 54 Act 4.27,28. Joh. 19.11. 55 Numb. 23.19. Eph. 1.3,4,5. 56 Act. 15.18. 57 Rom. 9.11.13.16.18. 58 1 Tim. 5.21. Mat. 25.41. 59 Eph. 1.5,6. 60 Rom. 9.22,23. Jud. 4

In Him,

Bill

 

[GodsGrace101]

Good Day, GG101

I take it you have not read the 2 part series from 428-429 AD

A Teratise on Predestination and grace
By Aurelius Augustin, Bishop Of Hippo

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/pdf/augustine_predest.pdf

In Him,

Bill

Augustine of Hippo is not considered an Early Church Father by most theologians.
Things had already started to change by the time he came along in the 5th century.

If you're knowledgeable about him, you'll know that he was a manachaen for over 10 years.
This is a gnostic sect that tried to invade Christianity (as gnosticism did from the beginning) but was not able to do so.
He was very much affected by their teachings.

His idea was not shared by the ECF's, whose time ended, in most opinions, about 325AD at the council of Nicea.

In any case, he did not believe in double predestination as John Calvin did.

Predestination was not known in the early church.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The unregenerate man will always choose the darkness he loves and does so freely.

3. Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost 172all ability of Will, to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, 173and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength, to 174convert himself;

This is the exact opposite of what Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) and Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 are stating.

The very first sentence from Justin Martyr clarifies what he is speaking of, he said:

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain.

He is saying just because God speaks saying certain things have been foretold before, there is no fatalism, or fixedness, about it, he then goes on to show we have genuine free will.

The same is true with Irenaeus, ending his text by saying:

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

They are both fighting a fatalistic view of God, one where God decrees who is saved and not. They say even "faith" is under man's own power. I have read many other parts of their doctrine, and it is all fighting the idea that man has no genuine free will in regard to salvation. They believe in free will choice leading to salvation.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

There is an alternative to Calvinism, that is free grace.

 

[Mark Quayle]

First I will summarize the view of salvation:

• Man is born into sin, and follows after the sin nature
• God reveals who He is to man, and calls man to turn from sin to Him
• Man either turns from sin to God, and receives enlightenment, and God’s assistance
• If man rejects God, he moves toward Spiritual blindness

I will summarize the view of God’s plan for man:

• God who cannot sin, does not create a plan that causes sin
• God knows that within the constraints He has made man may sin
• God who works all things together for good, works with in the fallen world to move things to a good outcome.
• Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.

Man is born into sin, and follows after the sin nature

It is true that man is at least influenced by evil. As Paul mentioned, man can desire to do good, but his flesh wars against that desire.

Rom 7:19-23 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



God reveals who He is to man, and calls man to turn from sin to Him

God sent His son into the world to give light to man, He gives this light to all men.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

We can become sons if we walk in the light He gives.

John 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light."

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness.



Man either turns from sin to God, and receives enlightenment, and God’s assistance

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.



John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.



If man rejects God, he moves toward Spiritual blindness

Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

God who cannot sin, does not create a plan that causes sin

James 1:13-17 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.



God knows that within the constraints He has made man may sin

Mat 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!



God who works all things together for God, works with in the fallen world to move things to a good outcome.



Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.



Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.

God sets boundaries on our lives, restrictions, so we can find Him.

Act 17:26-27 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;



God does not have perfect knowledge of our every choice, but plans around our choices.



Genesis 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."



The following is a case study to show this. In the Psalms King David wrote:

Psalms 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.

So we see that David says God had a plan written down for him in a book before he was formed in his mother womb. Which is not an uncommon thought. We also see of Jeremiah:

Jerimiah 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.



So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

King David, as an example, sinned by killing a man and taking the man’s wife to be his own.

2 Samuel 12:7-12 Then Nathan told David: You are that rich man! Now listen to what the LORD God of Israel says to you: "I chose you to be the king of Israel. I kept you safe from Saul and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. Why did you disobey me and do such a horrible thing? You murdered Uriah the Hittite by having the Ammonites kill him, so you could take his wife. "Because you wouldn't obey me and took Uriah's wife for yourself, your family will never live in peace. Someone from your own family will cause you a lot of trouble, and I will take your wives and give them to another man before your very eyes. He will go to bed with them while everyone looks on. What you did was in secret, but I will do this in the open for everyone in Israel to see."

So what are we looking for in this scripture? Three things, a) God said “I would have given you much more”, if David did not sin his pathway would have been blessed even more, b) God said “Because you wouldn't obey me” a curse came into his life, c) God saying “Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house,” (KJV), God changed David’s story.

So it is true that God assigns us a destiny “before we were born”, a Godly task to do, but if we obey, we will live, if we disobey we will have a curse. Our life is not set to one story, but is bound to our actions in response to God and other events.

Jerimiah 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Even Jeremiah had moments where he could have lost his calling.

Jerimiah 15:19 Then the LORD told me: Stop talking like a fool! If you turn back to me and speak my message, I will let you be my prophet once again. I hope the people of Judah will accept what you say. But you can ignore their threats.



The Early Church also preached free will of man, showing that man was not set to a fixed destiny.

Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

So, once again, you affirm the self-contradictory notion that mere chance has causative ability.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So, once again, you affirm the self-contradictory notion that mere chance has causative ability.

I think God puts constraints around man's stories, so man can have free will, yet be directed enough that man is not out of control. Think of it like a book where God writes down the pathways for man, but man's choices will determine, which outcome comes to pass. God writes the stories in such a way that certain things are fixed, and others flexible. God never plans a pathway that includes sin (for God can not be tempted to sin), yet where He encounters a situation where it may occur, He plans for a good outcome to come out of even that situation, knowing however that man may lead himself to destruction. Limiting God to linear causation makes God less interesting, and less powerful, and accuses Him of evil and hateful doings.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Let's have a look at what faith is.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

God can not be seen with 100% clarity, but faith puts trust in God even without that clarity.

Heb 11:2-3 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.


Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

Abel's gifts were accepted by God, for he chose to have faith in God, thus gifting God with his possessions.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "AND WAS NOT FOUND, BECAUSE GOD HAD TAKEN HIM"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch, testimony was that he pleased God. His faith in God caused him to want to please God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

God rewards those who "diligently seek Him".

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Who are "moved with godly fear".

Heb 11:8-10 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Those who obey.


Heb 11:11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.

God gives the promise of faith, we please God when we put trust in that promise and diligently seek Him.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

The Holy Spirit is not given to random sinners, who God just "chooses to redeem". It is given to those who see the promise of sins forgiven, even the very late promise, after a lifetime of sins, like the thief on the cross, and receive it, those who are thankful, those who choose to fear God like Noah, those who obey like Abraham. Those who know God require their repentance from sins receive it, fight for it, and live it, not loving their own lives.

Heb 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

 

[GodsGrace101]

First I will summarize the view of salvation:

• Man is born into sin, and follows after the sin nature
• God reveals who He is to man, and calls man to turn from sin to Him
• Man either turns from sin to God, and receives enlightenment, and God’s assistance
• If man rejects God, he moves toward Spiritual blindness

I will summarize the view of God’s plan for man:

• God who cannot sin, does not create a plan that causes sin
• God knows that within the constraints He has made man may sin
• God who works all things together for good, works with in the fallen world to move things to a good outcome.
• Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.

Man is born into sin, and follows after the sin nature

It is true that man is at least influenced by evil. As Paul mentioned, man can desire to do good, but his flesh wars against that desire.

Rom 7:19-23 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



God reveals who He is to man, and calls man to turn from sin to Him

God sent His son into the world to give light to man, He gives this light to all men.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

We can become sons if we walk in the light He gives.

John 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light."

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness.



Man either turns from sin to God, and receives enlightenment, and God’s assistance

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.



John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.



If man rejects God, he moves toward Spiritual blindness

Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

God who cannot sin, does not create a plan that causes sin

James 1:13-17 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.



God knows that within the constraints He has made man may sin

Mat 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!



God who works all things together for God, works with in the fallen world to move things to a good outcome.



Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.



Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.

God sets boundaries on our lives, restrictions, so we can find Him.

Act 17:26-27 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;



God does not have perfect knowledge of our every choice, but plans around our choices.



Genesis 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."



The following is a case study to show this. In the Psalms King David wrote:

Psalms 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.

So we see that David says God had a plan written down for him in a book before he was formed in his mother womb. Which is not an uncommon thought. We also see of Jeremiah:

Jerimiah 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.



So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

King David, as an example, sinned by killing a man and taking the man’s wife to be his own.

2 Samuel 12:7-12 Then Nathan told David: You are that rich man! Now listen to what the LORD God of Israel says to you: "I chose you to be the king of Israel. I kept you safe from Saul and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. Why did you disobey me and do such a horrible thing? You murdered Uriah the Hittite by having the Ammonites kill him, so you could take his wife. "Because you wouldn't obey me and took Uriah's wife for yourself, your family will never live in peace. Someone from your own family will cause you a lot of trouble, and I will take your wives and give them to another man before your very eyes. He will go to bed with them while everyone looks on. What you did was in secret, but I will do this in the open for everyone in Israel to see."

So what are we looking for in this scripture? Three things, a) God said “I would have given you much more”, if David did not sin his pathway would have been blessed even more, b) God said “Because you wouldn't obey me” a curse came into his life, c) God saying “Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house,” (KJV), God changed David’s story.

So it is true that God assigns us a destiny “before we were born”, a Godly task to do, but if we obey, we will live, if we disobey we will have a curse. Our life is not set to one story, but is bound to our actions in response to God and other events.

Jerimiah 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Even Jeremiah had moments where he could have lost his calling.

Jerimiah 15:19 Then the LORD told me: Stop talking like a fool! If you turn back to me and speak my message, I will let you be my prophet once again. I hope the people of Judah will accept what you say. But you can ignore their threats.



The Early Church also preached free will of man, showing that man was not set to a fixed destiny.

Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

When I first replied to the above, I forgot to tell you what a great post it is,,,much work put into it.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

When I first replied to the above, I forgot to tell you what a great post it is,,,much work put into it.

Thank you for the positive comment, it is certainly a topic I have put much thought into. There is still much to learn however, things that are still not yet known to me.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Thank you for the positive comment, it is certainly a topic I have put much thought into. There is still much to learn however, things that are still not yet known to me.

Do you believe that man has free will?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Do you believe that man has free will?

Yes, I do believe man has free will. I have always believed man has free will. It was only after encountering the doctrine of Calvinism that I had to look into the topic in a formal way. Fortunately for my view, it has the support of the Earliest Church Fathers (living in the 100 ADs, close to the apostles who wrote the bible), who all believed in 100% free will. The Bible as a whole also presents the idea of righteousness leading to life, and sin to death, that our choices are important.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. (Cont.)

Chap. LXXXVIII. — Christ Has Not Received the Holy Spirit on Account of Poverty.

For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.

That is only a small quote, there are volumes written on free will by the Early Church Fathers, in fact, much clearer quotes than that one, but they are very long passages.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes, I do believe man has free will. I have always believed man has free will. It was only after encountering the doctrine of Calvinism that I had to look into the topic in a formal way. Fortunately for my view, it has the support of the Earliest Church Fathers (living in the 100 ADs, close to the apostles who wrote the bible), who all believed in 100% free will. The Bible as a whole also presents the idea of righteousness leading to life, and sin to death, that our choices are important.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. (Cont.)

Chap. LXXXVIII. — Christ Has Not Received the Holy Spirit on Account of Poverty.

For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.

That is only a small quote, there are volumes written on free will by the Early Church Fathers, in fact, much clearer quotes than that one, but they are very long passages.

I have two comments:

1. I also like the ECFs. I'll go up to about 325AD and then I don't use them anymore because things changed too much.
I was wondering what source you use. I have David Bercots book A DICTIONARY OF EARLY CHIRSTIAN BELIEFS.
It's very limited. I can't find the 10 volume set over here. Maybe Amazon.it has it. I wonder if it has an index like Bercot's book has?
It goes by subject matter.

2. If you DO believe that man has free will, which of course he has and only the gnostics believed man did not have free will, then I'd like to make a comment regarding your OP: You said this:

So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

And a little before that, you said this:

Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.


I'm not sure how you mean that.
What I'd say is that God does have a big, general plan - we don't know for sure what it is beyond what the bible tells us,
for instance, that the day will come when all this will end, the evil one will be done away with, and the New Jerusalem will
be on earth with all the resurrected persons that obeyed God.

So, God has a plan,
but man still has free will,
but somehow God will work out the plan to His satisfaction.

I think what YOU'RE talking about is our own personal plan.
I believe God plans good deeds/works for those that love and obey Him...
I don't think I'd say that He plans out our life - but that it depends on what choices we make.
(not sure that's what you're saying).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

1. I also like the ECFs. I'll go up to about 325AD and then I don't use them anymore because things changed too much.
I was wondering what source you use. I have David Bercots book A DICTIONARY OF EARLY CHIRSTIAN BELIEFS.
It's very limited. I can't find the 10 volume set over here. Maybe Amazon.it has it. I wonder if it has an index like Bercot's book has?
It goes by subject matter.

I use software called e-sword, it is free to download and use. You can add the Early Church Fathers to the reference library section for free. It is the whole documents presented as they were written.

So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

And a little before that, you said this:

Although God plans our stories, no one story is fixed, the choices of man impact how things turn out.

There are a few reasons I say this, primarily because the bible says the following:

Jer 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.

Psa 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.

Acts 17:26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

It states God has a book written for us before we were born, a plan for us. I believe that the reason that this happens is so that things don't spiral out of control, there is a degree of fixedness to our lives. God plans for good but allows for man's failings with in the stories.

There was actually a young lady who fasted and went off both food and water. God took her to heaven and showed her "our books", hers specifically. She said each of us has a positive story from God, but she also said that how we act determines if our story plays out or comes to pass. How we act affects us and others. Now whether she meant it has only the positive stories or all of them I don't know.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I use software called e-sword, it is free to download and use. You can add the Early Church Fathers to the reference library section for free. It is the whole documents presented as they were written.


There are a few reasons I say this, primarily because the bible says the following:

Jer 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.

The above is specific and not to be taken generally for all of humanity.

Psa 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.

Psalms are poems.
It's how the writer feels about God - which is how we all feel about Him.
Jesus never spoke of any book although John did.
Even if the days were recorded...God did not predestine them, but only recorded them since He knew what the choices of the writer would be.

Acts 17:26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Acts 17:26-27 NLT
From one man he created all the nations throughout the whole earth. He decided beforehand when they should rise and fall, and he determined their boundaries.

It states God has a book written for us before we were born, a plan for us. I believe that the reason that this happens is so that things don't spiral out of control, there is a degree of fixedness to our lives. God plans for good but allows for man's failings with in the stories.

This is very close to determinism/calvinism.
God FOREKNEW what we would do...
He did not PLAN it.
If God PLANNED, then it certainly would have come about...
As did the Prophet in the verse above, Jeremiah 1:5

There was actually a young lady who fasted and went off both food and water. God took her to heaven and showed her "our books", hers specifically. She said each of us has a positive story from God, but she also said that how we act determines if our story plays out or comes to pass. How we act affects us and others. Now whether she meant it has only the positive stories or all of them I don't know.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Yes. We are created for good works.
As to the story of the young lady...
there are so many of these stories.
I tend to not pay too much attention to them since Jesus was God's ultimate revelation.