This is an alternative to the view of Calvinism

FutureAndAHope

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I will try again, from a different tack: Where do you get the notion that he was CHOSEN from that verse? Then tell me how being CHOSEN was a result of "his obedience to God's call", as you put it.
He was chosen, I believe, because God saw something in Abraham worth putting trust in, as we see with Noah and Cornelius. Abraham proved trustworthy, or righteous, when he believed God, and acted by leaving his homeland. Ture belief results in actions, these actions are what I term as obedience. If Abraham had not believed God, or acted disobediently, he would never have been the father of God's people. Actions are important to see God's call fulfilled. It is not following a set of rules to become righteous but believing God in what He has revealed to each generation.
 
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Mark Quayle

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He was chosen, I believe, because God saw something in Abraham worth putting trust in, as we see with Noah and Cornelius. Abraham proved trustworthy, or righteous, when he believed God, and acted by leaving his homeland. Ture belief results in actions, these actions are what I term as obedience. If Abraham had not believed God, or acted disobediently, he would never have been the father of God's people. Actions are important to see God's call fulfilled. It is not following a set of rules to become righteous but believing God in what He has revealed to each generation.
So it is by Abraham's virtue that God saved him. Is this also the same for us nowadays?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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So it is by Abraham's virtue that God saved him. Is this also the same for us nowadays?
Can a Christian be:
  • an adulterer
  • a fornicator
  • etc
The answer is clearly no. Our virtue shows that we are Gods. Virtue endears us to God, no matter how wicked our past has been.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

The wicked must still consider, and change, repent.

Eze 18:28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Repentance is a virtue. The one who has no repentance is not Gods.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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So it is by Abraham's virtue that God saved him. Is this also the same for us nowadays?
The call of God, is separate to the saving grace of God. Noah was called of God due to his virtue. We are saved by grace, even the worst sinner who repents can be saved.

2Ti 2:19-21 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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In regard to the call of God. As we see with Noah, Cornelius, and David. It is because of the heart.

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

This is "generally" the rule of scripture. One notable exception is Jacob and Esau.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, "JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED."

Who were chosen in this way purely by God's choice. Yet this again is the "Call" of God, which again is separate from salvation. As we also see in this quote from the Church Fathers. Who saw this as a prediction of two nations, not individual salvation.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.)
Book IV. (Cont.)
Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.

2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”
 
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Mark Quayle

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Can a Christian be:
  • an adulterer
  • a fornicator
  • etc
The answer is clearly no. Our virtue shows that we are Gods. Virtue endears us to God, no matter how wicked our past has been.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

The wicked must still consider, and change, repent.

Eze 18:28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Repentance is a virtue. The one who has no repentance is not Gods.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
Clearly the answer to WHAT is "no"? To the question you brought up, of whether a Christian can be a fornicator, and adulterer etc? Or to the question I asked, "So it [according to what you say] is by Abraham's virtue that God saved him. Is this also the same for us nowadays?" You aren't specific. But the rest of your post seems to continue with the notion that it is by our virtue that God saves us.

Meanwhile, I still can't find where you back up the notion that God's choice of Abraham was a result of his obedience. Maybe I missed something.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The call of God, is separate to the saving grace of God. Noah was called of God due to his virtue. We are saved by grace, even the worst sinner who repents can be saved.

2Ti 2:19-21 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
Well, I guess I'll have to accept this for an answer to whether you really meant it, that Abraham was chosen of God because of his obedience. You said here, "Noah was called of God due to his virtue." Now, can you please back these up with Scripture? First you said "...Abraham was in turn chosen due to his obedience to God's call." So you make Election a result of man's work. Now you say, "Noah was called of God due to his virtue."

Both sound very much the same to me. You seem to be sincere with the claim that God chooses according to one's obedience, or worse, something along the lines of 'according to the spark of goodness he finds in some of them —virtue in and of oneself— apart from the work of God'. Can you show me how God's election of anyone is a result of their innate goodness? I mean, (and here, I'm giving you an out), even Arminianism claims God works 'prevenient grace' prior to anyone having any goodness in them. I'm not specifically asking about salvation by works at the moment. I'm just asking for clarification on the notion that God looks forward in time and sees who by chance is worth choosing for salvation.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Well, I guess I'll have to accept this for an answer to whether you really meant it, that Abraham was chosen of God because of his obedience. You said here, "Noah was called of God due to his virtue." Now, can you please back these up with Scripture? First you said "...Abraham was in turn chosen due to his obedience to God's call." So you make Election a result of man's work. Now you say, "Noah was called of God due to his virtue."

Noah found favor with the LORD, due to his difference from the sinners of his day. Being a "preacher of righteousness", and "moved by Godly fear"


2Pe 2:4-8 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Both sound very much the same to me. You seem to be sincere with the claim that God chooses according to one's obedience, or worse, something along the lines of 'according to the spark of goodness he finds in some of them —virtue in and of oneself— apart from the work of God'. Can you show me how God's election of anyone is a result of their innate goodness? I mean, (and here, I'm giving you an out), even Arminianism claims God works 'prevenient grace' prior to anyone having any goodness in them. I'm not specifically asking about salvation by works at the moment. I'm just asking for clarification on the notion that God looks forward in time and sees who by chance is worth choosing for salvation.


Which part of "obey" or "obedience" do you not understand?

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

It is not about virtue in man, but God restoring it through His instruction.

Ecc 7:29 Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes."

Man starts out dark => God gives light => man chooses to accept or reject the light => man walks in the light or stays in the dark. The choice results in salvation or damnation.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Noah found favor with the LORD, due to his difference from the sinners of his day. Being a "preacher of righteousness", and "moved by Godly fear"
It does not say he found favor with the Lord, as a result of his difference from the sinners. I doesn't say how he found favor.
Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

It is not about virtue in man, but God restoring it through His instruction.

Ecc 7:29 Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes."

Man starts out dark => God gives light => man chooses to accept or reject the light => man walks in the light or stays in the dark. The choice results in salvation or damnation.
Well, it's good to see you think it's not about virtue in man. Your past posts made it seem it's all about that. God looking to see what's going to happen and then predestining it to happen. Everything depending on the choices man makes.
 
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