This generation

[DavidPT]

The text makes it clear, though.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:32-34

There’s no real way to read this any other way. The second person plurals indicates that He was intending for His audience to understand He was talking about them.

Prove that with Mark 13:37 as well.

Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

[claninja]

Thanks. Even so, this generation in Matthew 24 is the generation of saints who would go through the tribulation and great tribulation Jesus had just told them about, and from verse 9 of Matthew 24 the passage is joined together by the words "and"; "therefore"; "but"; "for" and "because".

It's the great tribulation of the saints that they would face in a day when they had become hated by all nations for His names' sake (verses 9; 21-22; 29-31). Jesus said that at that time (toteh) many will skandalizo (fall away) and will betray and hate one another, and because lawlessness will abound, the love of many saints will grow cold.

The evidence for the last days mentioned in Hebrews 1:1-3 being a reference to the 40 years in-between the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ and the destruction of the Temple in A.D 70 is good, but aside from the Lord's statement at the beginning of the Olivet Discourse regarding the Temple, only Luke 21:20-24 says anything about what would befall the Jews at Jerusalem.

.. and the Greek word naos is never used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem following the verses talking about the tearing of the veil (and only used for the church and the temple in heaven) (whereas the word hieron is used in reference to the Jerusalem temple after the tearing of the veil). This shows clearly that the temple that the man of sin would seat himself up in is the church, and the same goes for the holy city and temple mentioned in Revelation 11:1-2.

.. and regardless of the evidence to the contrary, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 is interpreted by Preterists and Partial Preterists as speaking about the temple in Jerusalem, and used as proof texts for what Preterism and Partial Preterism claims (no difference there between them and Dispensational Premillennialists, except for the timing of events),

So I err on the side of caution with regard to which generation is meant that Jesus said would experience the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9-31, due to a lack of evidence that it's talking about the 1st century only, and no one else.

I said caution because Matthew 24 remains for me a passage that is extremely difficult to place in "time".

The great tribulation is a reference to the great wrath and days of vengeance that was to occur on Jerusalem at the destruction of the temple. The disciples’ generation experienced that.

 

[rwb]

Not sure what your talking about here. The word that is singular in Matthew 1:1 is genesos. This is a different word than genea.

genesos is not used in Matthew 24:34. Genea is.

There is only one natural/native generation (seed) originating from Abraham, who are called Israel. It doesn't matter that there have been many generations born as native/natural seed of Abraham, all are Israel. As long as Israel exists on the earth that native/natural generation has not passed away. I believe this is what Christ means when He says "this generation" shall not pass away until all these things have been fuflilled.

 

[Zao is life]

What I have to wonder, since both of the following Greek words seem to basically mean the same thing, taute and houtos, which is translated as 'this' in 'this generation, why only in the OD did Jesus used the Greek word houtos, but every other place when He spoke of this generation, He used the Greek word taute?

For example.

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this(taute) generation.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This(houtos) generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In my Strong's Greek Dictionary the adjective for generation in Matthew 23:36 is houtos?

 

[rwb]

The great tribulation is a reference to the great wrath and days of vengeance that was to occur on Jerusalem at the destruction of the temple. The disciples’ generation experienced that.

One could argue that what they experienced was the wrath of God He promised would be poured upon them because they had become an abomination in His sight. They would be used as an example to all who came after them.

 

[Zao is life]

"Shall see" in Mt 24:15 doesn't always mean physical sight. The Greek word εἴδω defined here as see may also mean be aware or understand. Consider the following:

Matthew 2:16 (KJV) Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

Herod didn't literally see the wise men had mocked him, but he understood they had.

Matthew 4:16 (KJV) The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

At His coming Christ gave light where before there was only darkness. The people who understand don't see literally His light.

Many "shall see" (have understanding) abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. This is seen/understood to have happen not only in the Holy Temple still standing in Jerusalem, but also in the universal church. Both entities, once considered to be holy places of God became/become an abomination to God as they apostatize and turn away from Him. Then they cease to be considered the holy place of God.

Why Judea? Why flee Judea? How about New York? London? Elon Musk City on Mars?

 

[Zao is life]

One could argue that what they experienced was the wrath of God He promised would be poured upon them because they had become an abomination in His sight. They would be used as an example to all who came after them.

That's just a false claim Claninja makes. Wrath is only mentioned when the armies gather around Jerusalem (Luke 21:20-24). The entire context of the rest of Luke and Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is talking about the tribulation and great tribulation of the saints.

People ignore context where and when it pleases them.

 

[claninja]

Yes, they did.

great, then if we agree on how “generation” is defined, how did the apostles’ generation is only experience part of it, while another generation experiences a future part of it?

1. Did the man of sin seat himself up in the church (naos)? The Greek word naos stops being used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem in the verses talking about the tearing of the veil. From then on it's referring only the the church and the temple in heaven.

as a partial preterist, I’m not dogmatic about this, whether the literal temple or body of Christ is in view here. I think both sides can be argued well. I typically lean toward body of Christ, and that term “sitting in the temple” is just a phrase for false messiah.

regardless, the man of sin was already working according to the powers of Satan in the first century, as lawlessness was already at work, AND the man of sins revealing was then being restrained.

e Revelation never refers to Babylon the Great as the holy city.
3. Aside from Revelation 11:2, the Revelation refers to New Jerusalem as the holy city three more times.

4. Why would Revelation 11:1-2 use the Greek word naos for temple if it's referring to the temple in Jerusalem, when all other verses in the Revelation use that word in reference to the heavenly temple only, and that word is never again used for the temple in Jerusalem following the verses that talk about the tearing of the veil?

Jerusalem was still referred to as holy, even after Christ rose from the dead, according to Matthew. So I’m not following your argument.

Matthew 27:53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

In regards to revelation 11:1-2, it doesn’t say the temple is trampled. It only says the outer court and city are trampled by the nations.

 

[DavidPT]

In my Strong's Greek Dictionary the adjective for generation in Matthew 23:36 is houtos?

The Strong's I'm using might have typos then. It's a software version and when I click on the word 'this' in verse 36, the following is the result.

5026
tauth
taute
tow'-tay,
tauten tow'-tane, and tautes tow'-tace dative case, accusative case and genitive case respectively of the feminine singular of outoV - houtos 3778; (towards or of) this:--her, + hereof, it, that, + thereby, the (same), this (same).

 

[claninja]

There is only one natural/native generation (seed) originating from Abraham, who are called Israel. It doesn't matter that there have been many generations born as native/natural seed of Abraham, all are Israel. As long as Israel exists on the earth that native/natural generation has not passed away. I believe this is what Christ means when He says "this generation" shall not pass away until all these things have been fuflilled.

genea is never used to mean throughout history or time. Its used for contemporaries. You can’t just change the definition of a word to fit your presupposition.

 

[Zao is life]

great, then if we agree on how “generation” is defined, how the apostles’ generation is only experience part of it, while another generation experiences a future part of it?




as a partial preterist, I’m not dogmatic about this, whether the literal temple or body of Christ is in view here. I think both sides can be argued well. I typically lean toward body of Christ, and that term “sitting in the temple” is just a phrase for false messiah.

regardless, the man of sin was already working according to the powers of Satan in the first century, as lawlessness was already at work, AND the man of sins revealing was then being restrained.




Jerusalem was still referred to as holy, even after Christ rose from the dead, according to Matthew. So I’m not following your argument.

Matthew 27:53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

In regards to revelation 11:1-2, it doesn’t say the temple is trampled. It only says the outer court and city are trampled by the nations.

Revelation 11:2 says the holy city will be trampled and in accordance with the Revelation's use of the words holy city, it's talking about New Jerusalem - not the physical city located only in one spot.

 

[claninja]

That's just a false claim Claninja makes. Wrath is only mentioned when the armies gather around Jerusalem (Luke 21:20-24). The entire context of the rest of Luke and Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is talking about the tribulation and great tribulation of the saints.

People ignore context where and when it pleases them.

the context of the great Tribulation is Jerusalem

Matthew 24:15-21
15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’adescribed by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

 

[claninja]

Revelation 11:2 says the holy city will be trampled and in accordance with the Revelation's use of the words holy city, it's talking about New Jerusalem - not the physical city located only in one spot.

addresses nothing in my post.

 

[rwb]

Why Judea? Why flee Judea? How about New York? London? Elon Musk City on Mars?

They were His audience. But the prophesy is clearly not limited to those living in Judea of the first century after Christ. "This generation", the natural/native Israel are fairly well dispersed throughout the world.

 

[claninja]

What I have to wonder, since both of the following Greek words seem to basically mean the same thing, taute and houtos, which is translated as 'this' in 'this generation, why only in the OD did Jesus used the Greek word houtos, but every other place when He spoke of this generation, He used the Greek word taute?

For example.

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this(taute) generation.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This(houtos) generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I believe Depending on how genea is formed will determine whether taute or haute is used.

 

[Zao is life]

@claninja @DavidPT @Hammster @rwb
DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE AND FALSE PROPHETS

From Josephus, “The War of the Jews” Book 6, Chapter 5, Section 2 & 3:-

QUOTE
The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children, and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand. But before Caesar had determined any thing about these people, or given the commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his life.

A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance.

Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.
UNQUOTE
A star resembling a sword to some may resemble a cross.

In the last days before the destruction of the temple:

From Josephus, “The War of the Jews” Book 6, Chapter 5, Section 3:-

CHARIOTS AND TROOPS OF SOLDIERS IN THEIR ARMOUR WERE SEEN RUNNING ABOUT AMONG THE CLOUDS, AND SURROUNDING CITIES.

QUOTE
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
UNQUOTE

No comment. Just putting it out there because Josephus wrote it into his history, and he lived during that time.

 

[Zao is life]

They were His audience. But the prophesy is clearly not limited to those living in Judea of the first century after Christ. "This generation", the natural/native Israel are fairly well dispersed throughout the world.

I don't agree with this because the context of all the other references of Jesus to "this generation" is Jesus talking only about the generation of Jews who rejected Him. Read the OP in this thread. They are listed there.

I do not believe that Jesus has returned. But we have to be as honest with Matthew 24 and the entire Olivet Discourse as we expect Preterists to be with the rest of scripture where it talks about the things leading up to the return of Christ. They tend to (mis)interpret all other scriptures talking about the return of Christ so that it complies with their eschatology. We should not do the same with Matthew 24.

 

[Zao is life]

Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.


Wonder why Preterists disregard this verse? Are they going to argue that 'all' can't include anyone beyond the generation they were living in at the time?

Good point. Who is is "all" and "you" in that verse?

 

[Zao is life]

If one just sticks to the context and realizes that Jesus was addressing the church, not unbelieving Jews, thus telling the church what should befall it while He is away, Matthew 24 is not that difficult after all.

He started off by telling the church what was to befall the temple though, and He also told the church what was to befall Jerusalem.

 

[Zao is life]

The great tribulation is a reference to the great wrath and days of vengeance that was to occur on Jerusalem at the destruction of the temple. The disciples’ generation experienced that.

That's not true. You've completely ignored the context of the word tribulation - which begins in Matthew 24:9 but is also found in Mark 13 and Luke.

The only place in all 3 gospels that Jerusalem and the wrath to come upon it is mentioned is in Luke 21:20-24. The rest of Luke as well as Mark and Matthew talk about the tribulation of the saints, not of the Jews in Jerusalem.