This generation

[Jamdoc]

If your church is more like the state of Israel,
maybe you should change churches.

If your decision making is substandard,
maybe you should improve it.

If you're doing what is right in your own eyes only,
maybe you should correct it.

Romans 12
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

If you're not in the Holy Nation of 1 Peter 2:9,
where are you?

If you're not in the Kingdom of Colossians 1:13,
what are you in?

No human being is perfectly in the will of God.
That includes you.

1 John 1

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Frankly, if you think you're perfectly in the will of God right now? That is a dangerous spiritual condition to be in. I know I have flaws, and I know that I won't be flawless in this life or until Jesus returns.

but aside from that.
"the Kingdom" is a thing under eschatalogical tension.
It is now, but not yet. We will not fully realize it until Jesus returns and we are resurrected.. and actually, we STILL won't know the fullness of it.. until Jesus delivers the Kingdom to the Father

1 Corinthians 15

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

and ending the passage in..

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Yes, if we're in Christ Jesus we will never perish, and we are citizens of the Kingdom of God, however, it is a now, but not yet tension. Until our resurrection, we cannot truly inherit it, and until the Kingdom is delivered up to the Father, and death is totally done away with forever, the Kingdom is not in its Fullness.

when does that happen?
Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is at the very end of the redemptive story, just before the new heavens and the new earth, it's after Jesus has returned, and, in a premillennial view at least, after the Millennial Kingdom.
But in any view but preterism? It's at the end.
Until then? anything said to be the Kingdom of God, is a shadow of what will be.

 

[Hammster]

Although Its less important how a word is used in the Bible then its definition in its original written language (Greek or Hebrew), I did my research as requested by my persistent challenger (Hammster) and found multiple NT verses listed below of "all tribes" indicating something world-wide. Matthew 24:30 must be a world-wide event. As a result, Matthew 24:30 did not happen at 70 AD because there is no written or other archeological evidence of the world-wide great glory Christ return event stated in Matthew 24:30. And therefore, Matthew 24:34 was not fulfilled at 70 AD. When Matthew 24:30 occurs it will not be done in a corner - it will be talked about more than the sum of the rest of human history.

Revelations 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”​

Revelations 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Revelations 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,​

Notice that it’s every tribe AND others.

So no, you didn’t find anything.

 

[Hammster]

and that makes it a collective of individuals, rather than a cohesive single operating state like a Nation or Kingdom.
That's why I say we have the passport, but we've never actually been there, not yet.

Don’t include me in there. I’m currently in His kingdom.

 

[Jamdoc]

Don’t include me in there. I’m currently in His kingdom.

That's an eyeroll

Because the Kingdom promised, has no death, and no sin.
and you are going to die, and we're all sinners.

Or was Paul wrong here? He's looking toward a future event, and if you say this all happened in the past when Jesus ascended to heaven, then you should correct Paul that he's already living in the kingdom and there's no death and no sin and is body has already been redeemed.
Romans 8

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

He says we ARE the children of God, but we WAIT for the adoption.
NOW but NOT YET.

The current world, that we still live on, is still cursed, it still groans, it still waits for our redemption, it still waits for the Kingdom of God to come down out of Heaven.
This current earth, and current life on it, is suffering and groaning waiting for the Lord to return.

 

[Hammster]

That's an eyeroll

Because the Kingdom promised, has no death, and no sin.
and you are going to die, and we're all sinners.

and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
— Mark 1:15

Don’t put your misunderstanding of the kingdom on me.

 

[Jamdoc]

and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
— Mark 1:15

Don’t put your misunderstanding of the kingdom on me.

You have a really butchered understanding of the kingdom if you think this cursed earth and it's death and sin fit into it.

The idea is now but not yet, and that goes for a lot of things in scripture.
Satan is defeated now, but he is not yet in the lake of fire, for instance.

 

[Hammster]

You have a really butchered understanding of the kingdom if you think this cursed earth and it's death and sin fit into it.

The idea is now but not yet, and that goes for a lot of things in scripture.
Satan is defeated now, but he is not yet in the lake of fire, for instance.

The idea is now. I agree. The idea is not yet, I also agree in the sense that it’s still growing, and will continue to grow until it fills the earth. That’s why we must go and make disciples.

 

[claninja]

I did my research as requested by my persistent challenger (Hammster) and found multiple NT verses listed below of "all tribes" indicating something world-wide. Matthew 24:30 must be a world-wide event.

it doesn’t “have” to be world wide based on the language. I would argue The “tribes of the land wailing” is a reference to zechariah 12:12. It’s important to notice the Greek words for “tribe” and “land” in Matthew 24:30 are the same exact words used for “tribe” and “land” in the Septuagint of zechariah 12:12. The tribes of Israel would wail, when Christ came in judgment upon them for the crucifixion and not recognizing the timing of God’s visitation.



Gills exposition on Matthew 24:30.
“And then shall the tribes of the earth, or land,

mourn; that is, the land of Judea; for other lands, and countries, were not usually divided into tribes, as that was; neither were they affected with the calamities and desolations of it, and the vengeance of the son of man upon it; at least not so as to mourn on that account, but rather were glad and rejoiced:

and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in Matthew 26:64. Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them: and when they felt the power of his arm”

 

[JosephZ]

Because the Kingdom promised, has no death, and no sin.
and you are going to die, and we're all sinners.

Or was Paul wrong here? He's looking toward a future event, and if you say this all happened in the past when Jesus ascended to heaven, then you should correct Paul that he's already living in the kingdom and there's no death and no sin and is body has already been redeemed.

How can one die if their faith is in Jesus Christ?

"Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." (Romans 7:24-25;8:1-2)

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)

 

[sovereigngrace]

I love these verses - but as the husband of a graphic designer - please - not red! Also, use the NIV, it's just better. But I love your points. I might use the same ones but indented and in NIV. Cheers!

Please do. I enjoy your posts. Although, I am not a fan of the NIV.

 

[John Mullally]

If the worldwide Apocalyptic event described in Matthew 24:30 took place in the first century, archaeological evidence would be scattered throughout the world. We don't see that.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
​

The only rational explanation is that "this generation" was not talking about Jesus's contemporaries and therefore, Matthew 24:30 is yet future and the Matthew 24:34 generation has not passed away.

It’s not worldwide. I’m not sure why you keep saying that it is.

The phrase "All the tribes of the earth" implies worldwide.

No it doesn’t. It implies Israel.

Notice how the translations says "all the tribes of the earth" instead of "all the tribes of Israel". Saying "All the tribes of the earth" is equivalent to saying "Jews and Gentiles", "all the people groups of the earth" or "all men".

“Tribes” never describes people other than Israel. And actually, “earth” is a poor translation. It should be “land”.

The more you know.

Webster's Dictionary strongly disagrees with you on the definition of Tribes.

Don’t take my word for it. I may be wrong. Do your own word search for tribes in the NT. See if it’s ever used to describe the whole world, or whatever you think it’s describing.

Although Its less important how a word is used in the Bible then its definition in its original written language (Greek or Hebrew), I did my research as requested by my persistent challenger (Hammster) and found multiple NT verses listed below of "all tribes" indicating something world-wide. Matthew 24:30 must be a world-wide event. As a result, Matthew 24:30 did not happen at 70 AD because there is no written or other archeological evidence of the world-wide great glory Christ return event stated in Matthew 24:30. And therefore, Matthew 24:34 was not fulfilled at 70 AD. When Matthew 24:30 occurs it will not be done in a corner - it will be talked about more than the sum of the rest of human history.

Revelations 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”​

Revelations 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Revelations 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,​

Notice that it’s every tribe AND others.

So no, you didn’t find anything.

Scripture interpretation can be shamelessly molded in accordance to one's preconceptions.

 

[Hammster]

Scripture interpretation can be shamelessly molded in accordance to one's preconceptions.

Obviously. You are doing just that. I said that tribe is never used to describe the whole world. And you showed just that. Yet you pretend that you haven’t.

 

[John Mullally]

it doesn’t “have” to be world wide based on the language. I would argue The “tribes of the land wailing” is a reference to zechariah 12:12. It’s important to notice the Greek words for “tribe” and “land” in Matthew 24:30 are the same exact words used for “tribe” and “land” in the Septuagint of zechariah 12:12. The tribes of Israel would wail, when Christ came in judgment upon them for the crucifixion and not recognizing the timing of God’s visitation.



Gills exposition on Matthew 24:30.
“And then shall the tribes of the earth, or land,

mourn; that is, the land of Judea; for other lands, and countries, were not usually divided into tribes, as that was; neither were they affected with the calamities and desolations of it, and the vengeance of the son of man upon it; at least not so as to mourn on that account, but rather were glad and rejoiced:

and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in Matthew 26:64. Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them: and when they felt the power of his arm”

Matthew 24:30 has Christ coming back in the clouds in great glory, not secretly with no record attesting to it. Zechariah 12:10-14 has the Jewish people mourning for Jesus in repentance for what was done to him at the cross. In Matthew 24:30, the world mourns for themselves in expectation of coming judgement.

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 24:30 has Christ coming back in the clouds in great glory, not secretly with no record attesting to it. In Zechariah 12, the Jewish people mourn for Jesus - the one who was pierced - its in repentance. In Matthew 24:30, the world mourns for themselves in expectation of judgement.

Is this Him coming back?


“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
— Daniel 7:13

 

[John Mullally]

Is this Him coming back?

“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
— Daniel 7:13

Daniel 7:1 is talking about Christ (who frequently termed himself as the Son of Man) coming to the Father (the Ancient of Days). Different direction from Matthew 24:30.

 

[jgr]

No human being is perfectly in the will of God.
That includes you.

So has God abandoned us?

And please answer the two questions in post 623.

 

[Hammster]

Daniel 7:1 is talking about Christ (who frequently termed himself as the Son of Man) coming to the Father (the Ancient of Days). Different direction from Matthew 24:30.

And did He quote that in v 30?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Well, I guess it’s true that if you wrongly use scripture it does demolish my thesis.

The only way your customery 1 or 2-line arguments survive are because they avoid the biblical rebuttals at hand. I don't need to tell you, personal opinion is inadmissible.

 

[John Mullally]

Obviously. You are doing just that. I said that tribe is never used to describe the whole world. And you showed just that. Yet you pretend that you haven’t.

The repeated use of something like every tribe and language and people and nation in multiple Revelations verses is poetic as multiple synonyms are used. It should be sufficient to indicate world-wide by simply stating every people, or by simply saying every nation.

Substituting the meaning of tribe with Jewish tribe as you insist throughout the NT makes no sense. Its like an IQ test, which phrase does not fit:

a. Every Jewish tribe
b. Every language
c. Every people
d. Every nation​

 

[sovereigngrace]

a lot of Amills have some strong elements of partial preterism, so it's a relatively easy jump to make. Full Preterists themselves have an amillennial view in a lot of ways, just without believing that yes, Jesus is still coming back someday. That's probably the biggest difference between an Amillennialist and a Full Preterist, is that an Amillennialist will still affirm that Jesus is physically returning. A full preterist will deny that, and may even deny a physical resurrection at all.
Amillennialists seem split as to whether they believe the Great Tribulation was AD70, or a future "Satan's Little Season". Which is generally the biggest difference between a straight up Partial Preterist and an Amillennialist, that an Amillennialist may still believe the Great Tribulation is in the future "Satan's Little Season", but they may not in which case they could probably align with Partial Preterists on a lot.

sometimes people will say they're Amillennial, believe the Great Tribulation was in AD70 and just believe in an instant global nuke 2nd coming with no preceding signs or events and I have to wonder.. what separates them from a Partial Preterist?

I am not a Preterist, but I do believe Daniel 9 is long-fulfilled and that the Great Tribulation was in AD70.

I strongly oppose the unhealthy and deeply grievous fixation Preterists have with the coming of Titus and AD70. That is all they want to talk about. It is so wrong and so unscriptural.