This generation

[Jamdoc]

I agree that Christ didn’t return in 70AD. However, He is on His throne, ruling and reigning. And His kingdom is growing, just as He said it would.

Matthew 24 refers to the day of the Lord and Second Coming.
so without Jesus returning, the events of AD70 were not the primary fulfillment of the OD.
a foreshadowing at best
a precursor, setting up Israel to be scattered so that they could be regathered (and bring forth new leaves) later.
If we compare the second coming to pregnancy and giving birth, which the bible does, often, then AD70 was the conception, the birth would not happen without it, but it was not the heavy labor. The past 1900 years has been the development and ongoing pregnancy, and perhaps the first braxton hicks contractions started in the last several decades.

 

[Hammster]

Revelation 19-21 starting with Jesus destroying the beast and false prophet at Armageddon, continuing with Satan being cast into the lake of fire with them... death and hades cast into the lake of fire... and culminating in the New Heavens and New Earth, where there is no death.

because yes, Jesus was talking about His second coming in Matthew 24, and comparing scripture to scripture? The second coming involves getting rid of all the evil, and a New Heavens and New Earth where righteousness dwells.
That's not this earth.

You keep making these claims and connections without evidence. You are just assuming your position. I ask about sin and death ceasing in regards to Matthew 24, and you jump to the end of Revelation. And then say Jesus was talking about His second coming in Mathew 24. You have these dots, but you aren’t connecting them.

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 24 refers to the day of the Lord and Second Coming.
so without Jesus returning, the events of AD70 were not the primary fulfillment of the OD.
a foreshadowing at best
a precursor, setting up Israel to be scattered so that they could be regathered (and bring forth new leaves) later.
If we compare the second coming to pregnancy and giving birth, which the bible does, often, then AD70 was the conception, the birth would not happen without it, but it was not the heavy labor. The past 1900 years has been the development and ongoing pregnancy, and perhaps the first braxton hicks contractions started in the last several decades.

See previous post. Not only are you not proving anything, you aren’t giving evidence, and you are stating things that aren’t in the text. How exactly can I properly respond to that?

 

[Jamdoc]

For sure this current world is fulfilling this promise of God.
Every single day:

Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
(Isaiah 9:7)



BINGO!

If I believed you were right, god would be an unimaginable disappointment.

 

[Jamdoc]

You keep making these claims and connections without evidence. You are just assuming your position. I ask about sin and death ceasing in regards to Matthew 24, and you jump to the end of Revelation. And then say Jesus was talking about His second coming in Mathew 24. You have these dots, but you aren’t connecting them.

I already connected Matthew 24 to Revelation 6 earlier in this thread, I will not dig it back up to entertain a preterist.

 

[Timtofly]

Peter does not say those exact words, but Isaiah 65 when describing the NHNE did say that sinners would still be present. And death would still be occurring, of both the righteous and the wicked. And childbirth as well (which does not take place for people in the eternal state). And prayers to God (which those in God's presence in heaven don't need to do).

2 Peter 3:13 also does not say:

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth NOTHING BUT righteousness.

Peter's NHNE is the same as John's Revelation 21. But Isaiah's new heaven and earth is not Revelation 21 but the 1,000 year reign of Christ the Prince.

There are no sinners born in Isaiah 65. A rebellious child dies because they are put to death. They are considered cursed and become dead sinners, not living sinners. Isaiah was declaring what would happen to those who break the iron rule Law. Death is the last enemy. But Satan and sin are gone. Just disobedience ending in death. No prisons and no rehabilitation, only death.

Those currently in Paradise cannot break any laws, since there are no laws in God's presence.

 

[DavidPT]

Peter's NHNE is the same as John's Revelation 21. But Isaiah's new heaven and earth is not Revelation 21 but the 1,000 year reign of Christ the Prince.

You would then have us believe that what is being described in Isaiah 65 is not wherein dwelleth righteousness. You would then have us believe that there are 2 sets of new heavens and new earths, and that the first one is temporary.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


You would then have us believe that the first heaven and the first earth is not meaning this same heaven and earth we are presently living in, it is meaning the new heaven and new earth in Isaiah 65 instead.

IOW, instead of this---And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the present heaven and the present earth were passed away---this instead---And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first new heaven and the first new earth were passed away. After all, if they are not the same NHNE, that means when the one recorded in Revelation 21:1 arrives, the one in Isaiah 65 needs to pass away first, obviously. Except that doesn't agree with what is recorded in Revelation 21:1, since that is obviously meaning this same current heaven and earth we are living in now, being what has passed away.

 

[Hammster]

I already connected Matthew 24 to Revelation 6 earlier in this thread, I will not dig it back up to entertain a preterist.

You actually haven’t. All of your arguments just assume your view. Just because you quote two passages together doesn’t mean you’ve connected them.

 

[JosephZ]

You would then have us believe that the first heaven and the first earth is not meaning this same heaven and earth we are presently living in, it is meaning the new heaven and new earth in Isaiah 65 instead.

IOW, instead of this---And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the present heaven and the present earth were passed away---this instead---And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first new heaven and the first new earth were passed away. After all, if they are not the same NHNE, that means when the one recorded in Revelation 21:1 arrives, the one in Isaiah 65 needs to pass away first, obviously. Except that doesn't agree with what is recorded in Revelation 21:1, since that is obviously meaning this same current heaven and earth we are living in now, being what has passed away.

A text cannot mean what it could never have meant for its original readers/hearers.” ― Gordon D. Fee

It's quite possible that those hearing/reading the words of the prophets, Jesus, Paul, or Peter saw the Temple as a symbol or representation of heaven and earth.

Below are some excerpts from THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS By Flavius Josephus concerning the tabernacle/temple that Moses built.

As for the inside, Moses parted its length into three partitions. At the distance of ten cubits from the most secret end, Moses placed four pillars, the workmanship of which was the very same with that of the rest; and they stood upon the like bases with them, each a small matter distant from his fellow. Now the room within those pillars was the most holy place; but the rest of the room was the tabernacle, which was open for the priests. However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only. (Bk. 3, chapter 6:4)

Now here one may wonder at the ill-will which men bear to us, and which they profess to bear on account of our despising that Deity which they pretend to honor; for if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were every one made in way of imitation and representation of the universe. When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men. And when he ordered twelve loaves to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so many months. By branching out the candlestick into seventy parts, he secretly intimated the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets; and as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to the course of the planets, of which that is the number. The veils, too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because the flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because that color is dyed by the blood of a sea shell-fish; the blue is fit to signify the air; and the scarlet will naturally be an indication of fire. Now the vestment of the high priest being made of linen, signified the earth; the blue denoted the sky, being like lightning in its pomegranates, and in the noise of the bells resembling thunder. And for the ephod, it showed that God had made the universe of four elements; and as for the gold interwoven, I suppose it related to the splendor by which all things are enlightened. He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle place of the world. And the girdle which encompassed the high priest round, signified the ocean, for that goes round about and includes the universe. Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and the moon; those, I mean, that were in the nature of buttons on the high priest's shoulders. And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning. And for the mitre, which was of a blue color, it seems to me to mean heaven; for how otherwise could the name of God be inscribed upon it? That it was also illustrated with a crown, and that of gold also, is because of that splendor with which God is pleased. Let this explication suffice at present, since the course of my narration will often, and on many occasions, afford me the opportunity of enlarging upon the virtue of our legislator. (Bk. 3, Chpt 7:7)

Jesus said heaven and earth would pass away Before the law.

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, UNTIL heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-18)

Notice that Jesus said heaven and earth had to pass away BEFORE the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law.

Clearly the physical heaven and earth have not been destroyed, but Jesus did say UNTIL heaven and earth pass away the old Law could not pass. So that means that if the "heaven and earth" spoken of was the physical heaven and earth then that would mean that the old Law is still in effect. But we know this is not true.

"But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6)

"In speaking of a new covenant,” He has made the first one obsolete;" (Romans 8:13)

We read the scriptures from a 21st state of mind and understanding, but it's very possible, based on the writings of Josephus who lived in the first century and was an eye witness to the destruction of Jerusalem, that the temple and the Mosaic Law is what those living in the first century would thought about when they read or heard the words "heaven and earth" coming from the prophets, Jesus, and the Apostles.

 

[Hammster]

If I believed you were right, god would be an unimaginable disappointment.

Was Isaiah wrong when he said that His government would increase? Was Daniel wrong when he said that the stone cut without hands would grow into a mountain and fill the earth? Was Jesus wrong when He said that His kingdom would start tiny and grow until it was huge?

 

[DavidPT]

A text cannot mean what it could never have meant for its original readers/hearers.” ― Gordon D. Fee

This is some bizarre logic based on some accounts recorded in the book of Daniel, for example, where Daniel made it clear on a few occasions that he did not understand what some of the things involving some of the visions he was given were meaning.


Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

How is reasonable to apply what Gordon D. Fee said to what Daniel said here?

 

[Timtofly]

If two people are slowly tortured to death over the course of a few weeks, and a 100 are killed instantly in an explosion, which group suffered greater tribulation?

The holocaust lasted longer than 7 months.

 

[Jamdoc]

You actually haven’t. All of your arguments just assume your view. Just because you quote two passages together doesn’t mean you’ve connected them.

The same things happen, I even color coded them.
if you want to see Matthew 24 as not being the same event as Revelation 6, and all the Old Testament passages talking about the Day of the Lord, I don't know what to say, except annoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Because Jesus is coming back, and it will be preceded by the signs He gave.

 

[Jamdoc]

Was Isaiah wrong when he said that His government would increase? Was Daniel wrong when he said that the stone cut without hands would grow into a mountain and fill the earth? Was Jesus wrong when He said that His kingdom would start tiny and grow until it was huge?

Still utterly disappointing if "no place was found for them" just means "well Christianity will just be the most popular religion, but God gave up on this world and we all just go to a spiritual floaty cloudy place and be disembodied floaty spirity things when we die"
Because it means God said to Satan "here, you can keep this world, I'm just taking people to floaty cloudy place forever and abandoning my creation, forget what I said about restoring all things, you won this time"

 

[Timtofly]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but perhaps the sin and death that was spoken of is that which resided in the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law has been done away with and as a result we have been set free from the power of sin and death.

Our sin and its penalty (Death) were taken away when Jesus was nailed to the cross and He sacrificed His life for us. There is no death for those who believe.

Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life. (John 6:47)

“For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.” (Romans 7:5-6)

“I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” (Romans 7:10–11)

"Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." (Romans 7:24-25;8:1-2)

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)

This all happened 40 years before your "end date". This was all finished and completed in 30AD. Not a single verse in this quote points to 70AD. The Word of God on the Cross is, "IT IS FINISHED".

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is 0 way
NO WAY
absolutely no way
that this current cursed world is the fulfillment of God's promises.

This current world is only one more of the ages leading to the final judgment and resurrection. God is incrementally and steadily working towards that point of total purification of His creation. Demonic evil has already been eliminated back in AD 70, (as promised), and it remains for God to purge the remaining human wickedness from this world. Every time a sinner comes to faith in Christ, that is one more step forward for the kingdom of God in this world. At the close of fallen man's history on this planet, God will completely purge human wickedness out of it in the final judgment and resurrection.

Just like a "husbandman", God has "long patience" while He waits for "the precious fruit of the earth". The final harvest will be all that you hope and expect for it to be - and far more. God is able to do "exceeding abundantly above what we ask or think."

The book of Revelation was not intended to be a period on the end of a sentence. It was a semi-colon.

 

[Jamdoc]

This current world is only one more of the ages leading to the final judgment and resurrection. God is incrementally and steadily working towards that point of total purification of His creation. Demonic evil has already been eliminated back in AD 70, (as promised), and it remains for God to purge the remaining human wickedness from this world. Every time a sinner comes to faith in Christ, that is one more step forward for the kingdom of God in this world. At the close of fallen man's history on this planet, God will completely purge human wickedness out of it in the final judgment and resurrection.

Just like a "husbandman", God has "long patience" while He waits for "the precious fruit of the earth". The final harvest will be all that you hope and expect for it to be - and far more. God is able to do "exceeding abundantly above what we ask or think."

The book of Revelation was not intended to be a period on the end of a sentence. It was a semi-colon.

People still get possessed by demonic evil today.

 

[3 Resurrections]

And even St. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (AD 336-395) - My signature line:
"Do we romance about three Resurrections? Do we promise the gluttony of the Millennium? Do we declare that the Jewish animal-sacrifices shall be restored? Do we lower men's hopes again to the Jerusalem below, imagining its rebuilding with stones of a more brilliant material? What charge like these can be brought against us, that our company should be reckoned a thing to be avoided?"

I have commented on this signature line of yours before with my approval. It doesn't matter to me that this ECF, St. Gregory, wrote against a theme of three resurrection events back in his day. What is interesting to me is that this theme of three resurrections must have been a commonly-contested subject in St. Gregory's experience in those years for this ECF to mention it specifically with his objections. That tells me that these three resurrections were a prevailing thought very early on in the religious world. So those who accuse me of concocting a doctrine that is solely my own opinion are incorrect. Apparently, it was considered a possible interpretation by any number of men loooong ago.

There really is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Timtofly]

Far from it.

Ask any historically cognizant Jew which of the following represented the worst death:

1. Gas
2. Bullet
3. Crucifixion

You left out starvation, and it happened for a lot longer during WW2 than the 7 months of 70AD.

Guess who were the test subjects for the Bayer company during WW2? Many were deliberately infected as human test subjects for several medications.

The Germans did not view the Jews as humans, so they suffered way more than just facing instant death.

 

[grafted branch]

I used to believe that a generation is a period of time while a person lives and the next generation starts when the son is born. Based on Matthew 1:1-17 I thought since Christ still lives and He has no son to start the next generation, “this generation” was the last and final generation that continues till the end.

I now lean more towards the preterist view and now when I look at Matthew 1:17, if I count Abraham as generation 1 (g1), David is g14. It starts counting again with Solomon as g1 and Jechonias is g14. The next count has to start with being carried away to Babylon as g1 to end at Christ as g14.

What I find interesting is that being carried away to Babylon is an event that happens to a generation that has no ties to a particular person (Jechonias begat Salathiel which would’ve made him g1 in the last count of 14 generations according to a father/son count).

I would say mystery Babylon, in Revelation, happened to “this generation” just as being carried away to Babylon was considered as a generation in Matthew 1.

Does anyone not think “this generation” happened or will happen during the time of mystery Babylon?