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This generation

Hammster

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That's just semantics, and I think you know it. The destruction of the temple was a very big thing and though none of us lived in the 1st century, we are all 100% sure about it because it's part of both Jewish and Roman history and written all over the history books.

The return of Christ in 70 A.D would be even a much much much bigger thing and yet we are arguing today about whether or not Christ returned in 70 A.D, which is already proof that it has not yet happened. The apostle Peter was prophesying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he wrote about the new heavens and new earth which we look forward to "in which righteousness dwells". I think God would have made it abundantly clear that both righteousness and wickedness would dwell in the new heavens and new earth following the return of Christ.

We know that the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple occurred in 70 A.D, but you guys are all trying to convince everyone that something infinitely bigger occurred at the same time, and yet in this "new heavens and earth" we are all living in hardly anyone believes you because it's simply not recorded.

Mmmm.
I never argued for the return of Christ in 70 AD. So I don’t know why you’d bring it up. Hopefully it’s not an attempt to distract.
 
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Hammster

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Jesus is referring to all those born of woman when referring to this generation. That meaning is used to address those He is teaching and includes any one who lived past or future.
The examples given in the OP bears that out.
No, He’s referring to those He’s speaking to. It’s so obvious that one would have to deliberately try to misunderstand it in order to come up with something else.
 
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3 Resurrections

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The apostle Peter was prophesying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he wrote about the new heavens and new earth which we look forward to "in which righteousness dwells". I think God would have made it abundantly clear that both righteousness and wickedness would dwell in the new heavens and new earth following the return of Christ.

He did. It's in Isaiah 65:20 with the presence of sinners, and death still occurring.
Wickedness is also still being practiced in the world outside the gates of the New Jerusalem city in Revelation 22:14-15.

The return of Christ in 70 A.D would be even a much much much bigger thing and yet we are arguing today about whether or not Christ returned in 70 A.D, which is already proof that it has not yet happened.

You and many others such as yourself may not believe that Christ bodily returned in AD 70, but in records we have of the first century, there is evidence that approximately 1-1/4 million people DID believe it. That is the amount of people that obeyed Christ's advance warning to flee Judea for the mountains, who did not return to Jerusalem for any reason after they saw the city surrounded in AD 66 by Cestius Gallus.

If you consult the casualty lists from the Roman / Jewish war found in Ussher's last page of his "Annals of the World", (dated from the Passover census in AD 66 until the city was destroyed in AD 70), there is a discrepancy of approximately 1-1/4 million between the number of people in Jerusalem who would have ordinarily been present in Jerusalem in AD 70 and those who were there in AD 66 at the Passover. This number represents the approximate number of people who believed Christ's prediction of imminent disasters and His promise to return for His bodily-resurrected saints before "THIS generation" had passed away.

A bunch of empty ossuaries from that second temple period should raise some eyebrows...
 
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Zao is life

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The Battlefield Victory of David Over Saul was a very big thing, an incredibly significant event in Israel's timeline, and though none of us lived in 1000 BC, we are all 100% sure it happened.

AFTER David's Battlefield Defeat of Saul, David describes the Battle as having been FULFILLED thusly:

2 Samuel 22:8-16
8 “Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.


God sure was a huffin and a puffin right there wasn't He?
According to David, God was Actually, Optically Seen Running about the Clouds, Flying around on a Cherub, Shouting and Shooting arrows and lighting fires from his brightness and nostril breath, Bowing all the heavens, drying up the seas, laying the entire earth bare to it's foundations...

We know that Saul's Kingdom came to and end at David's hands in 1010 BC, but in 2 Samuel 22, David is trying to convince everyone that something infinitely bigger occurred at the same time.

Perhaps David was mistaken about the events he just witnessed?
Or worse yet, he was outright Lying about it?

Please exegete this passage for us.
Literal?
Figurative?

Mmmmmm...
The Romans did not stop ruling when "the Kingdom of Christ came". No beast and false prophet in the Lake of Fire after being defeated by the sword which proceeded from He who rides on a white horse whose name is called the Word of God.

True, it's all metaphor and hyperbole in the Revelation and the New Testament's prophetic scriptures because when it will be fulfilled, that's the description of the literal effect that it will have on the earth. Sorry but I believe your timing is as big an anachronism as the timing of those who claim that Daniel 9:27 still has its fulfillment sometime between now and the new heavens and new earth.

Which of the ECF wrote that Jesus returned in 70 A.D?
 
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parousia70

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The Romans did not stop ruling when "the Kingdom of Christ came". No beast and false prophet in the Lake of Fire after being defeated by the sword which proceeded from He who rides on a white horse whose name is called the Word of God.

True, it's all metaphor and hyperbole in the Revelation and the New Testament's prophetic scriptures because when it will be fulfilled, that's the description of the literal effect that it will have on the earth. Sorry but I believe your timing is as big an anachronism as the timing of those who claim that Daniel 9:27 still has its fulfillment sometime between now and the new heavens and new earth.

Which of the ECF wrote that Jesus returned in 70 A.D?

Please exegete 2 Samuel 22 for us first.

Was David Mistaken? Was he Lying?
Or, did those things He described LITERALLY occur at that time? And if so, where is the independent historical record?
Surely such a monumental, global event of God personally comig down to earth in the clouds, shooting arrows, lighting fires with His brightness, drying up the oceans and laying the earth bare to its foundations in 1000BC would have been recorded in all the history books the world over from that time, no?

Is there another option?
 
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jgr

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Do you not know that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are not interpreting themselves, but quoting Jesus. No one reads Matthew to see how he interprets himself.

In using Scripture to interpret Scripture, what do we use first to interpret Scripture in the Gospel of Matthew?

Other Scripture within the Gospel of Matthew?

Or other Scripture outside of Matthew?

The answer is self-evident.
 
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Zao is life

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Please exegete 2 Samuel 22 for us first.

Was David Mistaken? Was he Lying?
Or, did those things He described LITERALLY occur at that time? And if so, where is the independent historical record?
Surely such a monumental, global event of God personally comig down to earth in the clouds, shooting arrows, lighting fires with His brightness, drying up the oceans and laying the earth bare to its foundations in 1000BC would have been recorded in all the history books the world over from that time, no?

Is there another option?
The book of Samuel was written long before Peter's epistle. You're creating a red herring. Stick to what Peter said and to what the earliest ECF wrote after the apostles' time.

There would be some record somewhere of Christ having returned. All we have is.. silence (unlike the record of David's defeat of Saul).
 
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Zao is life

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He did. It's in Isaiah 65:20 with the presence of sinners, and death still occurring.
Wickedness is also still being practiced in the world outside the gates of the New Jerusalem city in Revelation 22:14-15.



You and many others such as yourself may not believe that Christ bodily returned in AD 70, but in records we have of the first century, there is evidence that approximately 1-1/4 million people DID believe it. That is the amount of people that obeyed Christ's advance warning to flee Judea for the mountains, who did not return to Jerusalem for any reason after they saw the city surrounded in AD 66 by Cestius Gallus.

If you consult the casualty lists from the Roman / Jewish war found in Ussher's last page of his "Annals of the World", (dated from the Passover census in AD 66 until the city was destroyed in AD 70), there is a discrepancy of approximately 1-1/4 million between the number of people in Jerusalem who would have ordinarily been present in Jerusalem in AD 70 and those who were there in AD 66 at the Passover. This number represents the approximate number of people who believed Christ's prediction of imminent disasters and His promise to return for His bodily-resurrected saints before "THIS generation" had passed away.

A bunch of empty ossuaries from that second temple period should raise some eyebrows...
And that proves Christ has returned? The Greek word for "this" in "this generation" is hoûtos. It's used everywhere in reference to all sorts of subjects that are being spoken about.

Anyone can assume that "this generation" means the generation that would be alive in 70 A.D, but because when Jesus used those worlds He was talking about the great tribulation for His name's sake that His disciples would experience when they become hated of all nations for His name's sake, it can be meaning any generation (and it makes no difference whatever the effect the return of Christ is that is symbolized by the language of darkening of sun and moon, the powers of the heaven being shaken etc).

I agree that the language is symbolic (metaphor and hyperbole) but in my human intellect the symbolic language and whatever it represents makes zero difference to the timing of Christ's return. Zero difference. Same goes for the words "this generation" (Greek hoûtos). It does not have to be referring to the same generation that would be alive in 70 A.D.
 
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Zao is life

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I never argued for the return of Christ in 70 AD. So I don’t know why you’d bring it up. Hopefully it’s not an attempt to distract.
Makes no difference to whether or not we can legitimately assume that the great tribulation that the elect would go through (which is what Jesus was talking about when He used the words "this generation" - Matthew 24:9 through 34) means the time in history and time of tribulation of those who believe in Jesus generation we want to place it in.
 
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Eloy Craft

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No, He’s referring to those He’s speaking to. ’
I believe that is true. But that doesn't mean Jesus meant only them when He spoke to them as this generation. I believe the people there received it directly, physically so it happened directly and physically to them before they began passing.
Their particular judgement. They rejected God to His face so to speak.

The queen of the south at the resurrection of the dead condemns this generation Jesus said.
How can her life condemn? She is born into this generation.
He wasn't of this generation and we take that for granted. His listeners couldn't catch that implication if this generation didn't refer to a father.
 
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DavidPT

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I just found the following article below, involving the subject of the OP. I read all of it though it is somewhat lengthy. I pretty much grasped everything this author was proposing. Some of it I had already been thinking along some of those same lines myself, maybe why I easily grasped what he was proposing. In my mind, this is the most convincing article to date that I have read involving this subject. It is worth the read. Personally, I'm seriously thinking about adopting this view since it makes the most sense to me.

When you think about it, should we assume Jesus was simple minded about things, that if He said 'this generation' in the gospels, it's as simple as Preterists portray it to be, that it is not more complex than that, thus nothing to dispute, nothing to consider beyond that? Clearly, the author of this article has put way way more thought and work into this subject than these Preterists in this thread have done, or that I have done or probably anyone else in this thread has done as well. So, I'm not going to pretend that it's only the Preterists in this thread who haven't put as much thought and work into this subject as this author has. Yet, these Preterists give the impression that they are experts on this subject, therefore, how dare one think they can prove their alleged expertise incorrect. The following is from that article.
----------------------------------------------------


Conclusion and implications

Jesus' reference to 'this generation' in Matthew 24:34, which constitutes the last of such references in the gospel, can be understood against the way in which generational language is used throughout the gospel. While the interpretation put forth here confirms the view that 'this generation' has a pejorative connotation that refers to an evil kind of people, it has been argued that 'this generation' forms part of a larger, dual category akin to Genesis 3:15. Such a connection can especially be identified with the three references in the gospel (vs. only one in Luke) to the generation or offspring of vipers. The generation of vipers closely coheres with the idea behind the 'seed' of the serpent in Genesis 3:15. Such language, in turn, forms part of a continuous contrast within Matthew between the timeless generation or family belonging to the devil or the serpent, and the generation or family belonging to God or his kingdom. The enmity between the different 'seeds' (Gn 3:15) is especially resembled (1) by the murdering of the prophets, who Jesus considers as the spiritual fathers of the scribes and Pharisees (Mt 23:31-37), and (2) by the opposition against Jesus and his messiahship, constituted by the false prophets and false messiahs (Mt 7:15; 24:11, 24). Yet, the enmity between the different kinds of generations is also evident in the contrast between the 'good seed' and the 'weeds', constituting those who belong to God's kingdom and bear good fruit, versus those who belong to the kingdom of the devil and do not produce the right harvest (Mt 13:24-30, 36-43). In conclusion, 'this generation' in Matthew is neither time-bound, in that it would refer to Jesus' contemporaries exclusively, nor is it connected to a certain ethnic group or race exclusively. Ultimately, 'this generation' points to the spiritual generation belonging to the devil (the serpent) and his kingdom, as opposed to the generation belonging to God and his kingdom. Such an opposition is especially based on the enmity portrayed by Genesis 3:15.

The implications of the above interpretation of 'this generation' in Matthew 24:34, and arguably in Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32, are twofold:

It solves the eschatological problems attached to the interpretation that Jesus solely had his contemporaries in view:

it relieves the charge that Jesus would have been incorrect in his alleged prediction that his contemporaries would witness his second coming

it counters the idea that 'all these things' (Mt 24:33, 34) would arbitrarily point to the events leading up to the destruction of the temple in 70 CE and exclude Jesus' second coming

it removes the need of a preterist view in order to account for Jesus' reference to 'this generation'.

Because 'this generation' is not race-specific in principle, it relieves much of the charges of anti-Judaism or even anti-Semitism that are often laid against the gospel in instances where Jesus addresses his opponents. In light of my proposed understanding of the generational language in the gospel, it is in fact conceivable that the reference in Matthew 27:25 to Jesus' blood being 'on us and our children' might also be interpreted as a reference to spiritual rather than a biological offspring.




'This generation' in Matthew 24:34 as a timeless, spiritual generation akin to Genesis 3:15
 
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JulieB67

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Hammster

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Makes no difference to whether or not we can legitimately assume that the great tribulation that the elect would go through (which is what Jesus was talking about when He used the words "this generation" - Matthew 24:9 through 34) means the time in history and time of tribulation of those who believe in Jesus generation we want to place it in.
I’m not clear on your point.
 
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Hammster

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I just found the following article below, involving the subject of the OP. I read all of it though it is somewhat lengthy. I pretty much grasped everything this author was proposing. Some of it I had already been thinking along some of those same lines myself, maybe why I easily grasped what he was proposing. In my mind, this is the most convincing article to date that I have read involving this subject. It is worth the read. Personally, I'm seriously thinking about adopting this view since it makes the most sense to me.

When you think about it, should we assume Jesus was simple minded about things, that if He said 'this generation' in the gospels, it's as simple as Preterists portray it to be, that it is not more complex than that, thus nothing to dispute, nothing to consider beyond that? Clearly, the author of this article has put way way more thought and work into this subject than these Preterists in this thread have done, or that I have done or probably anyone else in this thread has done as well. So, I'm not going to pretend that it's only the Preterists in this thread who haven't put as much thought and work into this subject as this author has. Yet, these Preterists give the impression that they are experts on this subject, therefore, how dare one think they can prove their alleged expertise incorrect. The following is from that article.
----------------------------------------------------


Conclusion and implications

Jesus' reference to 'this generation' in Matthew 24:34, which constitutes the last of such references in the gospel, can be understood against the way in which generational language is used throughout the gospel. While the interpretation put forth here confirms the view that 'this generation' has a pejorative connotation that refers to an evil kind of people, it has been argued that 'this generation' forms part of a larger, dual category akin to Genesis 3:15. Such a connection can especially be identified with the three references in the gospel (vs. only one in Luke) to the generation or offspring of vipers. The generation of vipers closely coheres with the idea behind the 'seed' of the serpent in Genesis 3:15. Such language, in turn, forms part of a continuous contrast within Matthew between the timeless generation or family belonging to the devil or the serpent, and the generation or family belonging to God or his kingdom. The enmity between the different 'seeds' (Gn 3:15) is especially resembled (1) by the murdering of the prophets, who Jesus considers as the spiritual fathers of the scribes and Pharisees (Mt 23:31-37), and (2) by the opposition against Jesus and his messiahship, constituted by the false prophets and false messiahs (Mt 7:15; 24:11, 24). Yet, the enmity between the different kinds of generations is also evident in the contrast between the 'good seed' and the 'weeds', constituting those who belong to God's kingdom and bear good fruit, versus those who belong to the kingdom of the devil and do not produce the right harvest (Mt 13:24-30, 36-43). In conclusion, 'this generation' in Matthew is neither time-bound, in that it would refer to Jesus' contemporaries exclusively, nor is it connected to a certain ethnic group or race exclusively. Ultimately, 'this generation' points to the spiritual generation belonging to the devil (the serpent) and his kingdom, as opposed to the generation belonging to God and his kingdom. Such an opposition is especially based on the enmity portrayed by Genesis 3:15.

The implications of the above interpretation of 'this generation' in Matthew 24:34, and arguably in Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32, are twofold:

It solves the eschatological problems attached to the interpretation that Jesus solely had his contemporaries in view:

it relieves the charge that Jesus would have been incorrect in his alleged prediction that his contemporaries would witness his second coming

it counters the idea that 'all these things' (Mt 24:33, 34) would arbitrarily point to the events leading up to the destruction of the temple in 70 CE and exclude Jesus' second coming

it removes the need of a preterist view in order to account for Jesus' reference to 'this generation'.

Because 'this generation' is not race-specific in principle, it relieves much of the charges of anti-Judaism or even anti-Semitism that are often laid against the gospel in instances where Jesus addresses his opponents. In light of my proposed understanding of the generational language in the gospel, it is in fact conceivable that the reference in Matthew 27:25 to Jesus' blood being 'on us and our children' might also be interpreted as a reference to spiritual rather than a biological offspring.




'This generation' in Matthew 24:34 as a timeless, spiritual generation akin to Genesis 3:15
There’s always ways to explain away the clear text of scripture. I’m not surprised at all that these types of papers exist. I can produce one that clearly explains my position. But what would be the point of that in a forum like this?
 
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Hammster

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So no breakdown of the verses I posted -I thought as much.
I don’t regularly respond to carpet bomb posts. If you want me to further address verses you’ve put forth (like I’ve been doing), then present them one or two at a time.
 
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parousia70

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The book of Samuel was written long before Peter's epistle.

Irrelevant.
You'r task is to demonstrate where the Bible instructs you to interpret 2 Samuel 22 Figuratively, but Interpret Peter Literally.
The reason you can't, is because it doesn't.

You're creating a red herring. Stick to what Peter said

I am appealing DIRECTLY to what Peter said.
He uses (as all the apostles and Jesus also use) the langage and imagry of universal cataclysm, God being SEEN riding a cloud to earth, personaly fighing His enemies on the battlefield, figuratively to describe a local judgment upon a nation EXACTLY the same way the OT prophets before them used it.

The fact remains, There is no scripture instucting you to interpret Jesus' and the apostles' use of this same language in a Polar Opposite way from How you interpret the OT prophets' use of it.

Which is why, it seems, you are taking the greatest pains to avoid honestly answering the question.

and to what the earliest ECF wrote after the apostles' time.

The ECFs after AD 70 were not inspired in their writings as were the apostles. We must prefer the apostolic teaching over later inventions where they are shown to be in contradiction.

We must recognize that they were not inspired nor reliable from any consensus standpoint.

If you want the truth, you must trust the ECFs of AD 30-70 that wrote the New Testament letters.

There would be some record somewhere of Christ having returned.
Fine, Since you asked so nicely...

From The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
(A.D.347-407)
Archbishop of Constantinople:

[1] "O God of spirits and of all flesh, who hast trampled down death and overthrown the devil, and given life to thy world, do thou, the same Lord, give rest to the souls of thy servants, names, who have fallen asleep, in a place of light, in a place of verdure, in a place of repose, whence all sickness, sorrow and sighing are fled away. Pardon every sin committed by them in word or deed or thought, for thou art a good God and Lover of man, for there is no man that liveth and sinneth not, for thou only art without sin and thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy word is truth."

[2] "Remembering this saving commandment and all those things which have come to pass for us: the cross, the grave, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting down at the right hand, and the second and glorious coming"

[3] "Attend, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, from thy holy dwelling place and from the glorious throne of thy kingdom, and come to sanctify us, O thou that sittest with the Father above, and that are invisibly present here with us. And vouchsafe, by thy strong right hand to impart to us thine immaculate body and thy precious blood, and through us, to all thy people."

(On The Fulfillment of Prophecy)
"It is proper and just to sing hymns to You, to bless You, to praise You, to thank You, to worship You in every place of Your kingdom; for You are God ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, ever existing, yet ever the same. You, and your only Son and Your Holy Spirit; You brought us forth from non-existence into being, and raised us up again when we had fallen, and left nothing undone until you had brought us to heaven and bestowed upon us your future kingdom." (Prayer of the Anaphora - Eucharistic Prayer)

For certain, the greatest number of the earliest Christians believed that a number of, if not all, prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem. The challenge, in fact, is to find even one early Christian that didn't teach the Preterist interpretation of Matthew 24. The earliest and most significant writers were in unanimous agreement, proclaiming the fulfillment of these prophecies in the time of the AD70 destruction of the Jewish city, temple and nation.

Here's a couple more snippets:

Origen - Against Celsus | John | Matthew "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem."

Chrysostom - Homilies on Matthew 24 "Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it."

The ECFs recognized:

(1) that the great tribulation is past, transpiring at AD 66-70
(2) that AD 70 involved a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment


So, while they did not establish a biblically consistent preterism, they were far more preteristic in their understanding of eschatology than most modern futurists. The fact is that the ECFs had their hands full with formulating a consistent Christology, and didn't spend as much time formulating an orthodox, systematic eschatology. We know that the ECFs had mostly assigned Matthew 24 to the past, and the Protestant Reformers had a majority view that all Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

Classical preterism (i.e. The Catholic Preterism of the likes of James Aiken, Scott Hahn, St Cryssostom, St Thomas Aquinas, Eusebius, etc...) sees AD 70 as a temporal judgment coming of God/Christ.

St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Eusebius all understood this basic principle of bible eschatology, and we really ought to take their words to heart.

As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's [future] coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)

And even St. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (AD 336-395) - My signature line:
"Do we romance about three Resurrections? Do we promise the gluttony of the Millennium? Do we declare that the Jewish animal-sacrifices shall be restored? Do we lower men's hopes again to the Jerusalem below, imagining its rebuilding with stones of a more brilliant material? What charge like these can be brought against us, that our company should be reckoned a thing to be avoided?"

Regardless, again, it's the views of the ECF from AD30-70 who's views we ought to prefer when they are shown to contradict the views of the Later ECF.
 
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Jamdoc

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This is a very good line of argument. Once labor starts, the birth of a child is not far behind. There was NO gap of 2,000 years and still counting from the "labor pains" of persecution of Christ's disciples until His return. That is why Christ forewarned His disciples in Matthew 10:17-23 when He first commissioned them to "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils..." He told them that the result of their labors would only lead them to...

"...Beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils" (trials before the Sanhedrin - which is no longer in existence), "and they will scourge you in their synagogues;" (not likely today or in the future either).
"And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (the indwelling Spirit after Christ's ascension).

"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." (Zealotry being one of the main causes of inter-family hostilities and civil warfare in those first-century days, as well as Jewish opposition to the gospel of Christ).

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." (a bodily resurrection for those disciples of Christ who remained faithful unto death under their first-century persecutions).

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Christ's second coming before the disciples had personally finished evangelistic coverage of their own cities of Israel).

Sounds like "labor pains" for the disciples in that first century, culminating in the imminent "birth" of something strategic in those days at Christ's coming.

It's a great argument, because Jesus did not return in AD70.
There is 0 way
NO WAY
absolutely no way
that this current cursed world is the fulfillment of God's promises.
 
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Hammster

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It's a great argument, because Jesus did not return in AD70.
There is 0 way
NO WAY
absolutely no way
that this current cursed world is the fulfillment of God's promises.
I agree that Christ didn’t return in 70AD. However, He is on His throne, ruling and reigning. And His kingdom is growing, just as He said it would.
 
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parousia70

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There is 0 way
NO WAY
absolutely no way
that this current cursed world is the fulfillment of God's promises.

For sure this current world is fulfilling this promise of God.
Every single day:

Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
(Isaiah 9:7)

He is on His throne, ruling and reigning. And His kingdom is growing, just as He said it would.

BINGO!
 
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Jamdoc

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You’ll have to show where in the text that sin and death cease.

Revelation 19-21 starting with Jesus destroying the beast and false prophet at Armageddon, continuing with Satan being cast into the lake of fire with them... death and hades cast into the lake of fire... and culminating in the New Heavens and New Earth, where there is no death.

because yes, Jesus was talking about His second coming in Matthew 24, and comparing scripture to scripture? The second coming involves getting rid of all the evil, and a New Heavens and New Earth where righteousness dwells.
That's not this earth.
 
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