This generation

[keras]

Where does it say that the budding of the fig tree is the reestablishment of the Jewish nation? Please be specific, and don’t use grammatical nuances.

Matthew 24:32-34 Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its shoots appear and it breaks into leaf, then you know summer is near.
In the same way, when you see these things, you may know the end is near; at the very door. I tell you; the present generation will live to see it all.
Jesus made a prophecy, one that came true in May 1948, as the Jewish State of Israel came into being.
Proved by how in the first Century, 70 to 135 AD, the Jews were either killed or dispersed.
WE, Hammster will see it all. Provided God gives us the strength to survive thru what must happen.
I look forward to the Day of the Lord and I work to hasten it on....2 Peter 3:12a Why don't you?

 

[John Mullally]

“Tribes” never describes people other than Israel. And actually, “earth” is a poor translation. It should be “land”.

The more you know.

Webster's Dictionary strongly disagrees with you on the definition of Tribes.

I heard of a man who did not know Greek or Hebrew, but wrote his own Bible that he called the Inspired Version. We now know it as the Joseph Smith translation and nobody uses it.

 

[Hammster]

I did answer it.
I said Jesus didn't know when this would happen, so He gave signs, for every generation, including the Apostles to watch for.
It could have been in their lifetime, or it could be a generation far into the future. Jesus did not know.
He knew what, and that it'd be over a short span of time. He did not known when because only the Father knows.

Everyone assumes that because Jesus is the incarnate God, that He did not need to rely on scripture to inform Him of the will of the Father or what was going to happen.
Yet Jesus used scripture over and over and and over.
Jesus' knowledge of future events came from the old testament prophets, which through the Holy Spirit He understood clearly, where for others it's veiled.
Jesus was consistent with scripture because He argued and preached from scripture. The OD is pulling from old testament prophets, the short time frame comes from Daniel.
He knew He'd be cut off, but not for Himself, and that leads to the 70th week, was it contiguous, or did the cutting off make it not contiguous?
Jesus didn't know, and if it was contiguous, it was not 70AD anyway, that was several weeks of years after being cut off, not one.

So He simply did not know, and His best estimate was that the 70th week would be contiguous with the other 69, making around AD40, not AD70.

But obviously it did not happen in AD40, so it was not contiguous. We entered the times of the gentiles, and have been there for over a millennia.

as for Revelation, that was written between 90-95AD, during Domitian's rule, which began in AD81.

So basically you ignore what He actually said, and created your own story. Not good hermeneutics.

Here it is again. Maybe you can try actually dealing with what was said.

From verse one to verse 34 there are 14 uses of “you” as a second person plural, meaning “y’all who I’m talking to”.

Here’s the parable you are referring to.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
— Matthew 24:32-33

Based on this, who is it that needs to look for signs? His immediate audience.

Then He says this


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Again, He’s talking to His immediate audience. And when He said this generation, it’s the generation He just told to look for signs.

So grammatically, it has to be that generation to whom He was speaking to.

 

[JosephZ]

Webster's Dictionary strongly disagrees with you on the definition of Tribes.

I heard of a man who did not know Greek or Hebrew, but wrote his own Bible that he called the Inspired Version. We now know it as the Joseph Smith translation and nobody uses it.

Strong's Concordance, Greek Dictionary

Strong's Number: G5443

Greek Base Word: φυλή

Usage: Kindred, tribe

Definition: An offshoot, i.e., race or clan.

Detailed definition:

1. A tribe.
A. In the New Testament all the persons descending from one of the twelve sons of the patriarch, Jacob.

2. A race, nation, people.

Most Searched Jesus Quote with φυλή (G5443)

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” — Jesus, Matthew 24:30


Easton's Bible Dictionary

Tribe - a collection of families descending from one ancestor. The "twelve tribes" of the Hebrews were the twelve collections of families which sprang from the sons of Jacob. In Matthew 24:30 the word has a wider significance. The tribes of Israel are referred to as types of the spiritual family of God ( Revelation 7 ). (See ISRAEL, KINGDOM OF; JUDAH, KINGDOM OF)

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 24:32-34 Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its shoots appear and it breaks into leaf, then you know summer is near.
In the same way, when you see these things, you may know the end is near; at the very door. I tell you; the present generation will live to see it all.
Jesus made a prophecy, one that came true in May 1948, as the Jewish State of Israel came into being.
Proved by how in the first Century, 70 to 135 AD, the Jews were either killed or dispersed.
WE, Hammster will see it all. Provided God gives us the strength to survive thru what must happen.
I look forward to the Day of the Lord and I work to hasten it on....2 Peter 3:12a Why don't you?

You didn’t provide any evidence. You just stated your premise with more words. Where does it say that the budding of the fig tree is the reestablishment of the Jewish nation? Please be specific, and don’t use grammatical nuances.

 

[Hammster]

Webster's Dictionary strongly disagrees with you on the definition of Tribes.

I heard of a man who did not know Greek or Hebrew, but wrote his own Bible that he called the Inspired Version. We now know it as the Joseph Smith translation and nobody uses it.

Don’t take my word for it. I may be wrong. Do your own word search for tribes in the NT. See if it’s ever used to describe the whole world, or whatever you think it’s describing.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Assuming I'm understanding you correctly here, how is that supposed to make sense, if according to most views, not necessarily mine, that the great white throne judgment precedes the new heaven and new earth, which would mean those things are outside the city of the New Jerusalem and its open gates in that manner for all eternity since there will be no more judgments after the time of the great white throne judgment?

Yes, a great white throne judgment precedes the new heaven and new earth, but where do you read in scripture that there is one and only one occasion for a great white throne judgment? That is a presumed tradition. Just as it has been presumed that there is one and only one simultaneous bodily resurrection event for all who ever lived on this planet. Which can't possibly be true, because scripture speaks of the "FIRST resurrection", to be followed by at least one more, which would be a second resurrection. And as you may be aware by now, I believe scripture gives evidence of three group bodily resurrection events.

To square things, and even most Premils disagree with me here, the thousand years run in parallel with the new heavens and new earth, IOW, it is the first 1000 years of it. This would mean those things outside of the city are not still outside of the city in the manner after the time of the great white throne judgment, but are outside of it in that manner up until the time of the great white throne judgment.

This underlined portion above is not according to the order in which Revelation 21 and 22 presents them. First is a great white throne judgment for the dead who had died up until that time. Second is the manifestation of the New heaven and New Earth, complete with the New Jerusalem. After describing that New Jerusalem city, John told about the ongoing wicked activity being practiced outside its open gates. And there is no millennium described as taking place parallel to this New Heavens and New Earth either here in Revelation 21 & 22, or back in Isaiah 65.

 

[Jamdoc]

So basically you ignore what He actually said, and created your own story. Not good hermeneutics.

Here it is again. Maybe you can try actually dealing with what was said.

From verse one to verse 34 there are 14 uses of “you” as a second person plural, meaning “y’all who I’m talking to”.

Here’s the parable you are referring to.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
— Matthew 24:32-33

Based on this, who is it that needs to look for signs? His immediate audience.

Then He says this


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Again, He’s talking to His immediate audience. And when He said this generation, it’s the generation He just told to look for signs.

So grammatically, it has to be that generation to whom He was speaking to.

and here it is again.
Jesus did not know the time.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Your entire argument hinges on Jesus knowing the time.
He didn't
so He gave signs, and told them to watch.
and every generation receives the same command.
Watch and pray.

Cept I guess Preterists don't do that because there's nothing to watch and pray for, and nothing to look forward to but dying I guess.
They have no Maranatha cry.

 

[JulieB67]

Detailed definition:

1. A tribe.
A. In the New Testament all the persons descending from one of the twelve sons of the patriarch, Jacob.

2. A race, nation, people.

Most Searched Jesus Quote with φυλή (G5443)

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” — Jesus, Matthew 24:30

There is no detailed definition in the Strong's Concordance.

It's simply -5443 phule- an offshoot, i.e. race or clan;-kindred, tribe. That's the definiton from the Greek manuscripts.

But as I said in another post, the verse doesn't say "the House of Judah" mourned" it states "all tribes of the earth." If you are making the point that this verse is implying the complete House of Israel, that's 12. The others were well dispersed/scattered at that point. So if we take that into account, this would still be world wide. Not just Jerusalem/House of Judah. And the the tribes that are scattered are still part of the NT even though some people like to gloss over that fact.

 

[Hammster]

and here it is again.
Jesus did not know the time.


Your entire argument hinges on Jesus knowing the time.
He didn't
so He gave signs, and told them to watch.
and every generation receives the same command.
Watch and pray.

Cept I guess Preterists don't do that because there's nothing to watch and pray for, and nothing to look forward to but dying I guess.
They have no Maranatha cry.

Here’s the argument again, which you still haven’t dealt with. Remember, I’m responding to your argument about the fig tree.

From verse one to verse 34 there are 14 uses of “you” as a second person plural, meaning “y’all who I’m talking to”.

Here’s the parable you are referring to.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
— Matthew 24:32-33

Based on this, who is it that needs to look for signs? His immediate audience.

Then He says this


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Again, He’s talking to His immediate audience. And when He said this generation, it’s the generation He just told to look for signs.

So grammatically, it has to be that generation to whom He was speaking to.

 

[Hammster]

There is no detailed definition in the Strong's Concordance.

It's simply -5443 phule- an offshoot, i.e. race or clan;-kindred, tribe. That's the definiton from the Greek manuscripts.

But as I said in another post, the verse doesn't say "the House of Judah" mourned" it states "all tribes of the earth." If you are making the point that this verse is implying the complete House of Israel, that's 12. The others were well dispersed/scattered at that point. So if we take that into account, this would still be world wide. Not just Jerusalem/House of Judah. And the the tribes that are scattered are still part of the NT even though some people like to gloss over that fact.

Same challenge to you. Can you find in scripture where tribes ever refers to a people other than Israel? Even in Revelation, it’s a separate category.


And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
— Revelation 5:9

 

[Jamdoc]

Here’s the argument again, which you still haven’t dealt with. Remember, I’m responding to your argument about the fig tree.

From verse one to verse 34 there are 14 uses of “you” as a second person plural, meaning “y’all who I’m talking to”.

Here’s the parable you are referring to.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
— Matthew 24:32-33

Based on this, who is it that needs to look for signs? His immediate audience.

Then He says this


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Again, He’s talking to His immediate audience. And when He said this generation, it’s the generation He just told to look for signs.

So grammatically, it has to be that generation to whom He was speaking to.

It's totally whooshing over your head.

Jesus did not know when this would happen, it was not a detail the Father revealed to Him, or anyone else.

Therefore, He gave the signs for EVERY GENERATION to watch for, until He actually returns.
So, was it to the Apostles? Yes. But. It was not EXCLUSIVELY to them, because Jesus did not know it would be in any given year. Could it have happened during the Apostles lifetime? Possibly. But it wasn't, because God the Father still has a plan. In fact it was unlikely because the fig tree hadn't been withered yet, so it surely would not be bringing forth new leaves yet (note an interesting detail, the language is bring forth new leaves, not bring forth fruit, to me that actually hints the coming back in unbelief). But it is possible that the diaspora could have been a rather short period of time. Babylon was 70 years.
That plan has not been fulfilled yet, so.. ultimately.. Matthew 24 has not been fulfilled yet. Because Matthew 24, ends with the Day of the Lord, notably the 6th seal of Revelation.

All second coming scripture is given to every generation because of the uncertainty we have in when it will happen. We only know signs and they come on like birth pains.
Like birth pains, they do not start at the beginning of the pregnancy and then take a 2000 year calm before poof, suddenly baby.
They start and get worse and closer together until the baby is delivered.
Scripture gives that illustration several times.
Partial preterism doesn't at all fit this illustration, why would God even give it if the hard labor is done at the beginning of the pregnancy and the delivery appears without warning or pain?

Could the Apostles witnessed a revival in Israel that had gone into the Great Tribulation and culminated into the Second coming? Possibly.
But because they didn't see the Fig Tree bring forth new leaves... summer was not near.

Now.. we could be interpreting the fig tree wrong, Personally, I disagree with 1948, as Jesus is not returning to Tel Aviv, or Haifa or any other places that Israel had control of in 1948. Rather Jesus is returning to Jerusalem, which was taken in 1967.

Possibly Coincidentally, though I think there are no coincidences with God, there was a large revival movement that took place starting in 1967 called the Jesus Movement. Jerusalem was bringing forth new leaves, and the Church was experiencing a revival and bearing fruit at the same time.
It could be coincidence, but I think God was making moves.

Either way, I stress watching and praying for His return, something incompatible with preterism.

 

[Hammster]

It's totally whooshing over your head.

Jesus did not know when this would happen, it was not a detail the Father revealed to Him, or anyone else.

Therefore, He gave the signs for EVERY GENERATION to watch for, until He actually returns.
So, was it to the Apostles? Yes. But. It was not EXCLUSIVELY to them, because Jesus did not know it would be in any given year. Could it have happened during the Apostles lifetime? Possibly. But it wasn't, because God the Father still has a plan. In fact it was unlikely because the fig tree hadn't been withered yet, so it surely would not be bringing forth new leaves yet (note an interesting detail, the language is bring forth new leaves, not bring forth fruit, to me that actually hints the coming back in unbelief). But it is possible that the diaspora could have been a rather short period of time. Babylon was 70 years.
That plan has not been fulfilled yet, so.. ultimately.. Matthew 24 has not been fulfilled yet. Because Matthew 24, ends with the Day of the Lord, notably the 6th seal of Revelation.

All second coming scripture is given to every generation because of the uncertainty we have in when it will happen. We only know signs and they come on like birth pains.
Like birth pains, they do not start at the beginning of the pregnancy and then take a 2000 year calm before poof, suddenly baby.
They start and get worse and closer together until the baby is delivered.
Scripture gives that illustration several times.
Partial preterism doesn't at all fit this illustration, why would God even give it if the hard labor is done at the beginning of the pregnancy and the delivery appears without warning or pain?

Could the Apostles witnessed a revival in Israel that had gone into the Great Tribulation and culminated into the Second coming? Possibly.
But because they didn't see the Fig Tree bring forth new leaves... summer was not near.

Now.. we could be interpreting the fig tree wrong, Personally, I disagree with 1948, as Jesus is not returning to Tel Aviv, or Haifa or any other places that Israel had control of in 1948. Rather Jesus is returning to Jerusalem, which was taken in 1967.

Possibly Coincidentally, though I think there are no coincidences with God, there was a large revival movement that took place starting in 1967 called the Jesus Movement. Jerusalem was bringing forth new leaves, and the Church was experiencing a revival and bearing fruit at the same time.
It could be coincidence, but I think God was making moves.

Either way, I stress watching and praying for His return, something incompatible with preterism.

I gave you the text. I explained the grammar, which you’ve ignored. The only way for your view to work is to change what Jesus said.

 

[JulieB67]

Can you find in scripture where tribes ever refers to a people other than Israel?

But my original point to you was that it specifically states "all the tribes of the earth shall mourn". Israel is made up of 12, only the House of Judah was in Jerusalem in 70AD. (with Benjamin and some of Levi)

Earth can mean land but it can mean land that covers the entire globe as well.

 

[Hammster]

But my original point to you was that it specifically states "all the tribes of the earth shall mourn". Israel is made up of 12, only the House of Judah was in Jerusalem in 70AD. (with Benjamin and some of Levi)

Earth can mean land but it can mean land that covers the entire globe as well.

All the tribes of the land did mourn. When the destruction came, they all knew that judgment had fallen upon them. There’s nothing in that verse that says it had to be worldwide.

 

[JulieB67]

There’s nothing in that verse that says it had to be worldwide.

How about the next verse- because we know context is important.

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Whenever you see the "four winds" mentioned, it always means the entire earth.

 

[Hammster]

How about the next verse- because we know context is important.

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Whenever you see the "four winds" mentioned, it always means the entire earth.

And that’s happening right now. See Matthew 28:18-20.

 

[JulieB67]

And that’s happening right now.

You can't have it both ways. You are contradicting yourself in the process by telling us that's " happening now" when you just spent the entire thread telling us Matthew 24 already happened. And clearly this verse below is about the Second Advent. You don't have an answer for this verse so you threw in verses from an entirely different chapter which has nothing to do with this verse.

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Christ sending his angels with a sound of the trumpet and gathering his elect from the four winds(the entire earth -meaning the four corners) has nothing to do with Christ telling his disciples to spread the gospel. They are not angels for one thing. There was no trumpet and there was no world wide gathering of the elect.

 

[Hammster]

You can't have it both ways. You are contradicting yourself in the process by telling us that's " happening now" when you just spent the entire thread telling us Matthew 24 already happened. And clearly this verse below is about the Second Advent. You don't have an answer for this verse so you threw in verses from an entirely different chapter which has nothing to do with this verse.

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Christ sending his angels with a sound of the trumpet and gathering his elect from the four winds(the entire earth -meaning the four corners) has nothing to do with Christ telling his disciples to spread the gospel. They are not angels for one thing. There was no trumpet and there was no world wide gathering of the elect.

His messengers are being sent throughout the earth. I’m not sure if you are aware, but angel isn’t necessarily a spiritual being. It really means messenger, and is used that way in various places throughout scripture.

Plus, there’s just no getting around the fact that when Jesus said “this generation” He meant the generation He was speaking to. If we go back to the previous usage, it makes it even more clear.


“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
— Matthew 23:34-36

 

[JulieB67]

His messengers are being sent throughout the earth. I’m not sure if you are aware, but angel isn’t necessarily a spiritual being. It really means messenger, and is used that way in various places throughout scripture

I definitely don't believe angels are just spiritual beings, they have mass, they have bodies, they eat and are sometimes even called men in the bible.

But that doesn't take away my point from that specific verse. There are 4 angels that hold back the four winds. These aren't disciples, or men today. These are specific angels for that time period. Again, you have no real answer to this verse as it applies to Matthew 24,

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The subject is gathering, not spreading the gospel at that point.