This generation

[JulieB67]

"This generation" of the first century is the one which would experience this,

The first century did not experience this verse,

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

And Hammster said this verse is "happening now".

 

[Timtofly]

Don’t be making things up. I showed you the context based on the fig tree parable. You’ve yet to engage with my post or the text. All you’ve done is say that it’s wrong based on some other text. It’s kinda like you are avoiding it. Here it is again:

From verse one to verse 34 there are 14 uses of “you” as a second person plural, meaning “y’all who I’m talking to”.

Here’s the parable you are referring to.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
— Matthew 24:32-33

Based on this, who is it that needs to look for signs? His immediate audience.

Then He says this


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Again, He’s talking to His immediate audience. And when He said this generation, it’s the generation He just told to look for signs.

So grammatically, it has to be that generation to whom He was speaking to.

Grammatically, those reading Matthew would have no use for the warnings. Matthew was composed post 70AD. Since it was not given to express a future that was already past, the future message has not been fulfilled. Can you prove Matthew was written as being totally fulfilled? What use would Matthew be as a fulfilled historical document?

 

[3 Resurrections]

It doesn't matter who "judges who" James himself still called them 'brothers" And his book is directed to them So, why still the distinction if after Christ died and ressurected, they are still being not only addressed but addressed as brothers?

That "judging" matters because Christ made that particular promise. If they were believers, of course Jewish tribal members were "brothers". That's not the point. The 12 tribes were still getting mentioned after Christ's resurrection, because the evangelistic emphasis was still going to the Jews in Jerusalem in the days of the early church - for another 3-1/2 years. That was done in order to fulfill the terms of Daniel's last, 70th week when Christ would "confirm the covenant with many for one week" (from AD 30 to AD 37). That was why Christ told the Canaanite woman that "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Christ was fulfilling the evangelistic emphasis going to Daniel's people in that first 3-1/2 years of His earthly ministry. He was acting as the prophesied "Messenger of the covenant" (Malachi 3:1).

But God later on in AD 37 switched that evangelistic emphasis over to the Gentile nations by commissioning Paul in Jerusalem's temple to leave Jerusalem and go to the Gentiles (Acts 22:21). After that, the ethnic "12 tribes of Israel" was a moot point, because the Jewish tribes and their continued rejection of Christ's New Covenant had sealed their doom when they would be burned up, "both root and branch".

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It's hyperbole. Heaven and earth passing away is used also in Luke:

Luk 16:17 “And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

In Matthew:

Mat 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The meaning is the same. It would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the prophecy not to be fulfilled.

No, it is not hyperbole. What Jesus taught in Matthew 24:35-39, which is that His second coming would result in heaven and earth passing away, is the same thing that Peter taught here about what will happen at the second coming of Christ:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Heaven and earth will be burned up when He returns and that will result in them passing away in favor of the new heavens and new earth. That is what Jesus taught as well. In Matthew 24:37-39 He indicated that all unbelievers will be killed when He returns and that lines up with heaven and earth passing away.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The first century did not experience this verse,

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Well, Christ's bodily return was supposed to take place while there was still an eastern gate at the inner court of Zerubbabel's temple that was still in existence. That was the meaning behind the required worship of the people at that eastern gate in Ezekiel 46:1-3, which was supposed to be shut all the time except for the Sabbaths and the new moons. That gate was reserved only for the Prince to enter and to leave by that same gate. All of that was a picture of WHERE and WHEN the bodily returning Christ would return to resurrect and to gather His elect from the four winds to that single location.

Since that particular temple and that inner court and its eastern gate was torn down to the last stone at the end of AD 70, that means its predicted use was fulfilled by then by a bodily-returning Christ. (Which is not the same as His third coming in our future).

 

[Timtofly]

Nations are the people. People connected by a certain language, culture, lineal descent from an ancestor, etc.. A nation can reside in a single country or it can be scattered among several countries. A country may contain one nation or multiple nations. Today the word nation can also be used to describe a physical/political country, but in the Bible it always refers to a people group.

You are the one claiming Israel is not a nation.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I prefer to let scripture interpret scripture. If you can show how the other instances don't mean the generation that generation He’s talking to, I’ll be willing to listen.

I already showed the context of what "this generation" refers to. It refers to a type of people going all the way back to Cain (Matt 23:36) who mistreat and kill innocent people.

When you get a challenge to your view, you just brush it off instead of addressing it. This is typical of you. Does interpreting scripture with scripture not include using the context of the surrounding verses of a given verse as an aid to understand that verse (in this case Matthew 24:34)?

Has heaven and earth already passed away? What was the day or hour that Jesus said no one knew about except for the Father? Did that day or hour already come? If so, how exactly? Did the angels already gather the elect from heaven and earth? If so, when and how?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I know that you’ve misinterpreted the OD because you’ve misinterpreted “this generation”. That’s just at face value.

And, yet, you do nothing to prove that. It's just your opinion. You seem to think having an opinion is enough and you don't need to back it up.

As to the gathering,

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
— Matthew 28:18-20

Where does that say anything about the angels gathering the elect? Mark 13:27 says the elect are gathered from throughout heaven and earth. What is your explanation for that? I believe it should be clear that it's talking about the same thing that Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4:14-17 which is that we (believers) will all be gathered to meet Christ "in the air" when He returns in the future.

 

[JulieB67]

That "judging" matters because Christ made that particular promise. If they were believers, of course Jewish tribal members were "brothers".

Again, we are talking about the House of Israel, not just the tribe of Judah and "Jewish" people.

But God later on in AD 37 switched that evangelistic emphasis over to the Gentile nations by commissioning Paul in Jerusalem's temple to leave Jerusalem and go to the Gentiles (Acts 22:21). After that, the ethnic "12 tribes of Israel" was a moot point,

It's thought that the book of James was written after AD 37 (mid 40's possibly) and with it being addressed to the entire house of Israel (scattered abroad) and not just Jews in Jerusalem it is not a moot point. And yes, any believing member of the House of Israel is a certainly a Christian but to say they don't factor in the NT is not true.

 

[HTacianas]

No, it is not hyperbole. What Jesus taught in Matthew 24:35-39, which is that His second coming would result in heaven and earth passing away, is the same thing that Peter taught here about what will happen at the second coming of Christ:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Heaven and earth will be burned up when He returns and that will result in them passing away in favor of the new heavens and new earth. That is what Jesus taught as well. In Matthew 24:37-39 He indicated that all unbelievers will be killed when He returns and that lines up with heaven and earth passing away.

Jesus also said:

Mat 24:16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

If the entire earth were to be utterly destroyed it would do little good for someone to "flee to the mountains". So obviously it has some other meaning.

 

[JosephZ]

You are the one claiming Israel is not a nation.

No, I said that God never intended for their to be a physical or political country called Israel in response to what you said about John not seeing Israel becoming a nation during the first century.

John did not see Israel become a nation at any time during the first century.

I responded with:

Keep in mind when reading this that when you see the word “nation” in the context of Scripture that it does not have the same meaning as the English word "country" (which usually denotes a place of fixed borders and stable government), but rather of a people or nationality. God never intended for their to be a physical or political country called Israel.

 

[DavidPT]

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Preterists undeniably do not grasp what Jesus is predicting in the passage above even though the text is quite clear about it.

As if verse 28 is applicable and came to pass in 70 AD.

As if the kingdom of God is nigh at hand, that this pertains to 70 AD.

As if heaven and earth passed away in 70 AD, which BTW, is connected with verse 32.

As if verse 34 is applicable to the unbelieving Jews in the first century and what happened to a vast number of them in 70 AD.

As if for as a snare 70 AD came on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

As if in 70 AD unbelieving Jews were to watch, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

After all, 70 AD involved bad things that happened to unbelieving Jews at the time, except not one single verse above is pertaining to any of that, including verse 32. Jesus didn't stay stuck in the first century and unable to predict events beyond 70 AD. In the verses above He is meaning a time beyond that of verse 20 which does pertain to events involving the first century and 70 AD. Some interpreters apparently do not fully grasp how context works. It is out of context, pertaining to the verses surrounding verse 32, to have that verse involving the first century and 70 AD when verses 28-31 and verses 33-36 are obviously not pertaining to the first century and what happened in 70 AD.

The OP and some others around here would have us make the same mistake they make, concerning verse 32 above, and that is, interpret it out of context, just disregard context all together as if Jesus would rather confuse us rather than make things clear to us instead.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I did read what came before and after. That’s how I know how Jesus uses “this generation”.

Since Matthew 24 isn’t about His second coming, your point is moot.

Matthew 24 is partially about His second coming.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If this isn't about His second coming then do you think the following passage which also mention His coming and the gathering of His people is not about His second coming, either?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[3 Resurrections]

2. For Jesus to have known when these things would happen when He professed He didn't know.

Jesus didn't know at the time He spoke those words. But He DID know the time of His return after His ascension. How do we know this? Because Jesus told John in Revelation 1:1 that God had given Him that information to pass on to John, who would himself then pass on that information to the believers.

When we read 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4, the believers were well aware of the time and the season - and the day of the Lord's coming - of which they were not ignorant at that point. It was just as Daniel 12:10 once said about those times approaching the shattering of Daniel's people and the resurrection at that time. "None of the wicked shall understand, but the righteous shall understand."

 

[JulieB67]

(Which is not the same as His third coming in our future).

Third coming, ok, got it.

 

[3 Resurrections]

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Not quite accurate. A better translation...

"Watch therefore at every season praying, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things which are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

And Christ included His own return in that list of "all these things", as well as all the other disasters which were soon about to happen for that generation.

 

[Hammster]

Grammatically, those reading Matthew would have no use for the warnings. Matthew was composed post 70AD. Since it was not given to express a future that was already past, the future message has not been fulfilled. Can you prove Matthew was written as being totally fulfilled? What use would Matthew be as a fulfilled historical document?

It wasn’t written post 70 AD. But to your question, it’s the same use as all other fulfilled prophecy. And it was very useful to the original audience. If nothing else, they knew when to flee Judea.

 

[DavidPT]

Not quite accurate. A better translation...

"Watch therefore at every season praying, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things which are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

And Christ included His own return in that list of "all these things", as well as all the other disasters which were soon about to happen for that generation.

Maybe the KJV is not an accurate translation of that verse, I don't know. But even if it isn't, I don't see how that changes anything one way or the other?

Bad things happened to unbelieving Jews in the first century, especially involving what happened in 70 AD. Except the Son of man is meaning Jesus and unbelieving Jews rejected Him. Therefore, nothing pertaining to this verse above involves unbelieving Jews in the first century. In the Discourse it is the NT church being addressed, not unbelieving Jews. There were no unbelieving Jews sitting among them asking questions nor listening to what Jesus was saying privately to His disciples at the time. Unbelieving Jews, if they rejected Jesus, and they did, they certainly wouldn't be heeding any of His warnings for certain.

 

[Hammster]

Has heaven and earth already passed away? What was the day or hour that Jesus said no one knew about except for the Father? Did that day or hour already come? If so, how exactly? Did the angels already gather the elect from heaven and earth? If so, when and how?

Heaven and earth have not passed away. I’m not sure why you think they should. Jesus didn’t know the day and hour. He didn’t say any more than that. He did, however, say that those things would take place within that generation. The angels (messengers) are currently spreading the gospel, which is necessary to collect the elect.

 

[Hammster]

I already showed the context of what "this generation" refers to. It refers to a type of people going all the way back to Cain (Matt 23:36) who mistreat and kill innocent people.

When you get a challenge to your view, you just brush it off instead of addressing it. This is typical of you. Does interpreting scripture with scripture not include using the context of the surrounding verses of a given verse as an aid to understand that verse (in this case Matthew 24:34)?

Has heaven and earth already passed away? What was the day or hour that Jesus said no one knew about except for the Father? Did that day or hour already come? If so, how exactly? Did the angels already gather the elect from heaven and earth? If so, when and how?

Here’s more detail, using the actual text (ICYMI)

From verse one to verse 34 there are 14 uses of “you” as a second person plural, meaning “y’all who I’m talking to”.

Here’s the parable you are referring to.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
— Matthew 24:32-33

Based on this, who is it that needs to look for signs? His immediate audience.

Then He says this


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Again, He’s talking to His immediate audience. And when He said this generation, it’s the generation He just told to look for signs.

So grammatically, it has to be that generation to whom He was speaking to.