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Featured "THIS GENERATION" in Bible

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Just the Jews of the 1st Century

    34.6%
  2. Both Jews and Gentiles of 1st century

    15.4%
  3. Just the Gentiles in 1st century

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. The whole world

    11.5%
  5. I am not sure but am willing to learn

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Other [please explain]

    38.5%
  1. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is a commonly used prophetic genre called "prophetic past tense." it is not even supposed to have already happened. This is prophecy.
     
  2. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Luke 11:29
    • "And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet."
    This Greek word [genea] is the exact same word from the root meaning kin. It is the same word found in Matthew chapter 24 translated generation. Was Christ saying there would no sign given to the wise men, the Apostles, or the 70 disciples that He sent out to witness two by two? Of course not. Yet they were physically part of the literal span of time of that day. But they were not part of generation that Christ was speaking of. The evil and adulterous generation (family) of the Serpent shall not receive a sign except for that of His crucifixion, as Jonas the prophet (the Scripture record) illustrated spending three days and nights in a fish. While the generation or family of Christ indeed have seen the signs (Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:4) of their deliverance. This generation defines a continuing moral classification of people, as illustrated by many Scriptures. That should be proof enough for any logical thinking person that this generation was not referring to men of one specific time period. If we only understand the word generation to mean those living there at the time (as some insist we must), then none of the Apostles, nor anyone else in that day or that generation could escape the damnation of hell. The truth is a lot less complicated, and in total agreement will the whole of Scripture. Not one jot or tittle of it shall fail until all be fulfilled.

    Luke 21:32-34
    • "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    • Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    • And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."
    Again, this word translated generation is [genea], same as it is in Matthew 24 often used to express family relationship or posterity. This definition is also clearly demonstrated in the Septuagint, where in passages like Genesis 43:7 declaring, "The man asked us straitly of our kindred," the word kindred is [genea]. Or in Numbers 10:30, "I will depart to my own kindred." Again, Kindred is the word [genea]. Likewise in Leviticus 20:18, "Both shall be cut off from their people." Here, the word people is [genea]. I quote the Septuagint only to demonstrate that clearly, the meaning of this word was clearly known of old, and used to denote a family relationship. Thus it cannot be scholastically alleged that it must mean the short term generation of a man’s life.

    Luke 7:30-35
    • But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
    • And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like
    • They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
    • For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
    • The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
    • But wisdom is justified of all her children."
    Were the Apostles the men of this generation? If we are to understand generation the way Praeterists do, Absolutely! But they are not who Christ is talking about because He is speaking of a generation or family of evil, the children or seed of Satan. God's word boldly declares that Christians are a chosen generation. So ask yourself a simple question. How can the people living at the time of Christ be both called of God a chosen generation, and yet also be a generation that cannot escape the damnation of hell? The obvious answer is that they can't. For they are two separate generations or families that Christ spoke about. Would we say that "everyone" living there at the time must be part of the chosen generation just because someone arrogantly insists the word generation demands it? Not if we use common sense. The chosen generation is the elect family of God. It's not everyone living in that physical time period, nor was it only designating people of that time period.

    1st Peter 2:9

    • "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:"
    Here we see the truth of the matter. Only the true believers are the [eklektos genos] or chosen generation. Not everyone at the time that this was written, but everyone throughout time who were Predestinated to be of the family of God (Galatians 3:26-29; 1st John 3:9-10). Because we have two distinct generations coexisting in this world. A generation of evil that cannot escape the damnation of hell, and a chosen generation of God that will inherit an everlasting possession that was purchased by Christ. Both these generations or families spans eons of time.

    Philippians 2:15
    • "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;"
    You may not have know it but that Greek word that is translated nation, is the exact same Greek word [genea] that is translated generation in Matthew 24. It is clearly illustrating the crooked and perverse people who are the family or children of evil. This is that very same [genea] that shall not pass until all be fulfilled, and the same family the saints must live in the midst of until the end. Note that here in Philippians it is contrasted with "the sons of God," the children who shine as lights among them. The classic illustration of this contrast is found in the book of Luke, chapter 16:

    Luke 16:8
    • "And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."
    Again, this is the exact same word [genea] that is found in Matthew chapter 24. It speaks of the wicked in their generation or family being wiser than the children of light. In other words, it's illustrating that in certain ways, the seed or children of God are not as smart as the seed or children of the Devil. So it's impossible that this word [genea] as used here, refers to a literal person's life span or generation as the word is understood by many. Comparing Scripture with Scripture, it would be ludicrous for anyone to insist that the word generation always meant a present or contemporary generation of people in these passages, considering all the pertinent Scriptures that use the word. Yet there are many that choose to make such untenable arguments. Nevertheless:

    Number one: While some make the claim that the end of the age was in 70 AD, there is not one single Scripture that supports that conclusion, and many Scriptures that preclude it. There was instituted a new dispensation (age) when Christ died, was resurrected, and sent His holy Spirit that the church go forth to witness with power. But there was no new dispensation or age instituted years later in 70 AD.

    Number two: There is nothing in Scripture that declares that the word translated generation must always be understood to mean the contemporary people or their time period, and plenty of Scriptures that precludes it (as I've clearly shown).

    Number three: There is abundant proof texts in Scripture that the entire New Testament period was (and still is) the end times, the last days, and the last age, indicating that there would not be any other age following this one. Except of course, "the age to come," which is Christ's return and consummation of eternal life. That is when all will be fulfilled as required by Matthew 24, and indeed by all of Scripture. That is when this evil generation shall finally pass away and when the kingdom will be delivered up to the father. This will occur at 'The last Day.'

    Revelation 6:11
    • "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
    When will all be fulfilled? It is when this evil generation is no longer ruling with their prince. In other words, when Christ returns. For there is this age, the age to come, and no age in between. That's the whole purpose of God using the term "last days" to signify that there are no more days after these New Testament days. There are no more dispensations. It is self-evident that contrary to interpretive license, the age of the last days was instituted by the death and resurrection of Christ, not in 70 AD. No matter what any theologian (Reformed or otherwise) may postulate, Scripture must interpret Scripture. And the age to come is at the end of this age when Christ returns. The generation that will not pass till all be fulfilled is the generation that the entire chapter of Matthew 24 so vividly warned the church against. In context, it was the coming false prophets, false teachers, deceivers, false Christs, abominations, great tribulation, and all that this evil family would bring forth against Christ. Though it will not pass until Christ's return, yet the kingdom ultimately triumphs. It is then, and only then, that 'all' will be fulfilled as required by Christ's prophesy. Then and only then will this evil and adulterous generation/family pass. Selah!
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Please cite your source for this.

    I get it’s what you believe.
    Does anybody else?
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Such as?
     
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Isaiah 10 opens with a prophecy about "the Assyrian," which is clearly couched in the future tense.

    5 "Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hand is My indignation. 6 I will send him against an ungodly nation, And against the people of My wrath I will give him charge, To seize the spoil, to take the prey, And to tread them down like the mire of the streets. 7 Yet he does not mean so, Nor does his heart think so; But it is in his heart to destroy, And cut off not a few nations. 8 For he says, 'Are not my princes altogether kings? 9 Is not Calno like Carchemish? Is not Hamath like Arpad? Is not Samaria like Damascus? 10 As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, Whose carved images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria, 11 As I have done to Samaria and her idols, Shall I not do also to Jerusalem and her idols?' " 12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the LORD has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, that He will say, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks." Isaiah 10:5-12


    It continues, still in the future tense:

    16 Therefore the Lord, the Lord of hosts, Will send leanness among his fat ones; And under his glory He will kindle a burning Like the burning of a fire. 17 So the Light of Israel will be for a fire, And his Holy One for a flame; It will burn and devour His thorns and his briers in one day. 18 And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field, Both soul and body; And they will be as when a sick man wastes away. 19 Then the rest of the trees of his forest Will be so few in number That a child may write them. 20 And it shall come to pass in that day That the remnant of Israel, And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob, Will never again depend on him who defeated them, But will depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. Isaiah 10:16-20

    And:

    24 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD of hosts: "O My people, who dwell in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrian. He shall strike you with a rod and lift up his staff against you, in the manner of Egypt. 25 For yet a very little while and the indignation will cease, as will My anger in their destruction." 26 And the LORD of hosts will stir up a scourge for him like the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb; as His rod was on the sea, so will He lift it up in the manner of Egypt. 27 It shall come to pass in that day That his burden will be taken away from your shoulder, And his yoke from your neck, And the yoke will be destroyed because of the anointing oil. Isaiah 10:24-27

    But then, while obviously still talking about the coming evil figure, it suddenly shifts to the past tense:

    28 He has come to Aiath, He has passed Migron; At Michmash he has attended to his equipment. 29 They have gone along the ridge, They have taken up lodging at Geba. Ramah is afraid, Gibeah of Saul has fled. 30 Lift up your voice, O daughter of Gallim! Cause it to be heard as far as Laish-- O poor Anathoth! 31 Madmenah has fled, The inhabitants of Gebim seek refuge. Isaiah 10:28-31

    And then completes the prophecy in the future tense:


    32 As yet he will remain at Nob that day; He will shake his fist at the mount of the daughter of Zion, The hill of Jerusalem. 33 Behold, the Lord, The LORD of hosts, Will lop off the bough with terror; Those of high stature will be hewn down, And the haughty will be humbled. 34 He will cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, And Lebanon will fall by the Mighty One. Isaiah 10:32-34



    This is a clear case of "the prophetic past tense."

    And it is far from the only one. it is just the first case that came to my mind.
     
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  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Oh, I understand what prophetic perfect tense is (or prophetic past tense as you call it)

    I’m asking for your source that teaches it applies to 2 Samuel 22 they way you say it does.

    Who else teaches this?
     
  7. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Who taught a concept is truly immaterial. The only significant matter is whether or not the scriptures teach (or in this case, use) it.

    But a quick check shows that this has been taught at least as far back at the nineteenth century, When William Kelly, the most prominent futurist of that century, wrote:

    "But at this point it were well to heed the remarkable manner in which the Spirit of God has put together the two next chapters. Certainly such a conjunction is not after the manner of men. 2 Samuel 22 consists, as is well known, of portions substantially given again in the Book of Psalms. Thus Psalm 18 is made here more striking because it is put along with the last words, as they are called, of David, in 2 Samuel 23. Now a comparison of these two will reward every spiritual mind. For what is the distinctive point of 2 Samuel 22? The identification of Israel's history with David as the type of the Messiah. Nothing can be more striking to any person that would patiently and intelligently meditate the chapter than the remarkable way in which the grand events of the history of Israel — their deliverance from Egypt, their being brought through the Red Sea, the defeat of their enemies — are all blended with the Messiah, first entering into the sorrows and troubles of the people, then brought out of them at last to be their deliverer, the head not only of Israel but of the Gentiles. Here therefore we find a course of sorrow and of suffering that ends in joy and triumph."

    source:
    2 Samuel
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Interesting take... but vastly different from yours.

    Got anyone who teaches what you claim?
    Or is this of your own private interpretation?

    That is what I'm attempting to get at... it seems to be you are fully alone in assigning "past perfect" to 2 Samuel 22, for I can find no other like interpretation anywhere, (and it appears neither can you).

    In contrast, there are multiple scholars, commentaries and the like that teach the interpretation I also hold for this, and other OT passages with such apocalyptic imagery.

    But, I get what you don't... you're stuck... you absolutely cannot assign or accept apocalyptic imagery as symbolic or metaphor ANYWHERE in scripture, regardless of how many scholars, commentators, Bible expositors have tested, accepted and employed this widely held and time tested interpretive hermeneutic, for doing so would completely upend your entire eschatological position, so you must dig in those heels and desperately seek an alternative, no matter how far fetched and no matter how unique and unheld by the rest of Christendom.

    Wrong, But Strong, you are.
    And I get why.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
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  9. RACarvalho

    RACarvalho New Member

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    The generation Jesus was ref. to was that generation living in His days.
    Luke 21:20 states that the "Abomination of Desolation" is Jerusalem surrounded by armies, which happened in 66 (when the believers fled Jerusalem because of this prophecy) and then in 70 for the final destruction.
    Jesus was responding the question about the end of the time of Jew witnessing.
    it's 100% in accord with Daniel 9.
    Futurism interpretation was created in 1590 by the Jesuits to destroy the Protestant witnessing that the popery is the antichrist that was to come.
     
  10. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Actually, Kelly indeed taught that this passage was speaking of the end times. Read it again. He was, in actual fact, the main teacher who introduced me to eschatology, for when I was young I was given a set of his commentaries on the prophetic scriptures.
     
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  11. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What is the Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32:1–43)?

    "The song begins with a universal call to listen, followed by praise of the just, faithful, and upright God (Deuteronomy 32:1–4). In contrast to God’s faithfulness is Israel’s unfaithfulness (verses 5–6). The song proceeds to recite the history of Israel from their time of bondage in Egypt, through their wilderness wanderings, to their established place in the Promised Land (verses 7–14). The Song of Moses then becomes prophetic: Israel’s future ingratitude and idolatry are predicted, as are the judgments of God for their sin (verses 15–31). Then God promises to avenge Israel against their (and His) enemies, showing compassion on His people (verses 32–42). The song ends on a joyful note, as God’s punishment is past, righteousness is restored, and the land of Israel cleansed (verse 43)."

    Deuteronomy 32 alludes to Deuteronomy 4 and Genesis 49 all dealing with the end of the Old Mosaic Covenant age

    Matthew 5:18. Predicts the end of the law when all of the law is fulfilled. But Jesus never predicts the end of the prophets. The law, the pentateuch the books of Moses were all fulfilled and hence the Old Mosaic Covenant Law was abolished in seventy ad. However, the PROPHETS are still live.
     
  12. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    May help to remember that Jesus was God's word Incarnate. Jesus was the word of God made flesh. He was the living breathing embodiment of Torah, and the prophets, the entire Tanakh.

    Almost nothing that he ever said was just a random comment. Instead, almost everything or perhaps everything was an illusion to the Old Testament.

    So one cannot interpret Jesus is words directly at face value. Everytime Jesus says something you have to listen to what he says. Think about it and flip back to the Old Testament and find the verse or verses he was alluding to. Only then can you discern his meaning?

    For example, the son of man coming on the clouds. Alludes to Daniel 7. In Daniels, 7, when the son of man comes on the clouds. He is accepted into God's throne room sits at God's right hand in power and glory.

    So if one is not fooled, or duped by direct literal interpretation. But instead one follows the allusory allusion reference. That coming on the clouds. Alludes to the fulfillment of Daniel 7. 70 AD VINDICATED Jesus. By the punishment of all those responsible for the crucifixion.

    It was a spiritual event. Not a direct physical literal one. Jesus was VINDICATED proved to be glorified sitting at the right hand of God in heaven.

    In fact, the coming is not even to Earth It's a coming into God's throne room in heaven. The OTHER way, so to speak.

    13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
     
  13. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32. Is especially important because it eludes to the DIVINE COUNCIL imagery of the Old Testament

    http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/Deuteronomy32OTWorldview.pdf

    at the dispersal at the Tower of Babel. God assigned all of the Gentile Nations to What are the equivalent of arch Angels? The Prince of Persia, the Prince of Greece.

    What pagans called? Ahura Mazda. And Zeus. Were those divine council members to whom God assigned the Gentile nations after the tower of babel. Meanwhile, of course, God himself directly chose Abraham and Israel, as his people. His portion of humanity.

    Of course, Deuteronomy 32 alludes to the Divine Council, which alludes to Psalm 82.

    As God judged the gods of Egypt during the first physical exodus. So, in the first century God judged the Pagan gods. The Pagan Gods were destroyed and all spiritual authority was given to Jesus instead. Nobody worships Zeus or Ahura Mazda today? And according to the Bible if they appear to do so they do so. Emptily.

    Such was the official spiritual founding of the Kingdom of. God through Jesus on Earth. That Kingdom has no end, although there will be a 1000 year Millennial age of that Kingdom. When it not only exists but also reigns in power.

    Obviously, the Millennium ends. But the Kingdom of God through Jesus is promised to have no end as the Creed states. So the Kingdom. Generally and the Millennium specifically cannot be exactly synonymous. They are NOT identical. The Millennium is just one in age of. The otherwise eternal Kingdom.
     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    This is yet another good example why I myself don't rely on commentators for my understanding of things. Commentators can clearly be wrong at times, and the conclusions this Kelly comes to proves it.

    There is nothing endtimes about 2 Samuel 22 nor Psalms 18. The very first verse in both accounts make that abundantly clear.

    2 Samuel 22:1 And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul

    Psalms 18:1 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, the servant of the LORD, who spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul: And he said,>> I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.


    This is no David vs Saul in the endtimes, but there literally was a David vs Saul in past ancient history. 2 Samuel 22:1 indicates---in the day that the LORD had delivered. How can had delivered not be speaking in past tense? How can that not mean the day in question would already be in the past and fulfilled by this time? Prophecies predict future events, yet there are no future events to predict in 2 Samuel 22 nor Psalms 18, since these accounts are referring to events already in the past at this point.
     
  15. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I haven't read all the posts in this thread as of yet, but as to the posts pertaining to the OP, like you are addressing here, it's refreshing to see that some of you are making good sense out of these things. Good post over all then.
     
  16. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    As to this generation in the Discourse, it matters where Jesus said that in the Discourse and the context He said it in. Though Preterists obviously disagree, it was 2nd coming events context He said that in. It therefore would be out of context for Jesus to have been referring to 2nd coming events surrounding that verse, while at the same time referring to events in the first century as pertaining to this generation. Jesus wouldn't have been speaking in a nonsensical manner like that. The context He said that in has to agree with the context surrounding what He said about this generation.

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    All of the above is 2nd coming context.

    Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    All of the above as well, all the way to the end of the chapter to verse 51, is also 2nd coming context.

    Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    And where in the text did Jesus say this? Clearly within Matthew 24:30-51, contexts involving the 2nd coming.

    The way Preterists try and get around this, there is no 2nd coming context in Matthew 24:30-51. Jesus disagrees though. I'll stick with what Jesus thinks in this case, rather than what Preterists think in this case. That greatly increases my chances of being correct.
     
  17. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That alludes to Daniel 7:13

    was indicated as the Christ. Accepted into God's throne room in Heaven and sat down at God's right hand in heaven.

    That is a coming on the clouds of Heaven, it is on the clouds in heaven to God's throne room in heaven. It's not a physical second coming to Earth.
     
  18. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    The coming in Matthew 24:30 is connected to Daniel 7:13. But not in the way you are thinking. Had not Daniel 7:13 taken place first, Matthew 24:30 would never be able to take place. IOW such as the following.

    There are two events of Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven, not one.


    The first one---

    Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    Which led to the following.

    Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven , and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


    The second one---

    Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Which then leads to the following.

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


    Something of importance to take note of here. In Daniel 7:13-14, His ascension, He did not come already possessing power and great glory. These things were given to Him after He had arrived. In Matthew 24:30 He is coming having already obtained power and great glory. Where did He initially obtain this power and great glory? Daniel 7:13-14 explains where, when, and how. It was after He had ascended to heaven.

    As to what happened in 70 AD, Jesus wouldn't have come in great glory in order to destroy the unbelieving Jews at the time. The great glory part doesn't fit. The great glory part has to do with His return from His ascension, IOW what a lot of us see as the 2nd coming.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
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  19. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, I think that's almost right. :)

    Matthew 24:30 = Daniel 7:13-14 = "coming on the clouds of HEAVEN"
    ...
    Matthew 24:37 = coming to EARTH, at final judgment. When Heaven and Earth pass away.

    In the first case Jesus remains in HEAVEN, although his glorification to the right hand of God in God's throne room in Heaven becomes apparent to everyone on Earth...

    Whereas in the second case Jesus comes to EARTH physically in the flesh in person.

    The first case refers to the year 70 AD, which brought about the downfall of the Sadducees of the temple as well as the Caesars of Rome who brought about the crucifixion.

    70ad was the judgment on. Dynasty of Julius Caesar. As well as the temple establishment. It was the judgment and downfall of both. By which Jesus was vindicated as the Christ as the Messiah by God in heaven.

    The Pharisees, who at one point warned Jesus about the Plottings and scheming's of Herod Managed to survive that judgment through to present day. Modern Jewish rabbis descend from the likes of Rabbi Nicodemus and Gamaliel, as well as Rabbi Zadok, who fasted for the 40 years from the crucifixion to the destruction of the temple. In fact, they actually OBEYED Jesus is command to flee Jerusalem when it was surrounded by Roman armies. They kind of went the opposite direction from the Christians who fled to Pella, but they nevertheless obeyed Jesus's command to flee Jerusalem. And so they survived.

    The judgment of 70 was on the temple and the Sadducees and the dynasty of Julius Caesar. Everybody who brought about the crucifixion was wiped out of human history. That vindicated. Jesus as God's choice for Messiah Christ.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Like I have pointed out in the past, not sure if you saw those posts, the coming in Matthew 24:30 is after the trib of those days. If one concludes the trib of those days involved the judgment in 70 AD, still no way to connect the coming in Matthew 24:30 with that judgment since that coming would be post the judgment in 70 AD. Notice the chronology of events below.

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    The chronology is abundantly clear. First there is the trib of those days. Followed by shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Followed by then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven. Followed by they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


    If the trib of those days involved the judgment in 70 AD, it is impossible, according to the text, for this coming to have involved the judgment in 70 AD.
     
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