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Featured Third Temple Scam in modern Jerusalem?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BABerean2, Oct 11, 2020.

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  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    But the concept of "the" Christ is in the scripture, "Christ the King of Israel" Mark 15:32. "Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews". Therefore "Antichrist" being the the one coming in his own name to be the King of Israel is in the scriptures.
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Antiohcus was not time of the end.

    The transgression of desolation will be the 2Thessalonians2:4 act.

    Later it will be followed up by the abomination of desolation, the image made of the person after he has become the beast.
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The 2300 days is from when the daily sacrifice begins again, then is stopped, then the transgression of desolation takes place, then the temple is cleansed of those things that make it desolate.

    The 2300 days of those things will fit within the 7 year 70th week.

    Antiochus in Daniel 11 committed the abomination of desolation of having a statue image of Zeus placed in the temple. But it was not called the transgression of desolation.

    Antiochus's abomination of desolation prefigures the end times abomination of desolation. But it was not the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8 to take place at the time of the end.
     
  4. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So then god lied to Israel according to you!

    He knew in the OT that Israel would reject the Messiah, He prophesied it and warned of what would happen to Israel. He also prophesied that He would scatter them to the nations and bring them back to their land.

    So according to you He lied when he declared these things because He knew they would reject Jesus:

    Ezekiel 20:36-38
    King James Version

    36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

    37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

    38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

    Jeremiah 31:31-37
    King James Version

    31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

    36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

    37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

    Zechariah 13:8-9
    King James Version

    8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

    9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.


    Romans 11:5-16
    King James Version

    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.


    Pray tell, why should I accept your re-interpretation of Scripture as literal and not what is written as literal?
     
  5. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I never said Zech,. 13 is th e verse but here is the verse again:

    Ezekiel 20:36-38
    King James Version

    36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

    37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

    38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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  7. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes Antiochus IV was at the time of he end of what was being prophesied! It was at the end of the reign of the Seleucus dynasty over Israel!

    Your problem here is faulty exegesis! You are taking that little horn out of its context and forcing it to be an end time ruler when a careful reading shows it cannot be!

    Daniel 8:

    3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

    4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

    5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

    6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

    7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

    8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

    10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

    11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

    12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

    13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

    16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

    17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

    18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

    19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

    20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

    21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

    22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

    23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

    25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


    Now we know that the ram with two horns is the Medeo Persian Empire.

    The goat with the horn is Greece under Alexander the Great who conquered the Medeo Persian Empire. (verses 7-8)

    The notable horn (alexander) was broken and four notable ones took its place (verse 8)
    , Ptolemy I, Seleucus I, Antigonus I, and Lysimachus.

    Verses 9-14 is a commentary about one who rises out of the four! that would be Antiochus who was part of the Seleucid dynasty! He matched all the cruelty said here!

    Verses 23-25 speaks of a king of fierce countenance! When dies he reign? At the latter time of their kingdom! Who is the their kingdom ? Ptolemy I, Seleucus I, Antigonus I, and Lysimachus.

    Antiochus IV was one of the last kings of the Seleucid dynasty (at the latter time of their kingdom) who reigned from 175-164 B.C.

    When the language shows this is a continuous commentary as it clearly does in Daniel 8 we cannot without harming the Scriptures reinterpret them to mean someone else in another time period!
     
  8. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I can quote you dozens of passages where god separates HImself from the nation of Israel! And then I can show you dozens of verses that show God will once again restore the nation of Israel to HImself!

    These are the facts of teh OT without any interpreting them but simply accepting them as God inspired them!
     
  9. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well I await you showing me the verse that says it is when the sacrifice begins AGAIN and is stopped!

    Keeping Daniel 8 in context it is Atiochus! As I showed you in the answer prior to this one!

    8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

    10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

    11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

    12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


    This is one continuous narrative. Alexander, then the four generals, then Antiochus!

    Remember Gods Word says the little horn here comes out of the four notable ones! Jewish and Greek History showed antiochus fulfilled this prophecy to the letter!

    13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Those were four kingdoms, not one. Historic to us.

    22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

    Verse 23 is about one kingdom. That of the transgressors. The transgressors are the ten kings in Daniel 7, and the little horn. The one kingdom, is the end times version of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7, the Roman Empire, currently in the form of the EU.

    In the latter time of the EU, the ten kings will be in place, and the one leader over them the little horn will stand up, an idiom for gets ready to go to war.

    The transgression of desolation by the little horn person will be the 2Thessalonians2:4 act, after he will become the Antichrist, King of Israel/Messiah (thought to be by the Jews).
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Is not Antiochus. Antiochus was not that powerful, and backed down from the Roman senior representative (on the prospect of having to go to war against Rome) in the famous line in the sand event.

    What Daniel 8:9 is indicating is "geographically" where the little horn person will
    bring his army from. It will be from Greece, the eastern most frontier of the EU.

    The little horn person at the end of his time, will be the beast of Revelation who attempts to make war on Jesus.

    Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What the Psalm 118 is indicating is that God knew ahead of time that the Jews would reject Jesus. Isn't that what you are trying to point out mkgal1 ?
     
  13. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Uh....no, God's words were proven true "according to me". We wouldn't have our Christianity today, had it not been for His faithful remnant.

    He "took the Kingdom of God" away from the apostate religious leaders and gave it over to His faithful remnant (those who produce much fruit)....in 70 AD. He is faithful....He is sovereign.....He is omnipotent (in my belief).​
    Nope. I'm not suggesting He lied....I'm asserting that He fulfilled His word beautifully and powerfully (despite the fact that others are still waiting as they can't see how glorious His power and sovereignty is).​
     
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  14. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    You wrote:
     
  15. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Okay....so I'm presuming that you're interpreting: "I will bring you into the bond of the covenant" to = "God will force them into the bond of covenant ".....but, if that were the case, God could've saved thousands of years and thousands of lives if He forced people into honoring God's covenants. But I don't believe God forces His will on humanity. He loves us....and it's not love without freedom.

    Lysa TerKeurst ----> Israelite history

     
  16. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes Greece was broken into four separate rulers but still one kingdom as I said! Just the land was divided up into four rulers.

    And out of those four (actually Seleucus) at the latter time of their kingdoms shall the king rise up!

    23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

    Scripture is unambiguously clear-in the latter time of THEIR (the four notable ones) shall the king of fierce countenance arise.

    YOur opinions cannot be brought out of scripture but a total reinterpreting of the passage and the grammar God inspired to have the passage written in!
     
  17. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your reinterpretation of the clear teaching of Daniel 8 says no- But the bible itself says yes.

    YOur history is all wrong! Antiochus did not back down to any Roman. He was busy fighting Ptolemiac Egypt during the Maccabean revolt. The revolt was put down by the Seleucid Armies.

    And it matters not what our opinions of Antiochus are- The bible called hima king of fierce countenance and tp Israel he was!

    But before I answer any more of your posts you need to show historical answers to this:

    21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

    22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

    23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

    25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

    Verse 21 Is Alexander
    verse 22 are Cassander, Ptolemy, Antigonus, and Seleucus
    verse 23
    THE LATTER TIMES OF THER KINGDOM!!!! REFERS DIRECTLY BACK TO VERSE 22.
    VERSE 23 in the later times of the kingdoms of Ptolemy, Seleucus, antigonus and Cassander a king of fierce countenance will arise
    verse 23b -26 describes the exploits of this king who will arise at teh latter time of the four kings!

    Now defend why we should accept your rewrite of this verse. show the four kings that rule that teh king of fierce countenance rises from. This passage says 4 not ten.

    I await your answer.
     
  18. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    vse 22 yes! there are many other prophesies in the OT that shows Israel will reject god (the Messiah) and god would scatter them from the land. And then there are numerous passages where God prophesied that he would gather them back in the latter days to prepare the nation to recieve Jesus. Ez. 20 is one classic where it shows that god will force Israel as a nation into the New covenant.

    33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

    34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

    35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

    36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

    37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

    38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
     
  19. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My bad I forgot to inser Ez. 20:33-38 about being forced into the new covenant.

    but before we discuss any further, I still await you to defend biblically and historically that Daniel 9:24 and 27 have been fulfilled.

    Show the 7 year covenant Jesus made in 27 AD.
    Show that sacrifices ceased in 30 Ad (not their effectiveness but as is written the sacrifices ceased).
    What is THE transgression Israel finished.

    When did Israel seal vision and prophecy?
    When did Israel bring in everlasting righteousness? Remember this is for Daniels people and Jerusalem.
    When did Israel anoint Messiah?

    I await your answers from history and Scripture for these clear statements from Scripture.

    If you allegorize defend the allegorical reinterpretation as more valid than the literal interpretation!
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Yes, Antiohcus backed down. Here is the biblical account of it...

    Daniel 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

    You have never heard of the line in the sand incident? It is an historical event.

    I copied and pasted this...

    An altercation between Antiochus Epiphanes and a Roman ambassador by the name of Gaius Popillius Laenas is the origin of the saying “to draw a line in the sand.” When Antiochus brought his army against Egypt in 168 BC, Popillius stood in his way and gave him a message from the Roman Senate ordering him to stop the attack. Antiochus responded that he would think it over and discuss it with his council, at which point Popillius drew a circle in the sand around Antiochus and told him that, if he did not give the Roman Senate an answer before crossing over the line in the sand, Rome would declare war. Antiochus decided to withdraw as Rome had requested.
     
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