These two beliefs disturb me greatly.

[All4Christ]

I don't think you said anything that was a problem.

I know the OP wanted the Orthodox response to a particular doctrine. And I hope we've given it to him.

The problem is that, according to forum rules, those who hold the doctrine aren't allowed to defend it in here. Human nature being what it often is, though, they often can't help themselves. Without extremely tight moderation (which might get some folks in trouble) there's no way to keep the thread on topic and according to the rules. And I don't want folks to get in trouble for just doing what they can't help themselves from doing anyway.

So unless we had a privilege-only area, this can almost not be discussed. Unfortunately.

But I hope the OP at least got from us what he needed. He's trying to learn Orthodoxy so he should have the chance to do that too.

Perhaps a good topic would be to discuss what Orthodoxy teaches on the matter of salvation of those who have not heard of Christ during their lifetime. It’d be a good topic for St Justin Martyrs as well.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Perhaps a good topic would be to discuss what Orthodoxy teaches on the matter of salvation of those who have not heard of Christ during their lifetime. It’d be a good topic for St Justin Martyrs as well.

I second the notion. it is an important topic after all.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Never said anything about drowning infants. That would be murder and I think only deluded and very pessimistic persons would make that leap. God absolutley forbids human sacrifice.

I expressly pointed out how it was not only possible, but also binding on all men to find out who the benevolent creator and sustainer of all life is. Refusal to do so has no excuse,

It is you that has a strawman argument, you use wrong assumptions and then say,"see this proves it"

You do believe killing infants is the loving thing to do. You're just too scared of your own theology to admit it. It would be impossible for an aborigine to 'know' who Jesus is out of the blue. Theism doesn't save people.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You do believe killing infants is the loving thing to do. You're just too scared of your own theology to admit it. It would be impossible for an aborigine to 'know' who Jesus is out of the blue. Theism doesn't save people.

I don't think it's a good idea to accuse someone of something they say they rejected.

 

[FireDragon76]

This thread may need to be moved to St. Justin's as people are going to want to disagree.

Of course that is not allowed in TAW.

Baptist theology can vary a bit. There are different kinds of Baptists. I was one for decades. But essentially yes, they will mostly say that anyone who, by accident of birth did not hear the Gospel, would be condemned. (By the way, a careful reading of Romans 2 teaches otherwise - people are judged by what they have received and all people have a degree of understanding within their souls. How they react to that shapes the kind of person they are. And it is ALWAYS God's business to judge, not ours. Ever.)

Ironically, they will usually cite "God's sovereignty" as being the basis for the damnation of so many. In a way I think this misses the point. Because indeed, God IS sovereign. He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. The sad thing is the person that assumes God will condemn everyone to eternal torture. What kind of Person do they think God to be?!

By the way, I reached the same logical conclusion under that theology. IF it were true, it WOULD be kinder to murder young children than to allow them to grow up and possibly be "unsaved". Of course, that's a terrible conclusion, and God would never want us to murder children. It did make a loophole for certain OT difficulties to make more sense. But it's easy enough for the human heart to see that something is wrong with such a conclusion.

Of course we leave all judgement in God's hands. We especially trust infants and young children to His mercy, not because they are not legally responsible because of mental incapacity, but because He is good and loving.

And Romans 2 tells us that a person's conscience can either accuse or excuse them in the matter of God's judgement, which will be in His hands only and between Him and each person. Thankfully, He is loving and merciful and desires that men be saved. What that actually looks like in the case of any person is not our place to say.

It's probably why so many Americans are comfortable with cruelty. Generations of Americans have been raised with such "fire insurance" religion. You'ld potentially have to be a bit hard hearted to be able to accept such a cosmic scheme.

 

[Light of the East]

That's why I left the Baptists at 19. I figured out that's what their theology added up to. They talk around it, but at the end of the day, that's what it adds up to. I then spent another 19 years in an agnostic wilderness until I met CS Lewis and Fr Alexander Schmemann.

And..........................

what I mean by this is, so what? How did meeting CS Lewis and Fr. Schmemann change your outlook? What did they say or do that is in opposition to the idea that just about every human being who ever lived is being barbequed right now?

 

[Light of the East]

Thank God it is by Jesus death on the cross, the sinless for the sinner, my debt to God (deserving hell) paid fully by His blood, and the same blood cleanses me of all my unrighteousness, past present and future.

Oh yeah, well.....great for you, not so much for all those who were born in foreign lands to pagan parents. But never mind.....they are of no consequence as long as YOU are getting to heaven, right?

Sorry, that's how I view such a statement.

 

[Light of the East]

I expressly pointed out how it was not only possible, but also binding on all men to find out who the benevolent creator and sustainer of all life is. Refusal to do so has no excuse,

Uh huh......so blinded by sin with natures corrupted by the Fall, we are just supposed to find out about the God who is hidden from us even if we live in a country where the Gospel has never come????

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!!!!!!!

That's like putting a blindfold and five pound weights on the ankles of a long-distance track star and asking him to win a race. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[rusmeister]

And..........................

what I mean by this is, so what? How did meeting CS Lewis and Fr. Schmemann change your outlook? What did they say or do that is in opposition to the idea that just about every human being who ever lived is being barbequed right now?

Too many things to mention offhand in a post. Try reading "The Great Divorce" some time. The balancing of a God Who is both just, and loving and merciful.

 

[Light of the East]

Too many things to mention offhand in a post. Try reading "The Great Divorce" some time. The balancing of a God Who is both just, and loving and merciful.

Sorry, I'm dense. Still makes no sense to me. I've read THE GREAT DIVORCE and it is totally alien to the issue in the OP. According to Orthodox and Catholic soteriology, we do not get a second chance to change our minds after we die. C.S. Lewis was deeply influenced by the sermons of Campbell, who preached apokatastasis. This appears to have colored his writing in THE GREAT DIVORCE. We see it in the character of the man who is urged to give up the little demon he is so in love with. After a great and painful struggle, the demon is turned into an angel and the man enters eternal life.

NOT what the Church of the East or the West teaches, and I am, according to those faiths, bound to believe what they teach or be termed a heretic. There is simply no out from this.

And this is exactly what I have struggled with for a couple of years now......God's justice in creating a cosmos which would have billions of people in it, the great majority of whom will die and be in eternal torment (according to the Church).

Mercy??? Pfffft!!! Horsefeathers!!!!

It would be far more merciful to scourge the wicked for their sins in the presence of those they offended (killed, murdered, aborted, etc.) and then wink them out forever.

 

[rusmeister]

Well, my best understanding of Orthodox theology is that we really don't know everything. We know that we are supposed to prepare for the Last Judgement in this life; we don't know the limits of God's power after our deaths. So while what you say is sort of true, it's not definitive, in Orthodoxy, anyway. We don't have as many details spelled out as the Catholics do.

In Lewis's story, the Last Judgement hasn't happened (yet). It's just a story, meant to illustrate, not be taken as a manual or guidebook. I can think of dozens of stories I have heard in Orthodox tradition that describe people's choices even after death. My favorite is about the onion.

I disagree with you completely, though, in your characterization of the Orthodox Church as adding up to the same condemnation of most that is Baptist teaching. There are a ton of people who are going to be judged according to the law written in their hearts. I think you really underestimate the aspect of God's mercy. And that doesn't mean that "everybody is going to get off scot-free", but that there will be surprises.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sorry, I'm dense. Still makes no sense to me. I've read THE GREAT DIVORCE and it is totally alien to the issue in the OP. According to Orthodox and Catholic soteriology, we do not get a second chance to change our minds after we die. C.S. Lewis was deeply influenced by the sermons of Campbell, who preached apokatastasis. This appears to have colored his writing in THE GREAT DIVORCE. We see it in the character of the man who is urged to give up the little demon he is so in love with. After a great and painful struggle, the demon is turned into an angel and the man enters eternal life.

NOT what the Church of the East or the West teaches, and I am, according to those faiths, bound to believe what they teach or be termed a heretic. There is simply no out from this.

And this is exactly what I have struggled with for a couple of years now......God's justice in creating a cosmos which would have billions of people in it, the great majority of whom will die and be in eternal torment (according to the Church).

Mercy??? Pfffft!!! Horsefeathers!!!!

It would be far more merciful to scourge the wicked for their sins in the presence of those they offended (killed, murdered, aborted, etc.) and then wink them out forever.

I think you need to reread Lewis. I just reread The Great Divorce and it absolutely doesn't teach apokatastasis in that way. even in your example, the man doesn't change.

 

[Light of the East]

I think you need to reread Lewis. I just reread The Great Divorce and it absolutely doesn't teach apokatastasis in that way. even in your example, the man doesn't change.

I don't see how you can say the man doesn't change. He is on the bus that stops at the portals, therefore he is not a "saved" person. He is not a member of the Kingdom of Heaven. But after his encounter with the angel, and his decision to give up the little demon that is on his shoulder, he is changed and enters the Kingdom.

No, Father, this is absolutely teaching the idea that after we die, we get another chance to repent, or change, which is in contradiction to both Orthodox and RC teaching that once we die, we are in the state we will be in forever, either hating God and wanting nothing to do with Him, or loving God and continuing in our theosis.

 

[Light of the East]

In Lewis's story, the Last Judgement hasn't happened (yet). It's just a story, meant to illustrate, not be taken as a manual or guidebook. I can think of dozens of stories I have heard in Orthodox tradition that describe people's choices even after death. My favorite is about the onion.

How do you know the Last Judgment hasn't happened? Is Lewis's story about "Purgatory" or some sort of intermediate state?

What is the story about the onion? I would like to hear that.

I don't mean to be harsh, but I've been beaten for 40 years with the idea that once we die, that's it. We are in the state we are in.....period. It really isn't very encouraging.

 

[Light of the East]

I disagree with you completely, though, in your characterization of the Orthodox Church as adding up to the same condemnation of most that is Baptist teaching. There are a ton of people who are going to be judged according to the law written in their hearts. I think you really underestimate the aspect of God's mercy. And that doesn't mean that "everybody is going to get off scot-free", but that there will be surprises.

Well, that's the part that absolutely terrifies me. When I see how easily I am attracted to the most vile sins (not that I commit them, but there is a part of my heart that really, REALLY would still love to wallow around in the filth) that is scary to me. I might look real good outwardly to people who see me in passing, but I have to deal with desires I constantly find inside, and it ain't good!!!!

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't see how you can say the man doesn't change. He is on the bus that stops at the portals, therefore he is not a "saved" person. He is not a member of the Kingdom of Heaven. But after his encounter with the angel, and his decision to give up the little demon that is on his shoulder, he is changed and enters the Kingdom.

No, Father, this is absolutely teaching the idea that after we die, we get another chance to repent, or change, which is in contradiction to both Orthodox and RC teaching that once we die, we are in the state we will be in forever, either hating God and wanting nothing to do with Him, or loving God and continuing in our theosis.

well, that was not how you presented it. two, Lewis says a lot more in that book, especially the narrator's conversation about what makes hell, actually hell. and three, you are misrepresenting what we say about the afterlife. we do not say that all who are in hades will go to hell in the end. please don't misrepresent what we believe.

 

[Light of the East]

well, that was not how you presented it. two, Lewis says a lot more in that book, especially the narrator's conversation about what makes hell, actually hell. and three, you are misrepresenting what we say about the afterlife. we do not say that all who are in hades will go to hell in the end. please don't misrepresent what we believe.

My apologies. I have no intention....now or in the future, or misrepresenting the Orthodox position.

I am curious about one thing, however. Could you describe the proper Orthodox understanding of the next life. I ask this in regards to there being, according to your previous post, a difference between hades and hell. I was always under the opinion that they were the same place.

Thank you as always.

 

[ArmyMatt]

My apologies. I have no intention....now or in the future, or misrepresenting the Orthodox position.

I am curious about one thing, however. Could you describe the proper Orthodox understanding of the next life. I ask this in regards to there being, according to your previous post, a difference between hades and hell. I was always under the opinion that they were the same place.

Thank you as always.

hades is the foretaste of hell, however, it is possible to go from hades to paradise through the prayers of the Church. it is also possible to be cast into hades only to be saved on Judgment Day. Judgment Day is the day where you go to your eternal state, until that time, we always have hope.

and forgive me, but I know we have discussed this at length before. while I do appreciate a lot of your questions and thoughts on here, you do have to stop bringing up stuff that has already been resolved.

 

[Light of the East]

hades is the foretaste of hell, however, it is possible to go from hades to paradise through the prayers of the Church. it is also possible to be cast into hades only to be saved on Judgment Day. Judgment Day is the day where you go to your eternal state, until that time, we always have hope.

and forgive me, but I know we have discussed this at length before. while I do appreciate a lot of your questions and thoughts on here, you do have to stop bringing up stuff that has already been resolved.

Okay.....I think I got it this time. Try to remember that I am working to overcome some 40 years of very different thinking. Sometimes the truth has to be pounded repeatedly until it sinks in, kind of like a nail being pounded into a piece of hard oak wood.

 

[ttcmacro]

Sorry, I'm dense. Still makes no sense to me. I've read THE GREAT DIVORCE and it is totally alien to the issue in the OP. According to Orthodox and Catholic soteriology, we do not get a second chance to change our minds after we die. C.S. Lewis was deeply influenced by the sermons of Campbell, who preached apokatastasis. This appears to have colored his writing in THE GREAT DIVORCE. We see it in the character of the man who is urged to give up the little demon he is so in love with. After a great and painful struggle, the demon is turned into an angel and the man enters eternal life.

NOT what the Church of the East or the West teaches, and I am, according to those faiths, bound to believe what they teach or be termed a heretic. There is simply no out from this.

And this is exactly what I have struggled with for a couple of years now......God's justice in creating a cosmos which would have billions of people in it, the great majority of whom will die and be in eternal torment (according to the Church).

Mercy??? Pfffft!!! Horsefeathers!!!!

It would be far more merciful to scourge the wicked for their sins in the presence of those they offended (killed, murdered, aborted, etc.) and then wink them out forever.

One of the driving reasons I first started exploring Orthodoxy is this issue, as I was from a Protestant background. It drove me crazy, and almost made me an atheist (or an Episcopalian, which is about the same these days).

I'm pretty sure the Orthodox teaching is not that the great majority of humans will face eternal torment. God is a good God who loves mankind, and desires that all be saved. That doesn't mean all will be saved, as humans can resist. But God is willing to leave the 99 to bring home the 1 lost sheep.