These two beliefs disturb me greatly.

[Jackson Cooper]

I found out recently that my former Sunday school teacher at the Baptist church I grew up in believes that those who have not heard go to Hell. He also believes that infants go to Heaven if they die.
It is better to have never existed than to go to Hell (Matthew 26:24).

About 100 billion humans have lived throughout human history (a broad estimate sure). Most of those never heard of either Jesus nor Yahweh. It would have been physically impossible for them to make a journey to a place where they could hear, even if they knew where to go.

It would have been better for the parents of every single Chinese, Aborigine, Japanese, Indian, Scandinavian, Native American, Polynesian, and African infant to have killed them before they make it to the 'age of accountability'.
The alternative is a 100% chance of going to Hell forever.

Sure, you could say that the parents would be committing a sin by killing their infant, but they are going to Hell anyway so might as well allow someone to make it to Heaven. Saving an infant from drowning would be damning them.

The only thing worse would be to believe that infants go to Hell when they die. Most humans have died well under the age of 1 year, especially when you take into account the number of zygotes that die without the mother even knowing.

I'm disturbed that my church would believe in such a thing. It's not much different than believing God desires for most people to got Hell.

 

[rusmeister]

That's why I left the Baptists at 19. I figured out that's what their theology added up to. They talk around it, but at the end of the day, that's what it adds up to. I then spent another 19 years in an agnostic wilderness until I met CS Lewis and Fr Alexander Schmemann.

 

[R. Hartono]

I humbly say its not our authority to judge where people will go after they die.

 

[r4.h]

I found out recently that my former Sunday school teacher at the Baptist church I grew up in believes that those who have not heard go to Hell. He also believes that infants go to Heaven if they die.
It is better to have never existed than to go to Hell (Matthew 26:24).

About 100 billion humans have lived throughout human history (a broad estimate sure). Most of those never heard of either Jesus nor Yahweh. It would have been physically impossible for them to make a journey to a place where they could hear, even if they knew where to go.

It would have been better for the parents of every single Chinese, Aborigine, Japanese, Indian, Scandinavian, Native American, Polynesian, and African infant to have killed them before they make it to the 'age of accountability'.
The alternative is a 100% chance of going to Hell forever.

Sure, you could say that the parents would be committing a sin by killing their infant, but they are going to Hell anyway so might as well allow someone to make it to Heaven. Saving an infant from drowning would be damning them.

The only thing worse would be to believe that infants go to Hell when they die. Most humans have died well under the age of 1 year, especially when you take into account the number of zygotes that die without the mother even knowing.

I'm disturbed that my church would believe in such a thing. It's not much different than believing God desires for most people to got Hell.

Is it not knee jerk reaction to disbelieve because it is offensive to us? After feeding the multitudes, Jesus began to spell out what it meant to follow Him. At this point nearly all were offended and left.
Only Jesus true followers were left.

It is not wise to ask if we like such and such, we should only ask if it is true. Our feelings, like our taste buds change with our attitude.

Every man that travels to another country is obligated to learn its rules, ignorance is no excuse as many caught with drugs in Bali have found out.

Romans 1:20 says creation alone is enough proof of God, so that none have any excuse to remain ignorant after the age of reason. Even in darkest remote corners of the world men have had awareness there must be God, and that has led them to look for answers that eventually led them to Christ.

The alternative you seem to accept is that All will be saved, but this too has major problems. Does Hitler get to heaven and get to spread his hatred and venom? How can God be good and yet justice slide like some senile old judge? A God like that makes mockery of human suffering at the hands of
wicked men.
Or do you say, only good people should go to heaven? What is the cut off point ? if we only do a few
bad things? I dont know about you, but if it goes by my goodness, ive failed miserably.

Thank God it is by Jesus death on the cross, the sinless for the sinner, my debt to God (deserving hell) paid fully by His blood, and the same blood cleanses me of all my unrighteousness, past present and future.

 

[Haipule]

I don't believe in the Latin word salvationem. I do believe in the biblical Greek word sOtEria. How the transliteration of salvationem came to be the translation, into English, of sOtEria is beyond me!

sOtEria is a very general word meaning: delivered, rescued, made whole, kept safe and sound, etc.

sOtEria has do with every moment of the everyday of our God given lives--in trust!

It never referred to a state of completion which

only post-reform ​

theology teaches(Protestant). Prior to the reform, they taught it as "justification"(Catholicism) which also has nothing to do with sOtEria.

So they, adding a "salvation" to your argument is lame! Take "salvation" out of the picture and it's all God's bees wax!

Your Good!

 

[r4.h]

I don't believe in the Latin word salvationem. I do believe in the biblical Greek word sOtEria. How the transliteration of salvationem came to be the translation, into English, of sOtEria is beyond me!

sOtEria is a very general word meaning: delivered, rescued, made whole, kept safe and sound, etc.

sOtEria has do with every moment of the everyday of our God given lives--in trust!

It never referred to a state of completion which

only post-reform ​

theology teaches(Protestant). Prior to the reform, they taught it as "justification"(Catholicism) which also has nothing to do with sOtEria.

So they, adding a "salvation" to your argument is lame! Take "salvation" out of the picture and it's all God's bees wax!

Your Good!

No need for Jesus then, nothing to be saved from?

I know I needed saving, I know Jesus saved me.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Is it not knee jerk reaction to disbelieve because it is offensive to us? After feeding the multitudes, Jesus began to spell out what it meant to follow Him. At this point nearly all were offended and left.
Only Jesus true followers were left.

It is not wise to ask if we like such and such, we should only ask if it is true. Our feelings, like our taste buds change with our attitude.

Every man that travels to another country is obligated to learn its rules, ignorance is no excuse as many caught with drugs in Bali have found out.

Romans 1:20 says creation alone is enough proof of God, so that none have any excuse to remain ignorant after the age of reason. Even in darkest remote corners of the world men have had awareness there must be God, and that has led them to look for answers that eventually led them to Christ.

The alternative you seem to accept is that All will be saved, but this too has major problems. Does Hitler get to heaven and get to spread his hatred and venom? How can God be good and yet justice slide like some senile old judge? A God like that makes mockery of human suffering at the hands of
wicked men.
Or do you say, only good people should go to heaven? What is the cut off point ? if we only do a few
bad things? I dont know about you, but if it goes by my goodness, ive failed miserably.

Thank God it is by Jesus death on the cross, the sinless for the sinner, my debt to God (deserving hell) paid fully by His blood, and the same blood cleanses me of all my unrighteousness, past present and future.

Wow, straw man. Never did I say that the alternative is all to be saved. I'm Eastern Orthodox, so I'm assuming you don't know anything about how we view salvation.

Secondly, it is true that indigenous humans all seem to have an instinct-like belief in a creator. That doesn't change the fact that it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to know Christ.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Is it not knee jerk reaction to disbelieve because it is offensive to us? After feeding the multitudes, Jesus began to spell out what it meant to follow Him. At this point nearly all were offended and left.
Only Jesus true followers were left.

It is not wise to ask if we like such and such, we should only ask if it is true. Our feelings, like our taste buds change with our attitude.

Every man that travels to another country is obligated to learn its rules, ignorance is no excuse as many caught with drugs in Bali have found out.

Romans 1:20 says creation alone is enough proof of God, so that none have any excuse to remain ignorant after the age of reason. Even in darkest remote corners of the world men have had awareness there must be God, and that has led them to look for answers that eventually led them to Christ.

The alternative you seem to accept is that All will be saved, but this too has major problems. Does Hitler get to heaven and get to spread his hatred and venom? How can God be good and yet justice slide like some senile old judge? A God like that makes mockery of human suffering at the hands of
wicked men.
Or do you say, only good people should go to heaven? What is the cut off point ? if we only do a few
bad things? I dont know about you, but if it goes by my goodness, ive failed miserably.

Thank God it is by Jesus death on the cross, the sinless for the sinner, my debt to God (deserving hell) paid fully by His blood, and the same blood cleanses me of all my unrighteousness, past present and future.

Funny how you condemn Hitler when you literally think it is loving to drown infants.
"Every man that travels to another country is obligated to learn its rules, ignorance is no excuse as many caught with drugs in Bali have found out. "
Again, you ignored that it was impossible for them to learn the rules. Impossible.

 

[r4.h]

Wow, straw man. Never did I say that the alternative is all to be saved. I'm Eastern Orthodox, so I'm assuming you don't know anything about how we view salvation.

Secondly, it is true that indigenous humans all seem to have an instinct-like belief in a creator. That doesn't change the fact that it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to know Christ.

I only asked some questions, no straw man there. If i misunderstood your position i apologize.

Seems like your mind is made up? As you were, carry on....

 

[Jackson Cooper]

I only asked some questions, no straw man there. If i misunderstood your position i apologize.

Seems like your mind is made up? As you were, carry on....

"The alternative you seem to accept is that All will be saved, but this too has major problems. Does Hitler get to heaven and get to spread his hatred and venom? How can God be good and yet justice slide like some senile old judge? A God like that makes mockery of human suffering at the hands of
wicked men."

 

[r4.h]

Funny how you condemn Hitler when you literally think it is loving to drown infants.
"Every man that travels to another country is obligated to learn its rules, ignorance is no excuse as many caught with drugs in Bali have found out. "
Again, you ignored that it was impossible for them to learn the rules. Impossible.

Never said anything about drowning infants. That would be murder and I think only deluded and very pessimistic persons would make that leap. God absolutley forbids human sacrifice.

I expressly pointed out how it was not only possible, but also binding on all men to find out who the benevolent creator and sustainer of all life is. Refusal to do so has no excuse,

It is you that has a strawman argument, you use wrong assumptions and then say,"see this proves it"

 

[Monna]

Caiaphas the high priest was only disturbed about one thing - that Jesus had blasphemed, claiming to be the Christ. (Matt. 26)

Being disturbed didn't prove he was right. Only that he didn't have understanding and insight, let alone the willingness to believe the evidence of the previous three years.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This thread may need to be moved to St. Justin's as people are going to want to disagree.

Of course that is not allowed in TAW.

Baptist theology can vary a bit. There are different kinds of Baptists. I was one for decades. But essentially yes, they will mostly say that anyone who, by accident of birth did not hear the Gospel, would be condemned. (By the way, a careful reading of Romans 2 teaches otherwise - people are judged by what they have received and all people have a degree of understanding within their souls. How they react to that shapes the kind of person they are. And it is ALWAYS God's business to judge, not ours. Ever.)

Ironically, they will usually cite "God's sovereignty" as being the basis for the damnation of so many. In a way I think this misses the point. Because indeed, God IS sovereign. He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. The sad thing is the person that assumes God will condemn everyone to eternal torture. What kind of Person do they think God to be?!

By the way, I reached the same logical conclusion under that theology. IF it were true, it WOULD be kinder to murder young children than to allow them to grow up and possibly be "unsaved". Of course, that's a terrible conclusion, and God would never want us to murder children. It did make a loophole for certain OT difficulties to make more sense. But it's easy enough for the human heart to see that something is wrong with such a conclusion.

Of course we leave all judgement in God's hands. We especially trust infants and young children to His mercy, not because they are not legally responsible because of mental incapacity, but because He is good and loving.

And Romans 2 tells us that a person's conscience can either accuse or excuse them in the matter of God's judgement, which will be in His hands only and between Him and each person. Thankfully, He is loving and merciful and desires that men be saved. What that actually looks like in the case of any person is not our place to say.

 

[ArmyMatt]

indeed, God is sovereign. I think one of the problems is we can assume He shows His sovereignty like an earthly king. and while of course He can, He doesn't.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

The main problem with a understanding such as you say the baptists adhere to is that its a theology which makes God very evil and even more so than humans.
A God who sends infants to eternal punishment doesnt add up with John 3:16 for example.

Christ is so good, I love Christ so much. Hes the purest of the purest. God is just. Thankfully God`s our judge not men.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Never said anything about drowning infants. That would be murder and I think only deluded and very pessimistic persons would make that leap. God absolutley forbids human sacrifice.

I expressly pointed out how it was not only possible, but also binding on all men to find out who the benevolent creator and sustainer of all life is. Refusal to do so has no excuse,

It is you that has a strawman argument, you use wrong assumptions and then say,"see this proves it"

"Is it not knee jerk reaction to disbelieve because it is offensive to us? After feeding the multitudes, Jesus began to spell out what it meant to follow Him. At this point nearly all were offended and left.
Only Jesus true followers were left.

It is not wise to ask if we like such and such, we should only ask if it is true. Our feelings, like our taste buds change with our attitude."
You have a problem with me being disturbed by it being more loving to kill infants? You think somehow a single Aborigine knew who Christ was? Theism doesn't save people.

 

[Haipule]

No need for Jesus then, nothing to be saved from?

I know I needed saving, I know Jesus saved me.

The idea from Scripture is we are being sOtia(passive voice of sOzO usually translated as "saved"): delivered, rescued, kept safe and sound, made whole, every moment of everyday of our lives. I trust that and am quite glad of it.

Being "saved" is not having the golden ticket to heaven when you die complete with the fire insurance! It's about living in the authoritative position of the kingdom of heaven/God now when we live the zOE-life of God's promise. Paradise is the afterlife. Heaven is now and we need the Great and Good Shepherd, Jesus, to lead us onto that narrow path that unfortunately, few find.

Remember that the end game is the Book of Lives and not the Book of Saved People. The ones who live are called sheep and Jesus is the Shepherd. The walking dead are called goats. Goats will go into the Lake of Fire.

Some of us sheep will even wear the Crown of Life.

You can tell the difference between a sheep and a goat by their tails. Goat tails are arrogantly up while sheep tails are humbly down. So turn around and look! Are you a goat, or a sheep!
.

 

[All4Christ]

Just a friendly reminder for everyone to review the Statement of Purpose for The Ancient Way forum. Thanks!

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Just a friendly reminder for everyone to review the Statement of Purpose for The Ancient Way forum. Thanks!

Mea Culpa, bear with me its lent. Ill be gone.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Mea Culpa, bear with me its lent. Ill be gone.

I don't think you said anything that was a problem.

I know the OP wanted the Orthodox response to a particular doctrine. And I hope we've given it to him.

The problem is that, according to forum rules, those who hold the doctrine aren't allowed to defend it in here. Human nature being what it often is, though, they often can't help themselves. Without extremely tight moderation (which might get some folks in trouble) there's no way to keep the thread on topic and according to the rules. And I don't want folks to get in trouble for just doing what they can't help themselves from doing anyway.

So unless we had a privilege-only area, this can almost not be discussed. Unfortunately.

But I hope the OP at least got from us what he needed. He's trying to learn Orthodoxy so he should have the chance to do that too.