(You)My answer to that is that both occur: God causes and we choose what he causes.
I read the above statement and first said to myself "yeah...exactly" then on further review thought it was wrong. A third look and something else came to mind. I get your point but I would add that God creates and we react.
(You) Calvinists, (and I), generally say that the context of 2 Peter 3:9 shows that Peter is there referring to the elect, not the whole world, so that God is longsuffering, not willing that any of the elect should perish. There is much more to that, but that is the short version.
A very insightful understanding of that verse as it is probably looking at the salvation of the elect of Israel in Christ who will escape the destruction of Jerusalem. But the point still stands in that context that noone had to die in that war. All Israel was welcome to accept Jesus.
(You) I think Romans 9 is probably the most plain place, though there are many others in Scripture, to see how God indeed does plan for some to be forever lost. See particularly verses 21 and 22, though I would prefer you read the whole passage to follow his reasoning.
I am familiar with the passage. I still see a creation/response relationship. I mentioned in another post recently that God speaks of future events in the past tense sometimes. To Him, it has already happened. That is why He says "I created pharoah so I might show My power" (not really a quote but paraphrase) God hardened pharoah's heart...pharoah hardened his heart....pharoah's heart was hardened. All 3 are used to describe pharoah's reaction to God's command "let My people go"
(You) For what it is worth, and since I don't know if you have read my posts in the past or not, I would also like to point out that logic itself, even aside from Scripture, but also in concert with Scripture, points to the fact that one way or another, directly or indirectly, God causes all things.
Again, I get your point. Probably the best explanation of Calvin I have ever read. I, obviously, have never studied Calvin myself and probably never will. Not that important. Scripture is important.
Still I see God creates, circumstance gives the opportunity and we choose what God knew we would. But to say God caused it is a bridge too far for me. The same gospel is available to all mankind. If accepted it will produce salvation to anyone and everyone. "Whosoever will may come". But the foreknowledge of God says most will reject it.
Rom 9:20 "...why hast thou made me thus?" Is the cry of the lgbtq community is it not?
Why did God make ME with desires I can't control? But I choose my own response.
Is that inconsistent with Calvin?
These posts can be time consuming...I appreciate your effort to explain your point.
You have to expand the quoted text to see all my comments...I don't really know how to use the editor on this site yet...sorry...never mind I solved it.
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*You* I get your point but I would add that God creates and we react.
Agreed. Of course we do; I meant no differently. However, that does not imply that our reaction is uncaused.
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*You* All Israel was welcome to accept Jesus.
Agreed, again. Just as all sinners are welcome to repent and accept the Gospel of Christ, which yes, is offered to them. The cold fact, though, is that they cannot, and they cannot because they are slaves to sin; they WILL not, unless God changes their heart: regeneration.
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*You* I still see a creation/response relationship.
Of course. Predestination does not imply otherwise. In fact, that is almost ALWAYS the way God accomplishes what he set out to do. Even in the "moment" of salvation, the willed choice of the new believer to turn to Christ is the work of God.
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*You* Still I see God creates, circumstance gives the opportunity and we choose what God knew we would. But to say God caused it is a bridge too far for me.
My Atheist antagonists gleefully yell, "God cannot be both Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent." If they knew the power and goodness of God, they would not quickly try to judge his deeds, but.... they do have a logical point there, which they also put words to: "If God knew ahead that what would happen to (with, by) his creation/creatures/humanity in particular, but he went ahead and created it anyway, then yes, he caused it." This logic is sound, yet the blame for evil cannot be placed at his feet, though they wish to, as if he is the sole causer. We too are causers, but we are also caused. As I have said elsewhere, there is only one First Cause, and that is God. There are no little first causes walking about the earth.
(The Chain of Causality is pervasive. I always smile when I think of the poetic way Atheist cosmologist like to put it when they say, "The 'seeds' of everything precisely as it exists today, were sown in the Big Bang." The logic is sound: Absolutely EVERYTHING is caused, except First Cause. And that being so, First Cause caused EVERYTHING in particular. (Whether one wants to argue as to whether God (First Cause) MEANT to cause every particular thing, is another debate (though intimately related), but I expect you can guess my answer.) I like to say, "Of course God has Foreknowledge -- because he Forecauses!).
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*You* The same gospel is available to all mankind.... "Whosoever will may come".
Agreed, but like you said, who is that? --only the Elect will come, and that, not until they are changed.
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*You* Rom 9:20 "...why hast thou made me thus?" Is the cry of the lgbtq community is it not? Why did God make ME with desires I can't control? But I choose my own response. Is that inconsistent with Calvin?
Not sure what you are referring to by "that", but if you meant: is it consistent with Calvinism that "I choose my own response" even if God made me "with desires I can't control", I would say yes, if you mean what I do by "choose", haha. Sorry --I had to add that, because many many people claim that if God causes our choices, and causes us to choose, they are not choices at all, and we are but robots. With that I vehemently disagree.
