There is "one", (a God) that could predict and know everything from beginning to end...?

[Neogaia777]

If he God "does not" give us foreknowledge of events, or an event, or a choice, so that, "that" will not affect our choice, and we will not choose any differently than we originally would...?

Then, if he "does" give us foreknowledge concerning a certain future event or certain choice, then is it so that we can, or could, or might, make a "different choice" or choose differently in that area...? or concerning that thing, or event, or choice...?

So that it will, or may not, or at least has the chance to "not happen" the way he said...? Or not...? Or what...?

That is something I have wondered for quite a while concerning what God does, or might choose to reveal to us, about the future...

God Bless!

 

[food4thought]

Cause heaven is messed up to...(right now) When earth is perfected, heaven will be, and vice versa...

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but then why should we pray that God's will is done on earth, just as it is in heaven, if in heaven God's will isn't done either? I think it makes more sense to say that God's will is always done in heaven [even Satan cannot do anything outside of what God allows (see Job 1-2)].

I don't think it matters what we do, in that, nothing cannot be outside God's will, if we tried to make a choice that went against his will (just for the sake of it maybe) it really would not (wind up to be) outside his will at all, for he works all out even wrong or sin or disobedience for the goodwill of, if not you, then someone else, or several someone else's, in the end...

This is an area where things get a bit complicated... there is God's will, which is what we all should be doing, and then there is God's plan, which is how God works out His ultimate design in, through, and around our choices.

And why would you want to do bad to yourself, by doing or choosing badly... Just to try and prove that your "free" when your really "not free", (not yet anyway)... That would be very foolish don't you think...? So, it is much better to obey than to disobey... For your only hurting and harming yourself by such actions and are proving or doing nothing by disobedience, other than just hurting yourself...

Of course I would not do bad just to prove I'm free to make bad choices... my pre-Christian life demonstrates totally to me that I am free to do evil things, and I have had more than enough of that, thank you

Even if we did try to make a choice that would be outside his will, (just for the sake of it maybe) it reallly would not be, (outside his will) for he always, "always" knew what you would do or choose in the first place... It would have been all "totally and fully predictable and all fully knowable, way ahead of time", for him... (God the Father anyway)…

Again, there is the good that God wills to be, but is thwarted by sinfulness, and then there is God's plan, which takes into account all our sinful choices yet still brings about God's ultimate design in the end.

God Bless![/QUOTE]

 

[Neogaia777]

If he God "does not" give us foreknowledge of events, or an event, or a choice, so that, "that" will not affect our choice, and we will not choose any differently than we originally would...?

Then, if he "does" give us foreknowledge concerning a certain future event or certain choice, then is it so that we can, or could, or might, make a "different choice" or choose differently in that area...? or concerning that thing, or event, or choice...?

So that it will, or may not, or at least has the chance to "not happen" the way he said...? Or not...? Or what...?

That is something I have wondered for quite a while concerning what God does, or might choose to reveal to us, about the future...

God Bless!

Take dreams for example, (not all dreams), (but some dreams), when you perceive that it might be about a future choice you might make, or you recall it is about a certain choice, right before or just before that choice happens...? Is it a "warning"...? And did it occur so that you might make a different choice that might lead to that dream not coming to pass the way you saw, or what...?

Something I wonder...?

God Bless!

 

[food4thought]

I don't really "want" to be right about this, but think I might be, at least, as far as God the Father is concerned...

I don't want to be right about this, cause I'm afraid it might cause people to "give up" and not try (to be better, to improve, to not sin, all of that)... But I am not one of those though...

I'm reminded of an episode of Star Trek TNG, where a time traveler visits the crew from the past with foreknowledge of and event that they are facing at that time, and Picard talks to the person, the time traveler and tries to get him to help him, and he won't and says he can't cause it would influence his decision(s)... And Picard rightly frustrated, says to him, "If you already know what I/we will choose, how can I make a choice...?" "You won't help me, fine... And says to him, "While you might have foreknowledge of this, I do not... and since you won't help me, I'm going to go with the decision I would have gone with to begin with, regardless of whether you were even here or not... And since I've never been one to play it safe, I chose to try (and save these people, even with the risks involved to the Enterprise), He also says (frustrated) "as far as I'm concerned, my future has not been written yet, so I choose to do what I would have done anyway", regardless of "this" (the time travelers foreknowledge) or his even being there regardless...

And I really hope that's exactly what people would conclude and what they would do (anyway) regardless of "this"...

That's what I'm going to do (about it) anyway...

God Bless!

I just disagree that God's foreknowledge and sovereignty precludes our capacity to choose. I don't think it is the way you perceive it to be at this point... but I could be wrong, too

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but then why should we pray that God's will is done on earth, just as it is in heaven, if in heaven God's will isn't done either? I think it makes more sense to say that God's will is always done in heaven [even Satan cannot do anything outside of what God allows (see Job 1-2)].

When we all get to heaven, or arrive in heaven, (all of us, including those that have died, "in the past" I guess you could say), (for lack of a better term, though it/that (time) might not even apply)... Anyway, when we all get to heaven, or arrive in heaven, it will be in a perfect, perfected state, when we do...

The very fact that God's will has to, (be in a process of) happening, at any point, (in heaven) (and earth) means that it is probably happening at some point, like "now", (in heaven) (and earth) and what is happening on earth, is a reflection of that... And vice-versa, though I think what is happening in heaven, happens "first"...

So, why would "we not pray" for God's will to be done on earth, as it is in heaven...?

Are you saying that there is no point to prayer, or praying, or what...? (cause I'm having a hard time understanding why you/we would "not pray" anyway, regardless)...?

Are you trying to say there is, or would be "no point to prayer or praying"...? (I only say this cause I am a bit confused and am having a hard time following that line of reasoning...?)

This is an area where things get a bit complicated... there is God's will, which is what we all should be doing, and then there is God's plan, which is how God works out His ultimate design in, through, and around our choices.

God the Son's will is what we should be trying to be doing and trying to make happen or come to pass... But nothing is outside God the Father's will, for he makes all for, and causes all to go toward, the "ultimate good" no matter what...

Of course I would not do bad just to prove I'm free to make bad choices... my pre-Christian life demonstrates totally to me that I am free to do evil things, and I have had more than enough of that, thank you

Very glad to hear that, though some might, and I wished to point of the flaw and futility in that...

Again, there is the good that God wills to be, but is thwarted by sinfulness, and then there is God's plan, which takes into account all our sinful choices yet still brings about God's ultimate design in the end.

God Bless!

God the Father's will is not thwarted by anything, but we should all be working toward both God the Son and God the Father's good will regardless... Mainly because we don't know and cannot understand all the marvelous complexities of God's will, other than it is, (for us anyway), to do and be and work towards "good" and what is "always good" and to seek out (always what is) good and do it, or work to make it happen, or come to pass, always... That is God's will "for us"... But God "plan(s)" in that "his ultimate will for himself", is a bit more, way more complex, and complicated, and much more difficult to know...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I just disagree that God's foreknowledge and sovereignty precludes our capacity to choose. I don't think it is the way you perceive it to be at this point... but I could be wrong, too

To tell the truth, I'm not too sure either, but am just working off of a theory and trying to find it/this out, is all...

God Bless!

 

[food4thought]

When we all get to heaven, or arrive in heaven, (all of us, including those that have died, "in the past" I guess you could say), (for lack of a better term, though it/that (time) might not even apply)... Anyway, when we all get to heaven, or arrive in heaven, it will be in a perfect, perfected state, when we do...

So even though heaven is messed up now, it will be perfect when we get there...?

The very fact that God's will has to, (be in a process of) happening, at any point, (in heaven) (and earth) means that it is probably happening at some point, like "now", (in heaven) (and earth) and what is happening on earth, is a reflection of that... And vice-versa, though I think what is happening in heaven, happens "first"...

So, why would "we not pray" for God's will to be done on earth, as it is in heaven...?

My thought is that God's will is done implicitly in heaven, but it very obviously is not always done on earth... so we should be praying that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Are you trying to say there is, or would be "no point to prayer or praying"...? (I only say this cause I am a bit confused and am having a hard time following that line of reasoning...?)

Absolutely we should be praying the outline of the Lord's prayer, if not the very words! Prayer is a powerful tool to bring us into communion with God, and to forsake it would be utter foolishness.​

God the Son's will is what we should be trying to be doing and trying to make happen or come to pass... But nothing is outside God the Father's will, for he makes all for, and causes all to go toward, the "ultimate good" no matter what...

I don't see a distinction between the will (or the plan) of the Father and the Son (or the Holy Spirit)… they are One.

Very glad to hear that, though some might, and I wished to point of the flaw and futility in that...

Sure, I understand.

God the Father's will is not thwarted by anything, but we should all be working toward both God the Son and God the Father's good will regardless... Mainly because we don't know and cannot understand all the marvelous complexities of God's will, other than it is, (for us anyway), to do and be and work towards "good" and what is "always good" and to seek out (always what is) good and do it, or work to make it happen, or come to pass, always... That is God's will "for us"... But God "plan(s)" in that "his ultimate will for himself", is a bit more, way more complex, and complicated, and much more difficult to know...

Perhaps I should not be saying "will", but instead say "desire"... God does not desire evil to happen, but it does as part of His plan. What is the "will" of God, given those two things...? ~brain explodes~

God Bless!

You too! Keep searching for truth in His word!

 

[Neogaia777]

So even though heaven is messed up now, it will be perfect when we get there...?

Yes, basically, if we are to apply "time" to it...

My thought is that God's will is done implicitly in heaven, but it very obviously is not always done on earth... so we should be praying that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

I agree with this...

Absolutely we should be praying the outline of the Lord's prayer, if not the very words! Prayer is a powerful tool to bring us into communion with God, and to forsake it would be utter foolishness.

Completely agree... I was just checking... Cause I have had this problem with other posters with this...

Absolutely we should be praying the outline of the Lord's prayer, if not the very words! Prayer is a powerful tool to bring us into communion with God, and to forsake it would be utter foolishness.

Completely agree...

I don't see a distinction between the will (or the plan) of the Father and the Son (or the Holy Spirit)… they are One.

Yes they are one (in will(s) plans, "whatever")... But the Son has not "always understood" his own will, (or plans, or whatever), (in following the Father's will), but does "now", but not "always" (in relation to the Father(s) will)... But, he does now, and they are one now, and the Son is of the realization (now) that they always have been (one), "now", also... But it wasn't always that way, or wasn't always so, for the Son used to have some doubts, and went through periods of doubt, just like us, (in order to relate to us, and us to him) but, no longer, and not "after" the cross...

Sure, I understand.

Good, thanks, I'm glad for that...

Perhaps I should not be saying "will", but instead say "desire"... God does not desire evil to happen, but it does as part of His plan. What is the "will" of God, given those two things...? ~brain explodes~

Mine too (brain explodes)... I agree... God's will, as "in and for himself", is difficult to know...? (All the "details involving his (ultimate) plan(s) for us", collectively, ect)... (are all a part of his "will and plan(s) for himself") (and are difficult to know "specifically", or in great detail, other than they are good, and very good) (for "all", in the end)... That is perhaps where our "faith" has to come in(to) (the picture)...

Anyway, but his will "for us" (each individually), is quite simple (thank God)... (Love and do and be good, and seek out what is good and do it, and be it, that kind of thing)...

And we need, or should, do our best to obey and follow this, though we may find it difficult sometimes... But it is not difficult or complicated at all, it's just that, our "rebel nature" fights (against) it sometimes...

You too! Keep searching for truth in His word!

You as well,

Thanks,

God Bless!

 

[food4thought]

Yes, basically, if we are to apply "time" to it...

I see. Not sure how I feel about that thought... I'll have to think and pray on it. Of course time as we know it does not apply to heaven.

I agree with this...

It is always good for brothers to dwell in agreement... so sad that there is such division here.

Completely agree... I was just checking... Cause I have had this problem with other posters with this...



Completely agree...

Sorry for the double there, I was trying to cut and paste and ended up copying and pasting instead. I can't imagine Christianity without prayer!

Yes they are one (in will(s) plans, "whatever")... But the Son has not "always understood" his own will, (or plans, or whatever), (in following the Father's will), but does "now", but not "always" (in relation to the Father(s) will)... But, he does now, and they are one now, and the Son is of the realization (now) that they always have been (one), "now", also... But it wasn't always that way, or wasn't always so, for the Son used to have some doubts, and went through periods of doubt, just like us, (in order to relate to us, and us to him) but, no longer, and not "after" the cross...

Yes, Jesus did grow in His understanding of Himself and His relationship with the Father while here on earth as a man; but in His pre-existence as the eternal Word of God He was fully equal and in perfect relationship with the Father, I think.

Good, thanks, I'm glad for that...

Agreed. Prayer is so essential

Mine too (brain explodes)... I agree... God's will, as "in and for himself", is difficult to know...? (All the "details involving his (ultimate) plan(s) for us", collectively, ect)... (are all a part of his "will and plan(s) for himself") (and are difficult to know "specifically", or in great detail, other than they are good, and very good) (for "all", in the end)... That is perhaps where our "faith" has to come in(to) (the picture)…

Agree absolutely, though we can know some of His will through Scripture and by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Anyway, but his will "for us" (each individually), is quite simple (thank God)... (Love and do and be good, and seek out what is good and do it, and be it, that kind of thing)…

So true.

And we need, or should, do our best to obey and follow this, though we may find it difficult sometimes... But it is not difficult or complicated at all, it's just that, our "rebel nature" fights (against) it sometimes...

We will always wrestle with sin until we are glorified in the presence of our Lord... what a blessed "day" that will be!!!

You as well,

Thanks,

God Bless!

God bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, Jesus did grow in His understanding of Himself and His relationship with the Father while here on earth as a man; but in His pre-existence as the eternal Word of God He was fully equal and in perfect relationship with the Father, I think.

I agree with you on nearly every, and all other points, thank you for the discussion, but I just wanted address this one, not that I disagree with it though... I'll explain...

Just about his "pre-existence" I believe that he was fully equal and even one and the same in every way with the Father "before" creation, but that, at the point of creation and stepping, (I guess you could say "down" into it), (to be a part of it with us), was the "beginning" of his becoming, in some ways, more limited, or just slightly less than, God the Father...

That he "gave up" some things to "step down into" and be and become a part of creation with us... As our God in the OT... Then eventually to becoming a man for us and with us as Jesus Christ, then lowering himself, even further and submitting even to the point of death and dying on a cross... Then, after dying and being resurrected, became "all that he was before creation began" with the Father (once) again...

(John 17:5)- "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world (or universe, or creation) was (or began).

However "all" of John 17 applies here also... John 17, the entire chapter, talks all about it very well...

That he (Jesus) was YHWH... And that the beginning of him not being as great as the Father (in every single exact same way) (though he was "before creation") (John 17:5), he was not "after creation" and becoming a part with that creation with us, as our God... And he was not "again", until after the crucifixion and being resurrected, the he was (once) (again)...

I think this is also proven by simple logic, with and by examining YHWH, that "this" is "so", also... And, how he can't be the God spoken about in the OP... not in "all and every way" or the; or in being, the "exact same" or in every "equal way" anyway (cause they were "the same") (just not "always "completely equal to each other" in every way"), (mainly omniscience)... Anyway, he (YHWH) could not have been "always, always equal to", or as him, (The Father) (the God talked about in the OP) "in every way", anyway, not always...

Not without being "deceptive" or "pretending or acting", which I do not even consider a possibility, cause that would or might imply "lying" also... Or "pretending not to know" some things while he really did, or "whatever"...

It just not possible for YHWH to be the God being talked about in the OP... not the one, or the member of God at the "head" of the trinune YHWH or Godhead anyway... Not in the OT anyway... It/he had to be God the Son, or Jesus, for there is just no other way, or any other answer other than that... Though the Father was always with him, and was always "one" with him (YHWH, the Son) he (the Father) just couldn't have been the one at the head of God, or the Godhead, in the OT... It just had to be Jesus...

I've tried explaining this a bunch of times... But it's as if people are not understanding it or me, or what I mean by this... It's "not easy to say", so, I know it's "not easy to hear" for some, also, let alone "accept"... but I tell you, it is the truth...

I hope some get this, cause it really is "key" to "knowing our God"...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I agree with you on nearly every, and all other points, thank you for the discussion, but I just wanted address this one, not that I disagree with it though... I'll explain...

Just about his "pre-existence" I believe that he was fully equal and even one and the same in every way with the Father "before" creation, but that, at the point of creation and stepping, (I guess you could say "down" into it), (to be a part of it with us), was the "beginning" of his becoming, in some ways, more limited, or just slightly less than, God the Father...

That he "gave up" some things to "step down into" and be and become a part of creation with us... As our God in the OT... Then eventually to becoming a man for us and with us as Jesus Christ, then lowering himself, even further and submitting even to the point of death and dying on a cross... Then, after dying and being resurrected, became "all that he was before creation began" with the Father (once) again...

(John 17:5)- "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world (or universe, or creation) was (or began).

However "all" of John 17 applies here also... John 17, the entire chapter, talks all about it very well...

That he (Jesus) was YHWH... And that the beginning of him not being as great as the Father (in every single exact same way) (though he was "before creation") (John 17:5), he was not "after creation" and becoming a part with that creation with us, as our God... And he was not "again", until after the crucifixion and being resurrected, the he was (once) (again)...

I think this is also proven by simple logic, with and by examining YHWH, that "this" is "so", also... And, how he can't be the God spoken about in the OP... not in "all and every way" or the; or in being, the "exact same" or in every "equal way" anyway (cause they were "the same") (just not "always "completely equal to each other" in every way"), (mainly omniscience)... Anyway, he (YHWH) could not have been "always, always equal to", or as him, (The Father) (the God talked about in the OP) "in every way", anyway, not always...

Not without being "deceptive" or "pretending or acting", which I do not even consider a possibility, cause that would or might imply "lying" also... Or "pretending not to know" some things while he really did, or "whatever"...

It just not possible for YHWH to be the God being talked about in the OP... not the one, or the member of God at the "head" of the trinune YHWH or Godhead anyway... Not in the OT anyway... It/he had to be God the Son, or Jesus, for there is just no other way, or any other answer other than that... Though the Father was always with him, and was always "one" with him (YHWH, the Son) he (the Father) just couldn't have been the one at the head of God, or the Godhead, in the OT... It just had to be Jesus...

I've tried explaining this a bunch of times... But it's as if people are not understanding it or me, or what I mean by this... It's "not easy to say", so, I know it's "not easy to hear" for some, also, let alone "accept"... but I tell you, it is the truth...

I hope some get this, cause it really is "key" to "knowing our God"...

God Bless!

The Son or YHWH was never at any time acting independently, of his own will or plan, but always the Father's, though he did not always fully understand it at times... Yet he was, and remained, and stayed faithful and true to his Father's will always... And did nothing of his own (will, plan)... (And because it was never his own will or plan(s) but the Father's, it is possible for us to know the Father through him)...

The Son is our God... He is, our "chosen by the Father", "only begotten God" to be our God, and there is no way to "even begin to know" the Father God, except by and through him (the Son/YHWH)... There is no other way...

For without him (the Son/YHWH and Christ) or without going through him, or knowing "him" (the Son/YHWH) "first", there is absolutely "no (other) way" to know anything at all, about our Father God at all... But he (the Father God) is and always will be, forever a "mystery", and will always and forever be a great "unknown" to us without him (the Son/YHWH and Christ)... There is no other way...

That is (part of) his (YHWH/Christ/the Son's) purpose... To reveal the Father God to us, through and by himself... There is no other way...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

The Son or YHWH was never at any time acting independently, of his own will or plan, but always the Father's, though he did not fully understand it at times...

The Son is our God... He is, our "chosen by the Father", "only begotten God" to be our God, and there is no way to "even begin to know" the Father God, except by and through him (the Son/YHWH)... There is no other way...

For without him (the Son/YHWH and Christ) or without going through him, or knowing "him" (the Son/YHWH) "first", there is absolutely "no (other) way" to know anything at all, about our Father God at all... But he (the Father God) is and always will be, forever a "mystery", and will always and forever be a great "unknown" to us without him (the Son/YHWH and Christ)... There is no other way...

That is (part of) his (YHWH/Christ/the Son's) purpose... To reveal the Father God to us, through and by himself... There is no other way...

God Bless!

If we want to know or understand God the Father, through YHWH, then (and while I understand little about this, and do not claim to know very much about this, not accurately anyway)... Anyway, I think it would "begin" with clearly and accurately understanding how YHWH used, or uses bad or evil, to bring about (the) good or the ultimate good, or uses bad for the ultimate cause of good, "without getting it twisted" or it turning into something "dark" or bad or evil...

If, IF, you can do that, then maybe, maybe, you "might" be able to "begin to understand" the mind of the Father God, through YHWH (The Son)...

Again, I cannot (yet) and do not claim to (yet)... Not without "getting it twisted" or it turning into something seemingly dark, or bad, or evil...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

This just came to me... As to what it all "means" or how to interpret it, I leave to you...


Someone: That was my will for you "then" (as YHWH) and this is my will for you "now" (as Jesus)...

But "why" oh Father...? Why was that your will for me then, and this is your will for me now...? What does it all "mean"...? What is the "big picture" we are supposed to "take away" from it/this "all"...? And how does "this all apply"...? And how does this (all) show us (all) "you"...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

.

 

[food4thought]

Sorry it took so long to reply. Busy morning and I've been digesting what you've said.

I honestly shrink back from making YHWH different from the Father. What are the passages that make you think YHWH is less than fully God?

 

[Neogaia777]

Sorry it took so long to reply. Busy morning and I've been digesting what you've said.

I honestly shrink back from making YHWH different from the Father. What are the passages that make you think YHWH is less than fully God?

I'd have to dig up some passages, but, it's very logical to assume, and I think it's very right and very accurate to assume, that, by his (YHWH's) actions/behavior/attitudes/emotions and feelings, all that, that he cannot have been 100% fully omniscient... If he was he would not have acted like that or responded that way... (and I'm not saying that it (YHWH's behavior) was bad or wrong or sinful or whatever, but just that it is very much just "not" the behavior of a completely 100% fully omniscient God) (but is his "heart")...

But also that it/that, (the way he was) was "very necessary" to "show us" the "heart" and soul, of both the Father God, and God the Son, (for it is the same)...

A 100% truly fully omniscient God, would not have been able to show us "any of that" (their heart and soul) unless he laid aside or forsook or discarded some, (if not most), (or a great deal of), his 100% full omniscience... And I'm saying one God did, and one God didn't, or God the Son did, and God the Father did not...

But, that they are "one" also... In that they have the same heart/soul/emotions/feelings/stance on matters, ect... And both existed in the same "container" and/or in the same "being" the entire time... But, one knew more than the other... For a time anyway...

Also, in addition, the "Father's heart" had to shown to us in "time" and required a God or one of them, to become a part of "time" with us to do that... and I'm saying that was the Son, or God the Son, while the Father God continued (stayed) to be outside of it (time), and that the Son did not... but they they were still one with each other and one another, ect...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I'd have to dig up some passages, but, it's very logical to assume, and I think it's very right and very accurate to assume, that, by his (YHWH's) actions/behavior/attitudes/emotions and feelings, all that, that he cannot have been 100% fully omniscient... If he was he would not have acted like that or responded that way... (and I'm not saying that it (YHWH's behavior) was bad or wrong or sinful or whatever, but just that it is very much just "not" the behavior of a completely 100% fully omniscient God) (but is his "heart")...

But also that it/that, (the way he was) was "very necessary" to "show us" the "heart" and soul, of both the Father God, and God the Son, (for it is the same)...

A 100% truly fully omniscient God, would not have been able to show us "any of that" (their heart and soul) unless he laid aside or forsook or discarded some, (if not most), (or a great deal of), his 100% full omniscience... And I'm saying one God did, and one God didn't, or God the Son did, and God the Father did not...

But, that they are "one" also... In that they have the same heart/soul/emotions/feelings/stance on matters, ect... And both existed in the same "container" and/or in the same "being" the entire time... But, one knew more than the other... For a time anyway...

Also, in addition, the "Father's heart" had to shown to us in "time" and required a God or one of them, to become a part of "time" with us to do that... and I'm saying that was the Son, or God the Son, while the Father God continued (stayed) to be outside of it (time), and that the Son did not... but they they were still one with each other and one another, ect...

God Bless!

For God the Son to show us the heart of God the Father (and himself) through and by himself, he had to give up, 100% full complete omniscience, a knowledge or knowing of all or any evil, and he had to become a part of time with us, and be and exist in that state with us... which I think happened right after or at creation... and when he stepped down into creation with us to be our God... It was and would have been necessary to accomplish all they wanted to and need to accomplish with us... For us to relate so as to (be able to) know them at all, ect...

Let me put it this way (just for the sake of explanation though): YHWH is their (God's) "past", so to speak... And we have to accurately understand that, and that "past", to be able to fully understand or fully know them, without "getting it twisted" so to speak, or it turning into some dark, bad, and/or evil...

And I think for those of us who are being "100% completely honest" and very objective, we have a lot of trouble doing that, with accuracy...

I have to explain this using "time" cause I just don't know how, or of any other way to do it...

But, any God that wished to show us their feelings or emotions or their "heart" and soul, that was 100% truly and fully omniscient, once he had, (or attained to), or had, that 100% full omniscience, would be completely unable to (show us that) "after that"... for he just "would not have" those (same) emotions/feelings, or heart anymore... But it/he would be much "different" after that... May not even have much of "any" kinds or "feelings" left anymore, IDK...? (at least, not any negative of bad ones (left) at the very least) I just know he would not be like YHWH (was) anymore...

And again I'm using "time" to explain this, cause I just don't know how, or "any other way" to do it or try or even attempt to explain it at all... For this God that I am talking about (in the OP, and here as the true Father) anyway, this God or he would be outside and beyond time also... But, I don't know any other way to explain, so...

God Bless!

 

[Valetic]

If God made the choice to set everything in motion and it follows a linear path because he is all-knowing and knew the path that would come about for all things in our known existence because he chose the path that the Universe would go in when he set everything in motion, what then is freedom? Are we under the illusion that we have free will because we do not know all things? It would appear we have free will because we have choice, but God knew all the choices that we would make and therefore everything was predestined. I believe true freedom is located within the construct of God's will, but we could be treading close to something that is only for the Father to know. Could this even be fathomable? Could this be something we could actually discover and learn and teach? To obtain the knowledge of true freedom in light of the knowledge that God knew all things and chose for all things to be set in motion and move the way he chose for it to, thus making him ultimately the chooser of the path we walk in life even while it appears we have this "illusion" of free will.

I'm not saying that this is the reality because the Bible only says that he knows all things. But if he actually knows all things then he knew all things when he set all things into motion as far as our known existence is concerned.

Sorry for the rhetoric. This stuff has been boggling my mind since this post was started.

 

[Neogaia777]

OK... Why do we see a certain amount of foreknowledge of foreknowing in the OT, with YHWH (yet not complete or completely, for reasons already stated as to why YHWH cannot completely all-knowing)... Anyway, "why" do we see a "certain amount of foreknowledge or foreknowing with YHWH (and Christ) in both Testaments...? I think, it is not only because he did "just have" a certain (yet limited to compared to the true Father, or the God spoken about in the OP) (yet way more than any of us)...

Anyway, I think it is not only because he just "did have a certain amount of foreknowledge or foreknowing" (or insight) into things (people, places, events, situations, circumstances, ect) at times, but, also that he (YHWH in the OT, and Christ in the NT) also was continually going to the Father and getting "downloads" (so to speak) from him (the Father), as to what was "next" or what was to come "after" following "prior instructions" from the Father before that, or what he was told before in a previous "download" from and/or with the Father, or what was revealed from or by going to him (the Father) in prayer (or communication) (or communing with the Father) before that...

He (YHWH and Christ) never did his own will, but only the Father's always, and this is why we can see much "providence" or a "providential nature" to and with God (them) (in the OT) with "people, places, events, situations, circumstances, and happenings", ect... Cause that has the fingerprints of God the Father "all over it", and is one way we can discover the Father through the Son (YHWH in the OT, Christ in the NT)... With Jesus in the NT we see this as well, and for the same reasons as YHWH in the OT (that is, by his/their continually getting "downloads" (so to speak) from the Father, as to what was next, and sometimes after it and that, ect.)...

But the Father never told YHWH or Jesus "all of everything all at once", or at one time, but did in it all in "steps" and/or "phases" with him (his Son) (YHWH in the OT, and Jesus in the NT)... This also stands to reason that, at times, that "they" (YHWH/Jesus) may not have "completely understood" sometimes, (in that way being like us) but had to have "faith" and keep (the) faith and not stop doing what he/they was/were told... With Jesus, as to his "specific words" that he was speaking or spoke at the time and/or in the moment, (or in the "heat of the moment", with like the Pharisees) I believe those came directly from the Holy Spirit in him, or within him... That is "of and from the Father" (also) and is his (the Father's) spirit, and also the Son's spirit also then also, and is also God himself, also...

But they (YHWH and Christ) were always and continually doing the Father's will as their own will, but it was the Father's will and the Father's plan was involved and is why we see a great deal of providence and providential nature to God, especially in the OT, that has the Father's fingerprints, specifically, all over it... But it was the The Father's will "for the Son", as our God, "for us" as his (the Son's) people... It was the "Father's will for the Son for us"... IOW's the Father's will is not for himself, but is "for the/his Son (YHWH/Jesus) for us"....

And this is important to keep in mind when looking at it or examining it, (their/God's will) (or plans or providential nature or "whatever") (character, personality, ect)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

OK... Why do we see a certain amount of foreknowledge of foreknowing in the OT, with YHWH (yet not complete or completely, for reasons already stated as to why YHWH cannot completely all-knowing)... Anyway, "why" do we see a "certain amount of foreknowledge or foreknowing with YHWH (and Christ) in both Testaments...? I think, it is not only because he did "just have" a certain (yet limited to compared to the true Father, or the God spoken about in the OP) (yet way more than any of us)...

Anyway, I think it is not only because he just "did have a certain amount of foreknowledge or foreknowing" (or insight) into things (people, places, events, situations, circumstances, ect) at times, but, also that he (YHWH in the OT, and Christ in the NT) also was continually going to the Father and getting "downloads" (so to speak) from him (the Father), as to what was "next" or what was to come "after" following "prior instructions" from the Father before that, or what he was told before in a previous "download" from and/or with the Father, or what was revealed from or by going to him (the Father) in prayer (or communication) (or communing with the Father) before that...

He (YHWH and Christ) never did his own will, but only the Father's always, and this is why we can see much "providence" or a "providential nature" to and with God (them) (in the OT) with "people, places, events, situations, circumstances, and happenings", ect... Cause that has the fingerprints of God the Father "all over it", and is one way we can discover the Father through the Son (YHWH in the OT, Christ in the NT)... With Jesus in the NT we see this as well, and for the same reasons as YHWH in the OT (that is, by his/their continually getting "downloads" (so to speak) from the Father, as to what was next, and sometimes after it and that, ect.)...

But the Father never told YHWH or Jesus "all of everything all at once", or at one time, but did in it all in "steps" and/or "phases" with him (his Son) (YHWH in the OT, and Jesus in the NT)... This also stands to reason that, at times, that "they" (YHWH/Jesus) may not have "completely understood" sometimes, (in that way being like us) but had to have "faith" and keep (the) faith and not stop doing what he/they was/were told... With Jesus, as to his "specific words" that he was speaking or spoke at the time and/or in the moment, (or in the "heat of the moment", with like the Pharisees) I believe those came directly from the Holy Spirit in him, or within him... That is "of and from the Father" (also) and is his (the Father's) spirit, and also the Son's spirit also then also, and is also God himself, also...

But they (YHWH and Christ) were always and continually doing the Father's will as their own will, but it was the Father's will and the Father's plan was involved and is why we see a great deal of providence and providential nature to God, especially in the OT, that has the Father's fingerprints, specifically, all over it... But it was the The Father's will "for the Son", as our God, "for us" as his (the Son's) people... It was the "Father's will for the Son for us"... IOW's the Father's will is not for himself, but is "for the/his Son (YHWH/Jesus) for us"....

And this is important to keep in mind when looking at it or examining it, (their/God's will) (or plans or providential nature or "whatever") (character, personality, ect)...

God Bless!

At times it was the Father's will for the Son (YHWH) (and Jesus) to show his wrath or anger, or upsetedness... "Why" is the "big question"...? Especially since those feelings were to be made "past tense" at some point, or were not "specifically", the Father's (himself's) exact (same) feelings in those moments, or at those times, but that of the Son(s)...? Yet, it was the Father's will for the/his Son to show and express them (those feelings) towards us, at those times in the OT and in the past (and in the NT also) (but let's focus on them in the OT here for now)...

I know it had to be done and was probably a part of the Father's will because it was the one and only for them (God) to show their (God's) "heart"... Otherwise, how could they (show us their heart) and how could we know their heart without it/them (those thoughts, emotions, feelings, ect) being expressed and shown to us... Beyond that I don't really know, other than that... But, the Father may have or may have had "other reason's" for it/them as well (those thoughts, emotions, feelings, ect, being expressed and shown to us)...

Why "else" do you think it was, or might have been...? (the Father's will for them (God) to show us those thoughts, emotions, feelings, ect) (back then)...? (and through the Son)...? (and "for us") (what would be the "why and for us" part)...?

God Bless!