There is "one", (a God) that could predict and know everything from beginning to end...?

[Neogaia777]

That's fine brother, I did not know you have explained repeatedly. I will go back and read your replies to others. Accept my humble apologies. I will get back to you soon with a more constructive reply

Thank you sir, for not getting combative with me, I genuinely do appreciate that more than you may be able to know...

It has surprised me, for most on here do and would, I thank you very much, it's a relief...

I hope you are truly genuinely interested in checking out some of my other posts...

Sorry I responded the way I did... I just get frustrated sometimes, cause it always seems like some newcomer (or babe) comes on here, and flat out tries to be combative with me and tries to refute me to no end, when they just "don't know" (it seems to me anyway) and they usually have no interest at all, in checking out the history of the thread, or any other posts or threads either, but just seems to want to argue, and that can get very trying sometimes... Sorry...

Thanks man, truly, sincerely...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I agree but I feel like the intentions were good and the consequences for man's obedience would have been good, and that HE did not fail us but that we failed HIM.

I agree, we failed him... Not the other way around... if we had obeyed "fully" at any of those times in the past, it would be heaven on earth now, already...

God Bless!

 

[Eric Abbott]

Thank you sir, for not getting combative with me, I genuinely do appreciate that more than you may be able to know...

It has surprised me, for most on here do and would, I thank you very much, it's a relief...

I hope you are truly genuinely interested in checking out some of my other posts...

Sorry I responded the way I did... I just get frustrated sometimes, cause it always seems like some newcomer (or babe) comes on here, and flat out tries to be combative with me and tries to refute me to no end, when they just "don't know" (it seems to me anyway) and they usually have no interest at all, in checking out the history of the thread, or any other posts or threads either, but just seems to want to argue, and that can get very trying sometimes... Sorry...

Thanks man, truly, sincerely...

God Bless!

I came here to get away from trolls.. I grow very weary of combatative attitudes. I fully understand. And I am sorry for not doing due deligence first before having a challenging attitude. Was quite rude of me. Won't happen again

 

[Neogaia777]

I came here to get away from trolls.. I grow very weary of combatative attitudes. I fully understand. And I am sorry for not doing due deligence first before having a challenging attitude. Was quite rude of me. Won't happen again

I was rude too...

Sorry...

I won't hold it against you, if you don't hold it against me, K...?

Thanks again,

God Bless!

 

[food4thought]

Excellent post!

Thank you.

I do have one question though, if a God already knows how we are going to choose, way ahead of time, or how we are going to play the game or whatever, how can we make a choice, or play the game differently from what he knows or expects, or knows already...

We don't. God knows exactly what we will do in every circumstance, without fail. This does not change the fact that we were designed with the capacity to choose according to our own tattered will, within our constraints (personality, sinfulness, circumstances). That was what I was trying to get across with the analogy.

My thinking may be too limited to fully understand what you mean by "designing the line to change directions randomly"...? I don't know if I fully understand what you mean by that...? Or how that shows we have choice by or because of that...? In a way he doesn't expect of already know...? Is there a way you could make it clearer maybe..?

Ultimately, all our thinking fails to fully fathom the dichotomy of God's sovereignty and man's freedom to choose. But we do our best to understand as much as we can.

Maybe I should have stated the analogy differently. Perhaps this will clear what I was trying to say up:

Let us say that the line has a purpose in moving through the 3 dimensional space... say it is trying to reach a certain point in that space. Instead of changing directions randomly, let us say that he designed the line to be an AI, so it can choose the best route to reach that point, only under the constraint that it must change directions to some degree at each point. Let us further state that the line is able to select for itself which point it wants to get to (even if the programmer wants it to reach another point), and how best to get there. So even though the programmer knows what the line will do, it does not change the fact that he designed the line with the capacity to select it's own course.

We could add layers of complexity into the analogy (such as opposing forces, other lines, the programmer interacting with the lines, etc.), in order to make it more accurately reflect reality... but I'm trying to keep the analogy as concise as possible in order to reveal a simple reality: God designing us with the capacity to choose. The programmer represents God, who designed the universe and everything (and everyone) in it, and knows the actions each being will take from the foundation of the universe. Yet God designed us, like the line, with the ability to set our own goals, and reach those goals in a way which seems best to us. Of course God can and does intervene in His universe in order to achieve His purposes (Pharaoh, Paul, etc.), but for the most part He achieves His purposes through and around our choices. This is the genius of God, designing beings who can act contrary to His will, yet still accomplishing His will around and through the choices of broken, sinful creatures.

Thanks, and again, excellent post...

God Bless!

Thank you for taking the time to read it. God bless you as well!

 

[Valetic]

In a perfect world, is it even us in there? Is it not just the Christ all the time? Isn't Christ really I AM? So then all I have to do is say I AM? And then HE IS. And then we are amen?

DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE lol

I WAS GOING SOMEWHERE WITH THIS I PROMISE

 

[DennisTate]

There is one, (a God), that, from the very moment everything or things were "set into motion" or were given "life", could "predict" and know "absolutely everything about it all", from that point on, and onward... All the way up to "now", and even all the way up to it's "end or ending"...

The "interactions of all and everything", determining "actions", (or choices) he would fully know from the very beginning to it's, or their, ending...

Consider such a one for a moment...? What would he (or it) be "like"...? How would it/he act and behave...? Would it interact with us or it's creation...? And if so, how...?

Everything would be like a "program" to him, and we would all be running and be a part of that "program"... And, we would have nor make no "real choices" from his perspective...

Try to "think" on that level for a moment...

What would such a one be "like"...? Would it interact with us or it's creation...? And, if so, "how"...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Personally..... I believe that G-d would be far more artistic.... and far more emotional than we might tend to suspect.

If you will scroll about nine tenths of the way down this page you will see the following heading:

The Call Rick Joyner
Pastor Rick Joyner, The Call, chapter 15:

Worship in Spirit

As I listened to Wisdom, it was difficult to comprehend anyone, even this great cloud of witnesses, desiring authority or position in His presence. It seemed that in every moment I had spent here, He had become greater in glory and authority, and I knew that my vision of Him was still limited. Just as the universe was obviously expanding at a great pace and the vastness of it was already incomprehensible, our revelation of Him would likewise be expanding for eternity. “How could mere humans ever represent You?” I questioned.

“When My Father moves His little finger, the whole universe trembles. To shake the nations with words does not impress anyone who dwells here. But when even the least of My brethren on earth shows love, it brings joy to My Father’s heart. When even the most humble church sings to My Father with true love in their hearts, He silences all of heaven to listen to them. He knows that one cannot help but to worship when they are beholding His glory here, but when those who are living in such darkness and difficulty sing with true hearts to Him, it touches Him more than all of the myriads of heaven can.

“Many times, the broken notes from earth caused all of heaven to weep with joy as they beheld My Father being touched. A few holy ones struggling to express their adoration for Him has many times caused Him to weep. Every time I see My brethren touch Him with true worship, it makes the pain and grief I knew on the cross seem like a small price to pay. Nothing brings Me more joy than when you worship My Father. I went to the cross so that you could worship Him through Me. It is in this worship that you, the Father and I are all one.”

Of all that I had yet experienced, the emotion coming from the Lord as He told me this was greater than I had ever experienced. He was not weeping or laughing. His voice was steady, but what He was telling me about worship came from such depths within Him that it was almost more than I could take. I knew that I was hearing the deepest love of the Son of God—to see His Father’s joy. True worship from the embattled, struggling, believers on earth could do this like nothing else could.

Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????

 

[DennisTate]

In a perfect world, is it even us in there? Is it not just the Christ all the time? Isn't Christ really I AM? So then all I have to do is say I AM? And then HE IS. And then we are amen?

DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE lol

I WAS GOING SOMEWHERE WITH THIS I PROMISE

This is a truly interesting line of thought.......
I agree with you that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus speaking through us......... walking around through us.... and doing things through us is absolutely the goal.

I recently saw an interview with a Pastor Henry Gruver.... He reported being led by G-d to interrupt many, many, many attempted suicides during the decades of his ministry.

Obviously.... when we get to the place where G-d can lead us to knock on doors and witness to people who are on the brink of taking their own lives..... We obviously have gotten to the place where we are being guided amazingly closely by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus!

 

[Valetic]

Oh wow my prayers are being answered. Idk what I started but something GOOD is happening. This scripture literally just came to me and it describes what I said in my previous post.

Galatians 2: 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Yes I feel it. I must replace all that I am with Christ. His presence. His person. His prayer. His mind. His fasting. His hunger him IT IS NO LONGER I BUT IT IS THE CHRIST

Hebrews 12: 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us

YEA MORE JESUS LESS ME

 

[Valetic]

and please excuse me if I get a little nutty because my passion for Christ

 

[Blade]

Forgive me man still trying to figure out the MIND of GOD? Gonna listen to the one that searches the deep things of God and tells me everything He hears

 

[Neogaia777]

Thank you.



We don't. God knows exactly what we will do in every circumstance, without fail. This does not change the fact that we were designed with the capacity to choose according to our own tattered will, within our constraints (personality, sinfulness, circumstances). That was what I was trying to get across with the analogy.



Ultimately, all our thinking fails to fully fathom the dichotomy of God's sovereignty and man's freedom to choose. But we do our best to understand as much as we can.

Maybe I should have stated the analogy differently. Perhaps this will clear what I was trying to say up:

Let us say that the line has a purpose in moving through the 3 dimensional space... say it is trying to reach a certain point in that space. Instead of changing directions randomly, let us say that he designed the line to be an AI, so it can choose the best route to reach that point, only under the constraint that it must change directions to some degree at each point. Let us further state that the line is able to select for itself which point it wants to get to (even if the programmer wants it to reach another point), and how best to get there. So even though the programmer knows what the line will do, it does not change the fact that he designed the line with the capacity to select it's own course.

We could add layers of complexity into the analogy (such as opposing forces, other lines, the programmer interacting with the lines, etc.), in order to make it more accurately reflect reality... but I'm trying to keep the analogy as concise as possible in order to reveal a simple reality: God designing us with the capacity to choose. The programmer represents God, who designed the universe and everything (and everyone) in it, and knows the actions each being will take from the foundation of the universe. Yet God designed us, like the line, with the ability to set our own goals, and reach those goals in a way which seems best to us. Of course God can and does intervene in His universe in order to achieve His purposes (Pharaoh, Paul, etc.), but for the most part He achieves His purposes through and around our choices. This is the genius of God, designing beings who can act contrary to His will, yet still accomplishing His will around and through the choices of broken, sinful creatures.



Thank you for taking the time to read it. God bless you as well!

I still don't know if I am fully "getting it" but I do appreciate your trying though...

I'm still not understanding how we can have choice if there is one who already knows all the choices we are going to make way ahead of time...? And knows where all is going to be, what they're going to be doing, ect, at all times and at every (point in) time...?

Thanks for trying though, I appreciate it...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I agree, we failed him... Not the other way around... if we had obeyed "fully" at any of those times in the past, it would be heaven on earth now, already...

God Bless!

This just "came to me"... Don't know what, if any, "point" is trying to made by it or whatever though... But, It came when I was thinking about man's disobedience...



What are we to do...? It is in man's heart to continually disobey, and rebel, and not have any faith in me, or us at all...

We will compound and create a mystery that will confound them... So that, or in order that, those who are initially compelled to, and do, and will, rebel the "most", (at first), will eventually be, and will feel, and will be compelled and driven to, and actually will turn out to be the ones who will eventually actually obey, eventually...and will not rebel anymore, or any longer, and will have more faith than all (the rest), in the end... And they will turn out to be the chosen ones, and who we will chose for ourselves (to lead the others) in the end...

God Bless!

 

[Valetic]

Forgive me man still trying to figure out the MIND of GOD? Gonna listen to the one that searches the deep things of God and tells me everything He hears

I can't say it's a completely foolish thing to do when you want to know who He is and experience Him on a very intimate and transparent level. He says seek first the... WOW a revelation! I'm born again I am a child of God. All things have been added to me. AMEN.

 

[food4thought]

I still don't know if I am fully "getting it" but I do appreciate your trying though...

I'm still not understanding how we can have choice if there is one who already knows all the choices we are going to make way ahead of time...? And knows where all is going to be, what they're going to be doing, ect, at all times and at every (point in) time...?

Thanks for trying though, I appreciate it...

God Bless!

You said it yourself... we make the choices, but God already knows, and further He selected this reality from an infinite number of possible realities, thus He preordained the choices we will make! Just trying to wrap my mind around that is causing me to get dizzy lol. Still, God designed us to make choices based upon our will, even though that will is constrained by the reality of our limitations, and God sets the program so to speak. Just remember that God designed us this way, and you will be able to resist the hardline Calvinist.

God bless you as you grow in Him!
Michael

 

[food4thought]

Just a little thought that came to me... if God's will is always done, why do we pray for it to be done on "earth as it is in heaven"? Sadly, to our shame and unfathomable detriment, we are capable of thwarting the will of God by doing things He doesn't want us to do. Yet praise be to God that He has redeemed us by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, and we can be forgiven all our colossal rebellious heinous twisted infernal sins against Him! Moreover, we inherit heaven's glorious reality simply by placing our faith in Him, and we gain the capacity to know and do His will through the indwelling Holy Spirit! PRAISE HIM ALL HIS SAINTS!!! Sing for joy over what He has given us!!!

Amen!

 

[Neogaia777]

You said it yourself... we make the choices, but God already knows, and further He selected this reality from an infinite number of possible realities, thus He preordained the choices we will make! Just trying to wrap my mind around that is causing me to get dizzy lol. Still, God designed us to make choices based upon our will, even though that will is constrained by the reality of our limitations, and God sets the program so to speak. Just remember that God designed us this way, and you will be able to resist the hardline Calvinist.

God bless you as you grow in Him!
Michael

I don't really "want" to be right about this, but think I might be, at least, as far as God the Father is concerned...

I don't want to be right about this, cause I'm afraid it might cause people to "give up" and not try (to be better, to improve, to not sin, all of that)... But I am not one of those though...

I'm reminded of an episode of Star Trek TNG, where a time traveler visits the crew from the past with foreknowledge of and event that they are facing at that time, and Picard talks to the person, the time traveler and tries to get him to help him, and he won't and says he can't cause it would influence his decision(s)... And Picard rightly frustrated, says to him, "If you already know what I/we will choose, how can I make a choice...?" "You won't help me, fine... And says to him, "While you might have foreknowledge of this, I do not... and since you won't help me, I'm going to go with the decision I would have gone with to begin with, regardless of whether you were even here or not... And since I've never been one to play it safe, I chose to try (and save these people, even with the risks involved to the Enterprise), He also says (frustrated) "as far as I'm concerned, my future has not been written yet, so I choose to do what I would have done anyway", regardless of "this" (the time travelers foreknowledge) or his even being there regardless...

And I really hope that's exactly what people would conclude and what they would do (anyway) regardless of "this"...

That's what I'm going to do (about it) anyway...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Just a little thought that came to me... if God's will is always done, why do we pray for it to be done on "earth as it is in heaven"? Sadly, to our shame and unfathomable detriment, we are capable of thwarting the will of God by doing things He doesn't want us to do. Yet praise be to God that He has redeemed us by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, and we can be forgiven all our colossal rebellious heinous twisted infernal sins against Him! Moreover, we inherit heaven's glorious reality simply by placing our faith in Him, and we gain the capacity to know and do His will through the indwelling Holy Spirit! PRAISE HIM ALL HIS SAINTS!!! Sing for joy over what He has given us!!!

Amen!

Cause heaven is messed up to...(right now) When earth is perfected, heaven will be, and vice versa...

I don't think it matters what we do, in that, nothing cannot be outside God's will, if we tried to make a choice that went against his will (just for the sake of it maybe) it really would not (wind up to be) outside his will at all, for he works all out even wrong or sin or disobedience for the goodwill of, if not you, then someone else, or several someone else's, in the end...

And why would you want to do bad to yourself, by doing or choosing badly... Just to try and prove that your "free" when your really "not free", (not yet anyway)... That would be very foolish don't you think...? So, it is much better to obey than to disobey... For your only hurting and harming yourself by such actions and are proving or doing nothing by disobedience, other than just hurting yourself...

Even if we did try to make a choice that would be outside his will, (just for the sake of it maybe) it reallly would not be, (outside his will) for he always, "always" knew what you would do or choose in the first place... It would have been all "totally and fully predictable and all fully knowable, way ahead of time", for him... (God the Father anyway)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

These posts #26 here: "Contradictions" with the sovereignty of God?

And #28 after it might be useful here maybe...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Cause heaven is messed up to...(right now) When earth is perfected, heaven will be, and vice versa...

I don't think it matters what we do, in that, nothing cannot be outside God's will, if we tried to make a choice that went against his will (just for the sake of it maybe) it really would not (wind up to be) outside his will at all, for he works all out even wrong or sin or disobedience for the goodwill of, if not you, then someone else, or several someone else's, in the end...

And why would you want to do bad to yourself, by doing or choosing badly... Just to try and prove that your "free" when your really "not free", (not yet anyway)... That would be very foolish don't you think...? So, it is much better to obey than to disobey... For your only hurting and harming yourself by such actions and are proving or doing nothing by disobedience, other than just hurting yourself...

Even if we did try to make a choice that would be outside his will, (just for the sake of it maybe) it reallly would not be, (outside his will) for he always, "always" knew what you would do or choose in the first place... It would have been all "totally and fully predictable and all fully knowable, way ahead of time", for him... (God the Father anyway)...

God Bless!

So, you see no one can really resist or thwart the express, ultimate "good will" of God, not even by disobedience... Your only harming and hurting yourself by such actions and are proving nothing...

So, why do it, why not work or try to do and be good and obey instead...?

God Bless!