There is NO risk to me if I am wrong about "certain" doctrinal positions.

[ChetSinger]

Nothing in the subject title or the OP is "a quote from Ellen White".

If you are looking to start and all-Ellen-White-all-the-time subject thread feel free - but that is not this thread.

And you have not addressed a single detail in the OP in that post.

Regarding Ellen White, there was already a discussion going on about SDA sabbath observation. Her writings are part of the origin of the practice.

Regarding the OP, I think that if your conscience tells you to observe the Jewish sabbath that's what you should do:

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. - Romans 14:5​

Likewise with dietary rules:

I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. - Romas 14:14​

I agree with your OP, and with Paul, that there's no harm in observing such things if that's where our hearts lead us.

But a problem arises when we try and force our consciences onto other believers. Who are we to judge the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Regarding Ellen White, there was already a discussion going on about SDA sabbath observation. Her writings are part of the origin of the practice.

Regarding the OP, I think that if your conscience tells you to observe the Jewish sabbath that's what you should do:

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. - Romans 14:5
​

This scripture was addressed in the OP. There is no risk to Sabbath keepers by keeping holy the Sabbath day like the commandment tells us to. Exodus 20:8-11 According to my Bible, the Sabbath is the holy day of the Lord Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13 and nowhere does it say in scripture that God wants only Jews to keep the Sabbath holy. Instead, Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man mark 2:27, man was created on the sixth day before the first Jew Genesis 1:26 and the Sabbath will be the day of worship for all flesh (God's saints), not just Jews after the cross for eternity Isaiah 66:23. The scripture you posted is not about the weekly Sabbath day.

​

Likewise with dietary rules:

I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. - Romas 14:14​

I agree with your OP, and with Paul, that there's no harm in observing such things if that's where our hearts lead us.

The dietary laws have no risk for those who only eat foods that God deemed clean. Where we see there is a risk for those who choose to eat foods that God deems an abomination. Isaiah 66:17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together,” says the LORD.

Romans 14 you might want to read the whole chapter for context. It's about judging not God deeming the foods He said is an abomination are now clean.

God bless

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding the OP, I think that if your conscience tells you to observe the Jewish sabbath that's what you should do:

The OP does point that out with its Rom 14 reference showing that the affirmed-Sabbath POV has no "risk" in that regard even if it is wrong. That was exactly the point the OP makes about Rom 14.

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. - Romans 14:5​

Likewise with dietary rules:

I did not specifically have that in the list that is in the OP, but you are right that is another example of a position where the POV that affirms the Bible statement on what is "food to eat" is at no risk at all even if it is wrong. The only side of that debate with risk is the one that says the Bible statement can be ignored. There is a possibility of some level of "risk" in that position if it is wrong.

I agree with your OP, and with Paul, that there's no harm in observing such things if that's where our hearts lead us.

Thanks. My general point in the OP is that there are a string of positions like this - where there is no risk to affirming what the Bible says by taking a certain POV - and even if one is wrong, still no risk. But there is at least the logical possibility of risk in going the opposite way.

But a problem arises when we try and force your consciences onto other believers.

I don't have an example in the OP that looks like this.

1. One chooses to force the conscience of others ... but has no risk even if they are wrong.. while another takes the position of not forcing the conscience of others - and has some level of risk.​

I think you will agree that this is not something I claim in the OP.

I think I can say with some level of confidence that on CF -- I am one of the top examples of posting something like this "you have free will you can ignore whatever you wish"

But what I never add is "no matter what the topic or doctrine - ignoring whatever you wish, cannot possibly incur some level of risk"

 

[YeshuaFan]

Which can be also translated by some as "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet they will be as white as snow so you can continue in known unrepentant sin" Of course not! According to the scriptures, sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11) and the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of Gods' dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace according to Hebrews 10:26-31; John 3:36; 1 John 2:3-4.

Which also can be also translated by others as; "For as many as received him gave He them the right to be called the children of God and continue in known unrepentant sin"? Of course none of those statements are true. According to the scriptures no one "receives Christ" by not believing and following what God's Word says. Just as the scriptures teach that the difference between the "children of God" and the "children of the devil" is that the children of God do not practice known unrepentant sin according to 1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. God's salvation is from sin not a license to continue to practice sin which is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments and not believing Gods' Word (1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11; Romans 14:23).

Take Care.

there are no sabbath nor dietary laws bound on the Christian in the new Covenant now!

 

[BobRyan]

there are no sabbath nor dietary laws bound on the Christian in the new Covenant now!

That is one of the positions in the OP... and it has an opposite also listed in the OP.

The point made in the OP is that only one of those two - "has no risk" even if it is wrong.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Where did I ever post or say to you anywhere in this thread that we need to depend on the law as the basis of Christian life? If I have never said that we need to depend on the law as the basis of Christian life why are you pretending that is what I have said? Now if we are both in agreement that we do not depend on the law for our basis of Christian life then what argument have you made? You have no argument because we are both in agreement that no one can be made righteous with God through keeping the law because all the law does is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) and leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25 because all of us have sinned and fall short of God's glory (Romans 3:9-20). Now let's make it clear so you know exactly what I believe from the scriptures as you have certainly made it clear you do not know what we believe. So there is no misunderstanding between us. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins.

According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. As posted earlier to you, if our faith has no fruit then all we have is the dead faith of devils *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4.

Now you know what I believe as shown from the scriptures above, what is it in this post and the scriptures shared with you here that you are in disagreement with and why (scripture please)?

Take Care

We are on the same page there. The way you have expressed it puts the Law in the right place for the Christian believer.

Under the covenant of works we are all under condemnation because we have not being able to keep it. Therefore, there needed to be a new covenant - made between God and Christ. Christ kept the covenant of works perfectly, and therefore became our perfect substitute. He paid our penalty for breaking the covenant of works by suffering on the cross. But He went further, He gave us eternal life by dying and being resurrected. This is why we don't have faith in ourselves. The burden of having to keep the covenant of works is lifted from us, and under the new covenant, Christ is the focus of our faith.

The Law is good and reflects the holiness of God. It shows us the character of God, and gives us direction on how we can depend on the Holy Spirit to work in us to conform us to the image of Christ. The Law shows us how to be holy.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Here's another one quote, directly from Ellen White, brought to my attention last year on this forum:

Satan is the sharpest critic that the world has ever known, and he works to hinder and pervert truth. He has induced men to strive to change the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Under his dictation the first day of the week has been adopted by the Christian world as the Sabbath. He has used his masterly mind to influence other men to adopt the same views that he himself entertains. But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. The Review and Herald​

She wrote that in a vision she saw Christians prior to 1844 had been given a pass. She was shown this while being "taken off in the Spirit to the City of the living God":

I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the holy place was finished and He had passed within the second veil; therefore Christians who fell asleep before the door was opened into the most holy, when the midnight cry was finished, at the seventh month, 1844, and who had not kept the true Sabbath, now rest in hope; for they had not the light and the test on the Sabbath which we now have since that door was opened. The Present Truth​

It's no wonder SDA members are so evangelistic about observing the Jewish sabbath. Their prophet wrote that salvation depends on it.

True. As soon as one makes a work of the Law such as observance of the Saturday sabbath a requirement for salvation, they turn away from Christ and are no longer saved by grace.

 

[BobRyan]

Under the covenant of works we are all under condemnation because we have not being able to keep it.

True and it does not matter if you are talking about "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 or even "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 - neither OT or NT was making the case for ejecting the gospel and simply working your way to heaven.

Therefore, there needed to be a new covenant - and it is given in Jer 31:31-34... and quoted again verbatim and unchanged in Heb 8:6-12.

In fact "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

Which is how we can see Moses and Elijah with Christ in glory - in Matt 17.. even before the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

True. As soon as one makes a work of the Law such as observance of the Saturday sabbath a requirement for salvation,

false.

Neither "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7, nor "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 nor Ex 20:8-11 "remember the Sabbath" day -- are condemned as "the work of the law" in opposition to grace and the gospel.

Rather under the NEW Covenant "the Law is written on heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:61-2

on the other hand if one chooses to reject the gospel then any one of those three or all-three can be used as "works of the law" apart from grace.

 

[BobRyan]

True. As soon as one makes a work of the Law such as observance of the Saturday sabbath a requirement for salvation,

false.

Neither "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7, nor "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 nor Ex 20:8-11 "remember the Sabbath" day -- are condemned as "the work of the law" in opposition to grace and the gospel.

Rather under the NEW Covenant "the Law is written on heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:61-2

on the other hand if one chooses to reject the gospel then any one of those three or all-three can be used as "works of the law" apart from grace.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is it reading different from "if you do not take God's name in vain you will be whiter than snow"?

Is it reading like "if you take God's name in vain then you show you really understand grace and the gospel"?




Sounds like "For those who received Him [Christ] and do not take God's name in vain are doing well"

James 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Lev 19:18) you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the Law as violators.

Are you trying to avoid the points listed in the OP with this line of posting?

The most important commandment of Jesus is to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength". When have you ever been able to do that? I put it to you that you, along with everyone else, has never been able to obey that commandment, even for a minute. Therefore, every moment of the day, you are a Lawbreaker. Therefore you cannot teach that others are required to keep the Law when you constantly are breaking it yourself.

Isn't that what Paul is saying in Romans? That the legalists are teaching obedience to the Law, yet they are not keeping it themselves?

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?" (Romans 2:1-3).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The most important commandment of Jesus is to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength". When have you ever been able to do that? I put it to you that you, along with everyone else, has never been able to obey that commandment, even for a minute. Therefore, every moment of the day, you are a Lawbreaker. Therefore you cannot teach that others are required to keep the Law when you constantly are breaking it yourself.

Isn't that what Paul is saying in Romans? That the legalists are teaching obedience to the Law, yet they are not keeping it themselves?

Do you show love to God by being obedient to His law or disobedient? God answers that question right in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20:6 and Jesus repeated John 14:15, John 15:10 and John says the same thing 1 John 5:3

 

[BobRyan]

The most important commandment of Jesus is to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength".

In Matt 22 Jesus said all of scripture "the Law and the prophets" is founded on the firm foundation of that Deut 6:5 command in the Law of Moses and also on Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself".

These are not the parts of the Law of Moses that declare the command to "not take God's name in vain" to be legalism or "works".

Rom 8:4-12 says only the born again can comply with God's Word in that regard.

 

[BobRyan]

Isn't that what Paul is saying in Romans? That the legalists are teaching obedience to the Law, yet they are not keeping it themselves?

Yes but that would be a problem with any of it - including Deut 6:5 or Lev 19:18.. any attempt to keep God's Word without first accepting the Gospel - would fail

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Do you show love to God by being obedient to His law or disobedient? God answers that question right in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20:6 and Jesus repeated John 14:15, John 15:10 and John says the same thing 1 John 5:3

The Scripture says that disobeying just one part of the Law means breaking the whole Law. Therefore, the requirement of the Law is that you love the Lord with all your heart, mind and strength. The truth is that no one has been able to do that even for a moment. Therefore you cannot teach obedience to the Law when you are constantly breaking it yourself. Romans 2:1-3 shows that.

This is where SDAs condemn themselves. They teach obedience to the Law as a requirement for Christian life, while not being able to keep it themselves.

 

[BobRyan]

The Scripture says that disobeying just one part of the Law means breaking the whole Law. Therefore, the requirement of the Law is that you love the Lord with all your heart, mind and strength.

True - but that is not a Bible argument in favor of deleting something from scripture.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In Matt 22 Jesus said all of scripture "the Law and the prophets" is founded on the firm foundation of that Deut 6:5 command in the Law of Moses and also on Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself".

These are not the parts of the Law of Moses that declare the command to "not take God's name in vain" to be legalism or "works".

Rom 8:4-12 says only the born again can comply with God's Word in that regard.

The challenge is: When have you followed the command "love your neighbor as you love yourself" perfectly all the time? The moment you fall short of it, you disqualify yourself from being able to teach it to others.

 

[BobRyan]

They teach obedience to the Law as a requirement for Christian life, while not being able to keep it themselves.

Romans 8 says there is only one group "unable" to comply with the Word of God.

Rom 8:4-12
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Scripture says that disobeying just one part of the Law means breaking the whole Law. Therefore, the requirement of the Law is that you love the Lord with all your heart, mind and strength. The truth is that no one has been able to do that even for a moment. Therefore you cannot teach obedience to the Law when you are constantly breaking it yourself. Romans 2:1-3 shows that.

This is where SDAs condemn themselves. They teach obedience to the Law as a requirement for Christian life, while not being able to keep it themselves.

How do you know what 20 million people do unless your God? I have never met you so not sure how you know what I do as well. Scripture teaches that only Jesus is our righteous judge, so I would probably leave that job for Him.

With God all things are possible, including gaining victory over sin, otherwise God would not ask. The problem is there is a popular teaching that our sin is more powerful than our God. It's not a belief I buy into based on the promises of Jesus who gives us the Holy Spirit so we can obey. John 14:15-18

 

[BobRyan]

The challenge is: When have you followed the command "love your neighbor as you love yourself" perfectly all the time? The moment you fall short of it, you disqualify yourself from being able to teach it to others.

Your argument is of the form "why are you not taking God's name in vain as a good Christian? Failure to not oppose God's commands makes you disqualified to affirm something like not taking God's name in vain". It makes no sense.