• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

There is NO risk to me if I am wrong about "certain" doctrinal positions.

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Yes but that would be a problem with any of it - including Deut 6:5 or Lev 19:18.. any attempt to keep God's Word without first accepting the Gospel - would fail
The issue is that we can't keep the Law at any time. This is why we are going to die, because the Scripture says that the soul that sins will die. So while we have sin present in our mortal bodies, we are under the sentence of death. But putting our faith in the resurrection of Jesus as a promise that we will rise from the dead in like manner, we have the assurance that we will be resurrected and leave the presence of sin behind.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Romans 8 says there is only one group "unable" to comply with the Word of God.

Rom 8:4-12
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
If that is so, why does the SDA church teach that obedience to the Law is essential for salvation? That is what Ellen White taught, and the SDA church is based on her teaching.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,366
11,910
Georgia
✟1,094,287.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The issue is that we can't keep the Law at any time.

Paul is very clear on who "does not" and in fact "is not even able to do so"

Rom 8:4-12
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

By contrast we have
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping...."
Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP..."
1 John 5:4 "This is the LOVE of God what we KEEP..."
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,366
11,910
Georgia
✟1,094,287.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
If that is so, why does the SDA church teach that obedience to the Law is essential for salvation? That is what Ellen White taught, and the SDA church is based on her teaching.

All the doctrines of the SDA church stand or fall "sola scriptura" without reference to anything Ellen White ever said. That is how we do all of our evangelism and it is what we teach each week in church regarding our stated fundamental beliefs - public and online.

If our only path to our doctrinal beliefs was some statement by Ellen White -- we would not get even one person to convert and would not be the fastest growing Christian denomination in the world (a statistic in Christianity Today regarding our growth, in its Jan 2015 article on SDAs and Ben Carson).

I have another thread for discussing the law and the Sabbath if that is your interest.

"seventh day is the Sabbath" Ex 20:10 vs "remember the Sabbath" Ex 20:8

It will be moved to the right forum shortly.

But this thread is more general including OSAS and other topics not on the Law.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
True - but that is not a Bible argument in favor of deleting something from scripture.
But the bottom line is that you can't teach me anything about obeying the Law because you are constantly breaking it yourself. I will accept your teaching when you can demonstrate to me that you have kept the Law perfectly from your youth up.

I know only one person who has ever been able to keep the Law perfectly, and He is the One I listen to.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,418
5,515
USA
✟706,311.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
If that is so, why does the SDA church teach that obedience to the Law is essential for salvation? That is what Ellen White taught, and the SDA church is based on her teaching.

Jesus taught Matthew 4: 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Sin is breaking the law of God 1 John 3:4. We have a very merciful Savior who is just and will forgive us of our sins when we sincerely repent. True repentance means turning from sin and walking in the Spirit which is given to help us obey. John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32

It's not just the Sabbath commandment, but that is part of God's law and breaking one is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12
 
  • Like
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
How do you know what 20 million people do unless your God? I have never met you so not sure how you know what I do as well. Scripture teaches that only Jesus is our righteous judge, so I would probably leave that job for Him.

With God all things are possible, including gaining victory over sin, otherwise God would not ask. The problem is there is a popular teaching that our sin is more powerful than our God. It's not a belief I buy into based on the promises of Jesus who gives us the Holy Spirit so we can obey. John 14:15-18
The point of Romans 2:1-3 is that the person who cannot perfectly obey the law is a hypocrite if he or she teaches that others are required to obey it.

So, seeing that you have the indwelling Holy Spirit, are you now able to obey the whole Law without fault?
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Paul is very clear on who "does not" and in fact "is not even able to do so"

Rom 8:4-12
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

By contrast we have
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping...."
Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP..."
1 John 5:4 "This is the LOVE of God what we KEEP..."
You can quote Scripture about keeping the commands of God until the cows come home, but the truth is that none of us can keep them.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,366
11,910
Georgia
✟1,094,287.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
But the bottom line is that you can't teach me anything about obeying the Law because you are constantly breaking it yourself.

That is a general argument against the saints complying with the Word of God - and would apply to
"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5.

The bottom line is the way you frame that argument -- it deletes all of scripture. The entire idea of the saints "keeping the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 is denied in the argument you are making.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,366
11,910
Georgia
✟1,094,287.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You can quote Scripture about keeping the commands of God until the cows come home, but the truth is that none of us can keep them.

Your argument is of the form

"No matter what scripture says to the contrary - I choose my views"... and of course you have free will and can choose as you wish.

That is a great example for the OP where one of these two positions "has risk" if it is in error and the other does not -- even if it is wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Jesus taught Matthew 4: 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Sin is breaking the law of God 1 John 3:4. We have a very merciful Savior who is just and will forgive us of our sins when we sincerely repent. True repentance means turning from sin and walking in the Spirit which is given to help us obey. John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32

It's not just the Sabbath commandment, but that is part of God's law and breaking one is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12
The reality is that we are constantly breaking the Law every moment of the day, so if a person is depending on obedience to the Law to justify themselves before God at the Judgment, what will they do when the Judge declares them guilty?
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,418
5,515
USA
✟706,311.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The point of Romans 2:1-3 is that the person who cannot perfectly obey the law is a hypocrite if he or she teaches that others are required to obey it.

So, seeing that you have the indwelling Holy Spirit, are you now able to obey the whole Law without fault?
How do you know what I practice?

We are all sinners in need of a Savior, but we should not practice unrepented sin. We should not be comfortable living in perpetual sin. If you stumble and fall, we have a gracious Savior who will forgive us and help us to overcome sin. You can keep falling, but the most important part is getting back up and gain victory over sin with the help of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We have many examples of people overcoming their sin in the Bible. The biggest lesson are those who got back up and repented. Jesus would have forgiven Judas, but he did not repent and lived with sin and the devil entered him and never left.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,418
5,515
USA
✟706,311.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The reality is that we are constantly breaking the Law every moment of the day, so if a person is depending on obedience to the Law to justify themselves before God at the Judgment, what will they do when the Judge declares them guilty?
I read the bible many moments of the day and pray, is that sin according to you?

According to scripture the commandments of God are not burdensome

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

The devil wants you to think we can't overcome sin, Jesus tells us we can with the help of the Holy Spirit. John 14:15-18
 
  • Agree
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,366
11,910
Georgia
✟1,094,287.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The reality is that we are constantly breaking the Law every moment of the day, so if a person is depending on obedience to the Law to justify themselves before God at the Judgment, what will they do when the Judge declares them guilty?

That is a false choice.

100% rebellion -- vs - "depending on self"

Rom 2:13 does not support it.
Rom 3:31 flat out denies it
1 Cor 7:19 denies it
Rev 14:12 denies it
Matt 7 denies it
1 Cor 6 denies it....
James 2:8-12 denies it...
All of Romans 6 denies it...

I really have to go with scripture on this one...

But I DO agree that your proposal fits perfectly into
1. One of these two ideas has risk if it is wrong... and the other has no risk at all if it is wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
How do you know what I practice?

We are all sinners of need of a Savior, but we should not practice unrepented sin. We should not be comfortable living in perpetual sin. If you stumble and fall, we have a gracious Savior who will forgive us and help us to overcome sin. You can keep falling, but the most important part is getting back up and gain victory over sin with the help of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We have many examples of people overcoming their sin in the Bible. The biggest lesson are those who got back up and repented. Jesus would have forgiven Judas, but he did not repent and lived with sin and the devil entered him and never left.
The point I'm making is that we can't get total victory over the presence of sin in our mortal bodies. The concept of sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting, and so on, is living by the Law and not walking in the Spirit through faith in the finished work of Christ.

It is not a matter of defeating sin with the help of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That is still in the region of self-righteousness. It is ceasing from self effort and putting our complete faith in Christ and allowing the Holy Spirit to do the work of sanctification in us.

In other words, we let go trying to be holy, because we can't. Only Jesus working in us can achieve it, and while we are trying to obey the Law, we are rejecting Christ. Therefore it is Christ Himself through the indwelling Holy Spirit who works to conform us to His image. It is not us trying to do it with His help. He doesn't want us to do it. He wants to do it himself, as long as we keep our hands off ourselves, and to leave it all to Him.

I will bet your bottom dollar that I would never become a member of an SDA church with views that I have just expressed.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,366
11,910
Georgia
✟1,094,287.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The point I'm making is that we can't get total victory over the presence of sin in our mortal bodies.

Even so that fact does not turn us loose on a campaign against complying with "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 or "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,366
11,910
Georgia
✟1,094,287.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It is not a matter of defeating sin with the help of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That is still in the region of self-righteousness. It is ceasing from self effort and putting our complete faith in Christ and allowing the Holy Spirit to do the work of sanctification in us.

In other words, we let go trying to be holy, because we can't. Only Jesus working in us can achieve it, and while we are trying to obey the Law, we are rejecting Christ. Therefore it is Christ Himself through the indwelling Holy Spirit who works to conform us to His image. It is not us trying to do it with His help. He doesn't want us to do it. .

The lack of any Bible text saying that is how you get to "I don't care about all those bible texts you quote" statements.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,418
5,515
USA
✟706,311.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The point I'm making is that we can't get total victory over the presence of sin in our mortal bodies. The concept of sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting, and so on, is living by the Law and not walking in the Spirit through faith in the finished work of Christ.

It is not a matter of defeating sin with the help of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That is still in the region of self-righteousness. It is ceasing from self effort and putting our complete faith in Christ and allowing the Holy Spirit to do the work of sanctification in us.

You do not walk in the Spirit, by disobeying the law of God. What I am referring to is the sanctification process. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin for those who has not grieved away the Holy Spirit by hardening their hearts. When you are born again and walking in the Spirit, if you slip and fall you repent and true repentance means turning from sin.

We are not rejected by Christ by obeying the law of God, this is not a teaching from God who tells us that that is how we show Him love, by having enough faith to obey. John 14:15, John 15:10, Revelation 14:12
It's one thing to say you love God, but its another to show Him. We do not obey to be saved, we obey because we love. Sin hurts God, so why would we want to hurt our blessed Savior and Creator?

Only Jesus working in us can achieve it, and while we are trying to obey the Law, we are rejecting Christ. Therefore it is Christ Himself through the indwelling Holy Spirit who works to conform us to His image. It is not us trying to do it with His help. He doesn't want us to do it. He wants to do it himself, as long as we keep our hands off ourselves, and to leave it all to Him.

This is a complete contradiction to these scriptures. God does not take away our free will, and we would not be in the position we are in with sin everywhere, because sin is not the will of God.

IF you love Me, keep MY commandment John 14:15

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. James 1:22

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Romans 2:13

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Even so that fact does not turn us loose on a campaign against complying with "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 or "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
That would be going from one extreme to another. Paul clearly asks: "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! How can we who are dead to sin continue in it?"

The point that I have been making all along is that teaching strict obedience to the Law is hypocritical because even the best of those who teach it are constantly breaking the Law themselves.

Also, a church that teaches strict obedience to a set of rules based on the Ten Commandments is not God's church at all, but a man-made religious sect that purports to follow God's Word, but actually teaches grace plus works, which is not the Gospel of Christ.

The notion that people who are depending on Christ alone for salvation and sanctification are allowing themselves to continue in a wilful sinful lifestyle under the banner of free grace, is nonsense. Even John Calvin himself calls such people "fanatics".

Even Paul, in Romans 7, struggles with his inability to do the things that are in his heart toward God, and his tendency to do the things he would rather not do. He says that he values the Law of God in his heart, but is unable to keep it. He cries out, "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He then goes to the only Person he knows who can: "I thank God through Jesus Christ." He goes on to say, "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Jesus Christ has set me free from the Law of Sin and Death."

The Ten Commandments make up the Law of sin and death, because they show our sinfulness and that because we cannot keep them, how that we have fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore, the Ten Commandments are our tutor to lead us to Christ. Once we are in Christ, the Ten Commandments have fulfilled their purpose and are set aside as a set of external rules. The new Law of the spirit of life in Christ is written on our hearts and as we keep our eyes and hearts on Christ, the Holy Spirit works in us to conform us to the image of Christ.

A church that forces its members to comply with an external set of rules based on the Ten Commandments as a requirement for membership is not God's church because it is rooted in the Old Covenant with its requirement to comply with the works of the Mosaic Law. It is not based on the grace of God through faith in Christ. True, it may name Christ and talk about grace and faith, but unless the person agrees to follow the church's set of rules, they would never be given the right hand of fellowship.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
You do not walk in the Spirit, by disobeying the law of God. What I am referring to is the sanctification process. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin for those who has not grieved away the Holy Spirit by hardening their hearts. When you are born again and walking in the Spirit, if you slip and fall you repent and true repentance means turning from sin.

We are not rejected by Christ by obeying the law of God, this is not a teaching from God who tells us that that is how we show Him love, by having enough faith to obey. John 14:15, John 15:10, Revelation 14:12
It's one thing to say you love God, but its another to show Him. We do not obey to be saved, we obey because we love. Sin hurts God, so why would we want to hurt our blessed Savior and Creator?



This is a complete contradiction to these scriptures. God does not take away our free will, and we would not be in the position we are in with sin everywhere, because sin is not the will of God.

IF you love Me, keep MY commandment John 14:15

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. James 1:22

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Romans 2:13

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14
So, who is going to be able to judge me concerning whether I am being truly obedient to the Word of God or not?
 
Upvote 0