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There is no Hell!

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zerosaiyaman

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Ben, respond to a couple of mine

We're in revelation now?

the beast is the carnal nature?

Amil?
No, it is not. The end times are seven years long. That is from Daniel. Who, through his weeks (which symbolize seven year spans) prophesied perfectly the time span from the rebuilding of Jerusalem's wall till the entrance of the Messiah into Jerusalem. Perfectly. Then, there is a gap in time which is not defined. That is where we are now, it is the time of the gentiles. Then there is the final Seven Years, when the man of lawlessness comes to rule the world.

Sorry friend, but carnal natures and lawlessness has been around since before the flood. Things aren't any worst now than back then! Not yet anyways. Ok, now I am going to bed XD;
 
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Ben12

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JUDGEMENT UNTO VICTORY:


This is not the age in which we are supposed to be "need-conscious." This is the age in which we should become God-conscious and learn that He is going to meet all needs according to His own timing. This kind of God-consciousness requires a far different understanding of God's purpose for the ages than Christian Babylon has taught us. They have taught us for so long that if the sinners don't find help now, they will be "eternally lost" or will "suffer forever in hell." But the scripture is plain that as in Adam all died, so by Christ shall the same "all" be made alive. The words "in Christ" can just as accurately be translated "by Christ," - "but every man in his own order." If the iniquity of one man had the power to open the door and multiply itself to the extent that it is at today, dare we say that the death of Christ is any less effective? Romans 5:22 says, "Where sin abounds, Grace doth much more abound, and by One Man's righteousness (Christ) shall the free gift come upon all men." Romans chapter five makes it plain that whatever sin did, grace will do much more! It's not just tit for tat, but a more than overcoming. The negative effect of Adam's sin reached everyone on earth, but the restorative work of Christ will reach the entire cosmos until the universe will be better off that sin temporarily prevailed than if it had not existed at all.

"Behold My Servant (Jesus Christ), whom I have chosen; My beloved, in whom My soul is well pleased: I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He shall shew judgement to the Gentiles. A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgement unto victory. And in His Name shall the Gentiles trust." Matthew 12:18, 20 & 21
The ultimate result of God's judgements to come is that the nations will trust in Him. Every individual of every nation shall learn to trust in the Lord. This is the purpose of all of God's judgments. Luke 3:6 says, "All flesh shall see the salvation of God." When God's judgements have been fully executed it will have resulted in the knowledge of His salvation becoming experiential in all creation.

The word "judgement" is defined as "the act of judging, involving comparison, and discrimination by which knowledge of values and relations are mentally formulated." Or, in other words, judgement is the power of arriving at a wise decision. The end result of God's judgement is to bring correction and alignment to a state of rightness. When God pronounces judgement on a situation we realize that He has needed to correct it, and then He executes all the processing necessary until a right state of being has been brought forth.

Christian Babylon judges with their carnal mind. This is why their judgement is not wise. God's judgment will bring an end to all evil and establish righteousness throughout the universe. For years and years Christendom has waxed eloquent on its soap-box. They cry out to the people to come to Jesus, but the people can't come. God has not yet awakened a desire whin them to come to Jesus. They cannot come to Jesus because they love darkness rather than light. But when God's timing is ready, the Light of the world will come to them. The negative preachers of doom love to preach about the terrible things that are going to happen to people who do not come to the Light, but these same preachers are in darkness themselves. They cannot see that it is Jesus Christ, the Light who will come to the people, even though the people would not, indeed could not come to Him.

God may bring tragedy into your life. you may lose your job or your health, your house may burn down, your child, or even your spouse may die; but these things in themselves will not change you. You will remain the same selfish kind of person that you may have been before unless God shines light into the situation for you. When it is God's timing to shine His light into your life - then it will produce a change. His timing is always perfect. And it will require no negative message to effect the change. the powerful character of the Light Himself will effect any change that He desires.

David knew that God's judgement is only a means to an end and not an end in itself. In Psalm 119:43 he said, "take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth, for I have hoped in Thy judgements." And in 1 Chronicles 16:31-34 David said, "Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The Lord reigneth. Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof: let the fields rejoice, and all that is therein. Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the Lord, because He cometh to judge the earth. O give thanks unto the Lord; for He is good; for His mercy endures for all ages."
Christendom has taught us to fear the judgement, but they who know what God is really like will welcome the judgment, for it will bring about reconciliation to God for everyone who still needs to be reconciled. Reconciliation is the ultimate goal of all of God's judgements, and God never fails to reach His goals. As all of His judgments, God's final judgement will be an expression of His goodness and mercy. At the coming judgement the process of degeneration will be replaced by the process of regeneration. Man's judgement of sin is against you, but God's judgement of sin is for you. The light of God's judgement will bring everyone into life.
 
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Ben12

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OUR THREEFOLD JUDGEMENT:

Psalm 119:156 says, "Great are Thy tender mercies O Lord. Quicken me according to Thy judgements." Tradition has taught us that God's judgements are punitive, a way that God gets even with us for what we have done against Him. But the scripture tells us that His judgements bring us into life. Verse 175 says, "Let my soul live and it shall praise Thee; and let Thy judgements help me." The judgements of God are always ultimately helpful.

God has even transformed the judgement of death into that which works for our benefit. He took our greatest enemy death and changed it into a friend by using the death process as the means of releasing us from the power of sin that He might bring us into His more-abundant life. Through the death process God destroys all the negative kingdom by causing us to die out to it. This is absolutely marvelous! Colossians 2:14 says that Christ nailed to His cross all the judgements that are against us. And this is so all-inclusive that 11 Corinthians 5:19 says, "That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them." God has removed all the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them." God has removed all the "against" Judgments and replaced them with judgements that are only for us. This is beautiful! Romans 8:31 says, "If God be for us, who can be against us?" Because God is "for us" He controls the actions of those who would be against us and works them into good.
Even though the judgements of God will be against the evil works that man has done, those judgements will still result in man's salvation. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be save; yet so as by fire." No matter what a man has done, his ultimate salvation is secure; but his reward will depend on how much of his works stand up to the test of God's judgemental fire. The fire will judge the motivation behind the work and the faithfulness of the worker. The results of the work may not appear spectacular, but God is more interested in the quality of the worker than He is in their apparent accomplishments. We should endeavour to do everything that we do out of love for God and a desire to please Him. If we do this then our works will stand the test of the fire, even if they did not appear to be successful, and even if they appeared to cause more harm than good; for our reward will depend on our motivation and faithfulness, not on our apparent accomplishments.

 
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Isaiah 45:23-24 NIV

23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.' "
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

In the gospels, did demons even decry Jesus was Christ? They fell on their faces before him because they had to. In the day of judgment all will come before God and those who do not, will realize who he is, and they will be at shame for their unbelief. It is CLEAR what that means. All will acknowledge Him in the end, but still not all will love Him. And the time for such a thing will have come to an end.
I'm going to bed. G'night everyone and God bless.
 
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Ben12

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My strong contention is that the Church misunderstands the purpose of God’s judgments, and consequently, misrepresents His character to the world. Rather than viewing all of God’s judgments and punishments from the perspective of the “spiritual man,” Christians have instead interpreted them out of the “natural man”—a man desiring retribution against his enemies. Most of us have been taught that the “natural man” spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor. 2:14 applies only to unredeemed man, however, Christians are just as capable of thinking and walking in the natural (carnal) realm. One needs only to look at the current state of the church with all of its division and strife to see that this is true. This is why Paul exhorts us to “renew our minds” and to “walk in the Spirit.” It is for this very reason why I believe the Church has embraced the false doctrine of never-ending punishment. The “natural man” simply cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and so it is this same natural man who has ruled over the “new man” and prevented us from seeing the true purpose for God’s judgments.

Many read the Bible and see two contradictory views of God: first, the fiery God of judgment as described in the Old Testament, and second, the Christ of love as demonstrated in the New Testament. Some, confused by this apparent contradiction, reject the Bible as the inerrant Word of God. However, when we study the subject of God’s judgments, we must not take the “hard” passages by themselves, but instead, must study them in the light of God’s enduring love and mercy. Take them alone, and we have a god whose forgiveness and mercy is limited; but take them in light of God’s everlasting love and compassion and we see that there is no contradiction at all—the glove of God’s judgment fits perfectly over His hand of love.

The Bible declares “Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, THE LORD IS ONE.” This statement not only forms the basis of our monotheistic belief, but it also clearly declares that, in God, there is no variation or division. The number “one” is scripture means unity, united, undivided, or unfragmented. So when the Bible says, “God is one,” it is another way of saying that GOD CANNOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF. In Him there is no division, and since the Scriptures are the very Words of God, it also cannot contradict itself. For God to contradict Himself would mean that He is divided within Himself; for the Scriptures to contradict itself would bring discredit upon its inerrancy—both of which would be a fatal blow to the Christian faith. However, James says that in Him there is “no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” (Ja. 1:17) Praise His blessed name that there is no division found either in God or His life-breathed Word!

Let’s take one example—2 Thes. 1:8-9. Paul here tells us that God will punish those who obey not the gospel of Christ with everlasting destruction. Does he mean that these men will remain as sinners forever, to be tormented with never-ending punishments, OR could it be that, just like when Jesus did not mean we are to literally hate our loved ones, this passage does not speak of the eternal torture of men, but the everlasting destruction of the old nature and its evil deeds? The Church would have us believe the former, but I contend that their interpretation of this and many like passages contradicts the myriad of passages that speak of God’s love and mercy. By no means do we intend to make light of God’s judgment or in any way lessen the need for it. We do not object to God’s judgment as it is taught in the Holy Scriptures. However, we do object (and reject) the “orthodox” teaching that does not take God’s love into consideration when discussing His judgments, but instead puts Him in the unscriptural position of forever turning His back on billions and billions of people never again to show them love or mercy. This is just as wrong as believing that we are to literally “hate” our parents, or that we are to literally eat the body of Christ.

Let there be no doubt that God will destroy the wicked and all his evil works (Ps. 145:20; Ps. 7:9), but how can God judge the sinner yet not contradict His love for all men? The answer to this question is so very simple, and yet has been grasped by so few: God will destroy all sinners by making them friends! Paul tells us that this is exactly what happened to us.

For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life; (Rom. 5:10)
For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life; (Rom. 5:10)

We were once by nature, children of wrath (Eph. 2:3), and the sons of disobedience, (Eph. 2:2), and in fact, in our flesh, we are still yet enemies of the Cross. (Phil. 3:18) But just as God brought us from the depths of our despair and is in the process of changing us from an enemy to a friend, think it not a strange thing for God, who is rich in mercy and partial to none, to do this same work in other men in the ages to come. Col. 1:20 says that Christ will reconcile all things (lit. remove all enmity between two parties) to the Father by the blood of His Cross. God’s purpose for judgment is not to torment eternally, but to destroy all the evil works of the flesh, and when this great work of judgment is completed, all sinners along with their wickedness will have been totally destroyed—forever! In this essay, we will see that this process is not a pleasant one, nor will God spare any torment needed to accomplish His goal. The self-will and stubbornness of man will be completely broken by God’s righteous judgment, and what will come forth will be the “restoration of all things” (Acts 3:21) as every created thing will be brought to a full knowledge of God through the Cross of Jesus Christ. Phil. 2:10-11 says “that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” 1 Cor. 15:28 says that when this happens God will be “all in all.” There will not be a trace of sin or death in the entirety of God’s universe. What a day of rejoicing that will be!!
 
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Ben12

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(Isaiah 51:4)
Through the light of God's judgement all creation will be restored to harmony, tranquility and peace in Him. The process is not by escapism. None of us will escape the correctional process of God's judgements until they bring us into His peace. The grace of God will teach us all to "deny ungodliness."
We can be confident that the Lord will finish His work in each one of us. Christendom has fallen into the error that God started our salvation, but it if we don't help Him out He'll never be able to complete it. God is the author and the finisher and all the distance in between. he will impart His victorious life and live it out through us. He will work in us until we become steadfast and unmovable. He is able to keep us from stumbling, and he will do so after our stumbling has taught us the lessons that he wants us to learn. John 6:45 says that "all shall be taught of God."
Christian Babylon loves to preach the wrong kind of judgment. Babylon's judgment is eternal suffering in hell-fire. God's judgement "rests for a light." God's judgement is a correctional process that will bring each one of us into harmony with His desire. God's judgements will always rehabilitate us. They are always remedial and will produce an inner change of attitude that will condition us for salvation. His judgements will bring us into an alignment with His truth and righteousness as it rests for a light. All of God's judgements are the means to a good end for everyone. The marred vessel never leaves the hand of the divine Potter.
 
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Ben12

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No, it is not. The end times are seven years long. That is from Daniel. Who, through his weeks (which symbolize seven year spans) prophesied perfectly the time span from the rebuilding of Jerusalem's wall till the entrance of the Messiah into Jerusalem. Perfectly. Then, there is a gap in time which is not defined. That is where we are now, it is the time of the gentiles. Then there is the final Seven Years, when the man of lawlessness comes to rule the world.

Sorry friend, but carnal natures and lawlessness has been around since before the flood. Things aren't any worst now than back then! Not yet anyways. Ok, now I am going to bed XD;
The Jewish's Temple will never be built again in natural Israel; it will never happen; God has a temple right now; not built with human hands. that It is a spiritual temple within; is where God dwells. Not is some man made building.
 
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Ben12

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Isaiah 45:23-24 NIV

23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.' "
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

In the gospels, did demons even decry Jesus was Christ? They fell on their faces before him because they had to. In the day of judgment all will come before God and those who do not, will realize who he is, and they will be at shame for their unbelief. It is CLEAR what that means. All will acknowledge Him in the end, but still not all will love Him. And the time for such a thing will have come to an end.
I'm going to bed. G'night everyone and God bless.

Jer.31
“The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD .
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD ,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD . "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Luke 3: 6 (Amp)
And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

"I WILL pour My Spirit upon thy seed." (Isaiah 44:3).
"I WILL pour out My Spirit upon all flesh." (Joel 2:28).
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts
2:39).
Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 
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spiritlead

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The Jewish's Temple will never be built again in natural Israel; it will never happen; God has a temple right now; not built with human hands. that It is a spiritual temple within; is where God dwells. Not is some man made building.

:thumbsup: Jesus sacrifice was once, for all!!!!!
 
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RefrusRevlis

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Here is an excerpt from a study I did a few years ago called "The Nature of Man and His Death"(the whole thing is 31 pages - so I can't post it all).
I hope it is helpful:


If the dead exist after death, there must be some place of residence. The terms “Hades” and “Sheol” need examining to gain a picture of what they mean and how this affects our understanding of existence after death.
Matthew 10:28
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”


It is a pity that the King James Version translates two Greek works as one English word “hell”. It certainly makes things harder to understand. The two Greek words are “Hades” and “Gehenna”. Hades occurs 11 times in the NT and is never used to mean the grave, as some have suggested “sheol” means. Gehenna, the final abode of the wicked, is not the same as hades.


Spiros Zodhiates in his book The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, p81 has this to say:
“The state of human beings in Hades is immediate and irreversible after death, although it does not constitute the eternal state, for Hades itself later becomes the exclusive place for unbelievers. It is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14).”


On p82, he goes on to say,
“Unfortunately, both the OT and NT words have been translated in the KJV as “hell” (Ps 16:10) or the “grave” (Gen 37:35) or the “pit” (Numbers 16:30, 33). Hades never denotes the physical grave nor is it the permanent region of the lost. It is the intermediate state between death and the ultimate hell, Gehenna…” (emphasis mine)

Not every scholar is as adamant as Zodhiates, so it is necessary to look at a number of positions and to try to pull out a common thread.


The word Hades is derived from the Greek root words “a” which means “not” and “idein” which means, “to see”. It is therefore the unseen or the unseen realm.


The Hebrew word “Sheol” is defined a number of ways by lexicographers, from being the “grave” to being the “realm of the dead”. It must be noted that the Jew already had two words for “grave” - “keber” and “keboorah” (Strongs number 6913 and 6900). In the Septuagint (Greek Version of the OT) “Hades” is put for the Hebrew “Sheol” 61 out of 65 times, so we can be fairly confident that they are almost equivalent terms in the OT usage.


Girdlestone in his book Synonyms of the Old Testament pp306-308 deals with Sheol and Hades. He has this to say:
“There is no reason to doubt that what the grave or pit is to the body, Sheôwl (7585) is to the soul. It is the nether world, and perhaps this would be the best rendering of the word. Not in one single passage is it used in the sense of one place of punishment after the resurrection…”


The key to understanding what this word means, I believe, is in trying to grasp its most elementary meaning, or the root words from which it came.

From looking at the various verses, we can say this of Sheol: it is a place of separation form earthly affairs (Eccl 9:5-6):
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”


Note: The phrase “know not anything” does not prove unconsciousness or non-existence. Consider the following quote:


1 Sam 20:39
“But the lad knew not any thing: only Jonathan and David knew the matter.”
The lad in question did not know anything about the particular matter; it does not mean he was unconscious or non-existent.
(See also 2 Sam 15:11).
In Ecclesiastes, we have proof that the dead have no more part in or knowledge about earthly affairs, i.e. they know nothing about what occurs on the earth (“under the sun” means “on the earth”). We do not have proof that they cease to exist. (see also Neh 4:11)


The “Essence” of What “Sheol” Means


There is a clue to the essence of what Sheol means in the account of Jonah 2:1-2:
“Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish’s belly, 2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.”


When we think of Jonah’s situation, we can see that he was hidden from sight, in a dark place and he was separated from other people. He had no part in the things occurring in the world of the living, he was separated from it. He was unseen to those on the earth.
If we take the primary idea behind Hades and Sheol as being “unseen”, we can conclude that, depending on context, these words could refer both to the grave and to a “realm of the dead” where disembodied spirits abide awaiting the resurrection. If we consider the body of a person, Sheol would be the grave or receptacle of the body.


If we consider the spirit of a man, Sheol in this context, would be the state after death and before the resurrection. A person whose body is in the grave has had their spirit depart from their body. Therefore, if we refer to one, it would generally infer the other. The following quote conveys similar ideas to those just raised but in more scholarly terms:
“On the whole, death in the OT (apart from the Wisdom literature) does not suggest cessation of being or even loss of consciousness. It is, indeed, a radical change in existence, but one that does not altogether preclude existence. This explains the fluctuating and ambivalent nature of terms such as “abaddôn, bôr, hedel, šeōl [sheol], and šahat, all of which share the meaning “pit” or “grave” on the one hand, and the “underworld,” “abode of the dead” on the other. The grave, then, is an external, visible entree to and representative of an unseen different realm.”
The New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis Volume 2 p 888

Refrus
 
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LJSGM

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Here is an excerpt from a study I did a few years ago called "The Nature of Man and His Death"(the whole thing is 31 pages - so I can't post it all).
I hope it is helpful:


If the dead exist after death, there must be some place of residence. The terms “Hades” and “Sheol” need examining to gain a picture of what they mean and how this affects our understanding of existence after death.
Matthew 10:28
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”


It is a pity that the King James Version translates two Greek works as one English word “hell”. It certainly makes things harder to understand. The two Greek words are “Hades” and “Gehenna”. Hades occurs 11 times in the NT and is never used to mean the grave, as some have suggested “sheol” means. Gehenna, the final abode of the wicked, is not the same as hades.


Spiros Zodhiates in his book The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, p81 has this to say:
“The state of human beings in Hades is immediate and irreversible after death, although it does not constitute the eternal state, for Hades itself later becomes the exclusive place for unbelievers. It is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14).”


On p82, he goes on to say,
“Unfortunately, both the OT and NT words have been translated in the KJV as “hell” (Ps 16:10) or the “grave” (Gen 37:35) or the “pit” (Numbers 16:30, 33). Hades never denotes the physical grave nor is it the permanent region of the lost. It is the intermediate state between death and the ultimate hell, Gehenna…” (emphasis mine)

Not every scholar is as adamant as Zodhiates, so it is necessary to look at a number of positions and to try to pull out a common thread.


The word Hades is derived from the Greek root words “a” which means “not” and “idein” which means, “to see”. It is therefore the unseen or the unseen realm.


The Hebrew word “Sheol” is defined a number of ways by lexicographers, from being the “grave” to being the “realm of the dead”. It must be noted that the Jew already had two words for “grave” - “keber” and “keboorah” (Strongs number 6913 and 6900). In the Septuagint (Greek Version of the OT) “Hades” is put for the Hebrew “Sheol” 61 out of 65 times, so we can be fairly confident that they are almost equivalent terms in the OT usage.


Girdlestone in his book Synonyms of the Old Testament pp306-308 deals with Sheol and Hades. He has this to say:
“There is no reason to doubt that what the grave or pit is to the body, Sheôwl (7585) is to the soul. It is the nether world, and perhaps this would be the best rendering of the word. Not in one single passage is it used in the sense of one place of punishment after the resurrection…”


The key to understanding what this word means, I believe, is in trying to grasp its most elementary meaning, or the root words from which it came.

From looking at the various verses, we can say this of Sheol: it is a place of separation form earthly affairs (Eccl 9:5-6):
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”


Note: The phrase “know not anything” does not prove unconsciousness or non-existence. Consider the following quote:


1 Sam 20:39
“But the lad knew not any thing: only Jonathan and David knew the matter.”
The lad in question did not know anything about the particular matter; it does not mean he was unconscious or non-existent.
(See also 2 Sam 15:11).
In Ecclesiastes, we have proof that the dead have no more part in or knowledge about earthly affairs, i.e. they know nothing about what occurs on the earth (“under the sun” means “on the earth”). We do not have proof that they cease to exist. (see also Neh 4:11)


The “Essence” of What “Sheol” Means


There is a clue to the essence of what Sheol means in the account of Jonah 2:1-2:
“Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish’s belly, 2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.”


When we think of Jonah’s situation, we can see that he was hidden from sight, in a dark place and he was separated from other people. He had no part in the things occurring in the world of the living, he was separated from it. He was unseen to those on the earth.
If we take the primary idea behind Hades and Sheol as being “unseen”, we can conclude that, depending on context, these words could refer both to the grave and to a “realm of the dead” where disembodied spirits abide awaiting the resurrection. If we consider the body of a person, Sheol would be the grave or receptacle of the body.


If we consider the spirit of a man, Sheol in this context, would be the state after death and before the resurrection. A person whose body is in the grave has had their spirit depart from their body. Therefore, if we refer to one, it would generally infer the other. The following quote conveys similar ideas to those just raised but in more scholarly terms:
“On the whole, death in the OT (apart from the Wisdom literature) does not suggest cessation of being or even loss of consciousness. It is, indeed, a radical change in existence, but one that does not altogether preclude existence. This explains the fluctuating and ambivalent nature of terms such as “abaddôn, bôr, hedel, šeōl [sheol], and šahat, all of which share the meaning “pit” or “grave” on the one hand, and the “underworld,” “abode of the dead” on the other. The grave, then, is an external, visible entree to and representative of an unseen different realm.”
The New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis Volume 2 p 888

Refrus
do you have a website so that you could give us the other pages as well?
 
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Ben12

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Here is an excerpt from a study I did a few years ago called "The Nature of Man and His Death"(the whole thing is 31 pages - so I can't post it all).
I hope it is helpful:


If the dead exist after death, there must be some place of residence. The terms “Hades” and “Sheol” need examining to gain a picture of what they mean and how this affects our understanding of existence after death.
Matthew 10:28
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”


It is a pity that the King James Version translates two Greek works as one English word “hell”. It certainly makes things harder to understand. The two Greek words are “Hades” and “Gehenna”. Hades occurs 11 times in the NT and is never used to mean the grave, as some have suggested “sheol” means. Gehenna, the final abode of the wicked, is not the same as hades.


Spiros Zodhiates in his book The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, p81 has this to say:
“The state of human beings in Hades is immediate and irreversible after death, although it does not constitute the eternal state, for Hades itself later becomes the exclusive place for unbelievers. It is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14).”


On p82, he goes on to say,
“Unfortunately, both the OT and NT words have been translated in the KJV as “hell” (Ps 16:10) or the “grave” (Gen 37:35) or the “pit” (Numbers 16:30, 33). Hades never denotes the physical grave nor is it the permanent region of the lost. It is the intermediate state between death and the ultimate hell, Gehenna…” (emphasis mine)

Not every scholar is as adamant as Zodhiates, so it is necessary to look at a number of positions and to try to pull out a common thread.


The word Hades is derived from the Greek root words “a” which means “not” and “idein” which means, “to see”. It is therefore the unseen or the unseen realm.


The Hebrew word “Sheol” is defined a number of ways by lexicographers, from being the “grave” to being the “realm of the dead”. It must be noted that the Jew already had two words for “grave” - “keber” and “keboorah” (Strongs number 6913 and 6900). In the Septuagint (Greek Version of the OT) “Hades” is put for the Hebrew “Sheol” 61 out of 65 times, so we can be fairly confident that they are almost equivalent terms in the OT usage.


Girdlestone in his book Synonyms of the Old Testament pp306-308 deals with Sheol and Hades. He has this to say:
“There is no reason to doubt that what the grave or pit is to the body, Sheôwl (7585) is to the soul. It is the nether world, and perhaps this would be the best rendering of the word. Not in one single passage is it used in the sense of one place of punishment after the resurrection…”


The key to understanding what this word means, I believe, is in trying to grasp its most elementary meaning, or the root words from which it came.

From looking at the various verses, we can say this of Sheol: it is a place of separation form earthly affairs (Eccl 9:5-6):
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”


Note: The phrase “know not anything” does not prove unconsciousness or non-existence. Consider the following quote:


1 Sam 20:39
“But the lad knew not any thing: only Jonathan and David knew the matter.”
The lad in question did not know anything about the particular matter; it does not mean he was unconscious or non-existent.
(See also 2 Sam 15:11).
In Ecclesiastes, we have proof that the dead have no more part in or knowledge about earthly affairs, i.e. they know nothing about what occurs on the earth (“under the sun” means “on the earth”). We do not have proof that they cease to exist. (see also Neh 4:11)


The “Essence” of What “Sheol” Means


There is a clue to the essence of what Sheol means in the account of Jonah 2:1-2:
“Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish’s belly, 2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.”


When we think of Jonah’s situation, we can see that he was hidden from sight, in a dark place and he was separated from other people. He had no part in the things occurring in the world of the living, he was separated from it. He was unseen to those on the earth.
If we take the primary idea behind Hades and Sheol as being “unseen”, we can conclude that, depending on context, these words could refer both to the grave and to a “realm of the dead” where disembodied spirits abide awaiting the resurrection. If we consider the body of a person, Sheol would be the grave or receptacle of the body.


If we consider the spirit of a man, Sheol in this context, would be the state after death and before the resurrection. A person whose body is in the grave has had their spirit depart from their body. Therefore, if we refer to one, it would generally infer the other. The following quote conveys similar ideas to those just raised but in more scholarly terms:
“On the whole, death in the OT (apart from the Wisdom literature) does not suggest cessation of being or even loss of consciousness. It is, indeed, a radical change in existence, but one that does not altogether preclude existence. This explains the fluctuating and ambivalent nature of terms such as “abaddôn, bôr, hedel, šeōl [sheol], and šahat, all of which share the meaning “pit” or “grave” on the one hand, and the “underworld,” “abode of the dead” on the other. The grave, then, is an external, visible entree to and representative of an unseen different realm.”
The New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis Volume 2 p 888

Refrus
Not bad; except I do not agree on your assessment of Gehenna being hell. The Teutonic pagan word Hell Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.

Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the gospel. This is the word the fundamental preachers love to use to burn up the sinner. They are the first to yell foul if something does not fit in context; BUT: Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.

 
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Not bad; except I do not agree on your assessment of Gehenna being hell. The Teutonic pagan word Hell Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.

Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the gospel. This is the word the fundamental preachers love to use to burn up the sinner. They are the first to yell foul if something does not fit in context; BUT: Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.

Matthew 5:30

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

This doesn't speak of "brother" as you so call it.
Matthew 13:41

The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

1 Peter 4:18
And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
 
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LJSGM

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Matthew 13

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
 
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Ben12

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Matthew 5:30

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

This doesn't speak of "brother" as you so call it.
Matthew 13:41

The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

1 Peter 4:18
And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
Then show me who it talking too; the Jew. I will go along with that too; but understanding the Jew or the religous during Jesus day is a perfect symbolism of the Christian today. Pharasee or Baptisee samething.
 
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Ben12

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Matthew 13

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Amen, angel or messenger same thing; there are plenty of very religious people who are a far cry from righteous with God. Sure they are righteous in there little social group. I know you all believe all you got to say is Jesus forgive me and your perfect; and all set for heaven; just grab your harp at peters gate (Ops I think Jesus was the gate). I do not believe that as I said earlier there are two types of people in the Book of Revelations; those who overcome and those who do not. The overcomer will not be hurt by the second death.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

I would point you briefly to one plain and positive illustration which proceeded from the lips of our Lord Jesus Christ. Luke 12:36 "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delays his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the lord of that servant will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be BEATEN WITH MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be BEATEN WITH FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more" (Lk. 12:45-48).

In this parable it is plain that Christ is teaching degrees of punishment. The Christ teaches that those who have committed things worthy of many stripes, will receive many, and those who were ignorant, and with lesser light did not know or understand the will of God, yet did things worthy of stripes, shall receive but a few. Here is set forth in the plainest of language not only varying degrees of punishment, but also varying lengths of time for the punishment. What ever the judgment typified by the "stripes," it takes longer to inflict many stripes than just a few, so it should not be difficult to understand that some men are punished for a longer period of time than others. The Word of God declares that the Judge of all the earth shall do right, and I believe that He shall do just that. As our children were growing up we did not have one stock punishment for all their misdeeds. We suited the punishment to the disobedience, yet we haven't granted the same privilege to God! We have said that everyone is to receive the very same common punishment, hell fire, and that that judgment would endure for the very same length of time for all - eternity! How, then, I ask, can some be beaten with "many stripes" and others with "few stripes" if all receive the same punishment of endless hell fire? How foolish can we be! It is always extremely foolish to hold to a doctrine that clearly contradicts the Word of God
There would be no answer to your argument; I would be forced to throw up my hands and admit that these words of our Lord apply only to the correction and discipline of servants of the Lord, and have absolutely no bearing whatever on the judgment of unbelievers, or on hell, or on the lake of fire, were it not for one significant statement that appears in verse forty-six. The Lord says, "The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looks not for Him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S." Do you see that? Ah, the punishment of this SERVANT is the SAME PUNISHMENT as the UNBELIEVER receives! He is appointed his portion WITH THE UNBELIEVERS! The punishment, therefore, of this servant of the Lord and the punishment of the unbelievers is equal, identical, of the same intensity, for the same length of time, the very same punishment, and that punishment is? -MANY STRIPES! Not unending stripes; not everlasting whipping; not eternal torment under the hands of the tormentors; but - many stripes. And of what precise judgment speaks our Lord when He commands "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers?" What is the "portion of the unbelievers?" Hear it! "But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING ... shall have their part (portion) IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE" (Rev. 21:8). The "portion of the unbelievers" is the lake of fire. And not only are the unbelievers judged there, but the unfaithful servants of God are dealt with there, too! And, by Jesus' own words, this punishment is called "many stripes," and is shown to be limited in its duration and corrective and remedial in its nature.

 
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JFSA

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1 John 4:1 states:
“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world”.


One of the debaters in this string has put forward Origen as an example of the authenticity of their claim that no human being is destined for eternal punishment, and that there is no place where this punishment could take place.

Let’s quickly have a look at some of Origen’s credentials:
“The patriarch of Alexandria at first supported Origen but later expelled him for being ordained without the patriarch's permission”.

“He espoused a Platonic (Greek pagan) view of eternal souls achieving perfection while escaping the temporary, imperfect material world. He imagined even demons being reunited with God”.


“A series of attacks on him seems to have emanated from Alexandria, whether for his self-castration (a capital crime in Roman law) or for alleged heterodoxy (at variance with established or accepted doctrines or beliefs) is unknown; but at all events these fulminations were heeded only at Rome, while Palestine, Phoenicia, Arabia, and Achaia paid no attention to them.”

“Origen distinctly emphasised the independence of the Logos as well as the distinction from the being and substance of God. The term "of the same substance with the Father" was not employed. He (Jesus) is merely an image, a reflex not to be compared with God; as one among other "gods", of course first in rank”.

“Origen's concept of the Logos allowed him to make no definite statement on the redemptive work of Jesus. Since sin was ultimately only negative as a lack of pure knowledge, the activity of Jesus was essentially example and instruction, and his human life was only incidental as contrasted with the immanent cosmic activity of the Logos. Origen regarded the death of Jesus as a sacrifice, paralleling it with other cases of self-sacrifice for the general good. On this, Origen's accord with the teachings of the Church was merely superficial”.

It is evident from these facts that Origen preached a gospel that was different to the pre-orthodox gospel accepted by the majority of the Christians of his day.

It is also evident that this heresy is now being presented again in this post. Has anything changed in Christian circles that suggests that we should reconsider the issue? I suggest not. The majority of Christians for the last two thousand years have accepted the historical and doctrinal truth that people who choose not to follow Christ shall be cast into the “great lake of fire.” No new evidence has been put forward to the contrary.

I accordingly suggest that the majority of us continue to accept the fact that the historical doctrine of hell is the true viewpoint of Jesus Himself, as well as the eleven original Apostles and the Apostle Paul.

As for the minority of you that do not accept this doctrine, I accept your fundamental right to believe in what you choose to believe in, but please do not present your viewpoint as fact when this is clearly not justifiable.
 
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stone

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1 Samuel 28:7-14 7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
 
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stone

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Re 17:8 - Show Context The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
 
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