There is no Hell!

[Ben12]

1 John 4:1 states:
“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world”.

One of the debaters in this string has put forward Origen as an example of the authenticity of their claim that no human being is destined for eternal punishment, and that there is no place where this punishment could take place.

Let’s quickly have a look at some of Origen’s credentials:
“The patriarch of Alexandria at first supported Origen but later expelled him for being ordained without the patriarch's permission”.

“He espoused a Platonic (Greek pagan) view of eternal souls achieving perfection while escaping the temporary, imperfect material world. He imagined even demons being reunited with God”.

“A series of attacks on him seems to have emanated from Alexandria, whether for his self-castration (a capital crime in Roman law) or for alleged heterodoxy (at variance with established or accepted doctrines or beliefs) is unknown; but at all events these fulminations were heeded only at Rome, while Palestine, Phoenicia, Arabia, and Achaia paid no attention to them.”

“Origen distinctly emphasised the independence of the Logos as well as the distinction from the being and substance of God. The term "of the same substance with the Father" was not employed. He (Jesus) is merely an image, a reflex not to be compared with God; as one among other "gods", of course first in rank”.

“Origen's concept of the Logos allowed him to make no definite statement on the redemptive work of Jesus. Since sin was ultimately only negative as a lack of pure knowledge, the activity of Jesus was essentially example and instruction, and his human life was only incidental as contrasted with the immanent cosmic activity of the Logos. Origen regarded the death of Jesus as a sacrifice, paralleling it with other cases of self-sacrifice for the general good. On this, Origen's accord with the teachings of the Church was merely superficial”.

It is evident from these facts that Origen preached a gospel that was different to the pre-orthodox gospel accepted by the majority of the Christians of his day.

It is also evident that this heresy is now being presented again in this post. Has anything changed in Christian circles that suggests that we should reconsider the issue? I suggest not. The majority of Christians for the last two thousand years have accepted the historical and doctrinal truth that people who choose not to follow Christ shall be cast into the “great lake of fire.” No new evidence has been put forward to the contrary.

I accordingly suggest that the majority of us continue to accept the fact that the historical doctrine of hell is the true viewpoint of Jesus Himself, as well as the eleven original Apostles and the Apostle Paul.

As for the minority of you that do not accept this doctrine, I accept your fundamental right to believe in what you choose to believe in, but please do not present your viewpoint as fact when this is clearly not justifiable.

Wow the Jews were also very well known for their histoical doctrine and traditions; and Jesus the Messiah; the very King of Kings who they were looking for, and they still are looking for; totally missed His coming.

Truth in scripture comes from three sourses; the corn (God's Word (logos), the wine the revelation of the Spirit; and the oil (the anointing). Truth is progressive; it like a flowing river, not stagnet like a stinky old pond that just sits there; like the tradition of men.

 

[Tavita]

1 John 4:1 states:
“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world”.

One of the debaters in this string has put forward Origen as an example of the authenticity of their claim that no human being is destined for eternal punishment, and that there is no place where this punishment could take place.

Let’s quickly have a look at some of Origen’s credentials:
“The patriarch of Alexandria at first supported Origen but later expelled him for being ordained without the patriarch's permission”.

“He espoused a Platonic (Greek pagan) view of eternal souls achieving perfection while escaping the temporary, imperfect material world. He imagined even demons being reunited with God”.

“A series of attacks on him seems to have emanated from Alexandria, whether for his self-castration (a capital crime in Roman law) or for alleged heterodoxy (at variance with established or accepted doctrines or beliefs) is unknown; but at all events these fulminations were heeded only at Rome, while Palestine, Phoenicia, Arabia, and Achaia paid no attention to them.”

“Origen distinctly emphasised the independence of the Logos as well as the distinction from the being and substance of God. The term "of the same substance with the Father" was not employed. He (Jesus) is merely an image, a reflex not to be compared with God; as one among other "gods", of course first in rank”.

“Origen's concept of the Logos allowed him to make no definite statement on the redemptive work of Jesus. Since sin was ultimately only negative as a lack of pure knowledge, the activity of Jesus was essentially example and instruction, and his human life was only incidental as contrasted with the immanent cosmic activity of the Logos. Origen regarded the death of Jesus as a sacrifice, paralleling it with other cases of self-sacrifice for the general good. On this, Origen's accord with the teachings of the Church was merely superficial”.

It is evident from these facts that Origen preached a gospel that was different to the pre-orthodox gospel accepted by the majority of the Christians of his day.

It is also evident that this heresy is now being presented again in this post. Has anything changed in Christian circles that suggests that we should reconsider the issue? I suggest not. The majority of Christians for the last two thousand years have accepted the historical and doctrinal truth that people who choose not to follow Christ shall be cast into the “great lake of fire.” No new evidence has been put forward to the contrary.

I accordingly suggest that the majority of us continue to accept the fact that the historical doctrine of hell is the true viewpoint of Jesus Himself, as well as the eleven original Apostles and the Apostle Paul.

As for the minority of you that do not accept this doctrine, I accept your fundamental right to believe in what you choose to believe in, but please do not present your viewpoint as fact when this is clearly not justifiable.

Origen was not the first or the only one to believe in the salvation of all...

In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Cesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality, and one (Carthage or Rome) taught the endless punishment of the lost.

These are not taken from Wikipedia..
Irenaeus of Lyons, Gaul (120-202 A.D.)
Clement of Alexandria (150-213 A.D.)
Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.)
Origen was a student of Clement who became the head of the school in Alexandria after Clement was forced to flee. Origen is the most well-known of the early teachers of the restoration of all things. He wrote extensively and was the first to write a systematic theology of early Church belief. For this reason, the people today who oppose the teaching of restoration often call it “Origenism,” as if to imply that it was invented and believed almost exclusively by this one man and a few followers.
But such a view merely portrays either prejudice or ignorance, since Origen did not differ substantially from the teachings of Clement, his mentor, or Pantaenus before him. In Volume 6 of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, page 3, in the introduction to the writings of Gregory Thaumaturgus, the editors tell us,
“Alexandria continues to be the head of Christian learning. . . We have already observed the continuity of the great Alexandrian school; how it arose, and how Pantaenus begat Clement, and Clement begat Origen. So Origen begat Gregory, and so the Lord has provided for the spiritual generation of the Church’s teachers, age after age, from the beginning. Truly, the Lord gave to Origen a holy seed, better than natural sons and daughters.”
Origen is more well known than Clement or Pantaenus, because he produced the first real systematic theology in the early Church, called First Principles. And so he later became the “lightning rod” of his opponents’ wrath. Hence, the doctrine of the restoration of all things has been mislabeled “Origenism,” as if to imply that he invented the teaching. Nothing could be further from the truth, as every good Church historian knows.
Novation of Rome (circa 250 A.D.)
Didymus the Blind (308-395 A.D.)
Gregory of Nazianzen, Bishop of Constantinople (325-390 A.D.)
Gregory, Bishop of Nyassa (335-395 A.D.)
Jerome, Bishop of Bethlehem (340-419 A.D.)
etc..

Then we have Augustine who brought in the concept of never ending torture..

Augustine’s Misunderstanding
Matthew 25:46 has been used since the time of Augustine, the bishop of Hippo, in the early fifth century to prove that aionian means an unending duration of time. Though Augustine spoke eloquently in Latin, he did not speak Greek. Thus, he was unfamiliar with the language of the New Testament, except insofar as it had been translated into Latin. Peter Brown tells us in his book, Augustine of Hippo, p. 36,
“Augustine’s failure to learn Greek was a momentous casualty of the late Roman educational system; he will become the only Latin philosopher in antiquity to be virtually ignorant of Greek.”
Worse yet, the more influential Augustine became, the less the Latin Christians felt the need to read the New Testament in Greek. Peter Brown says again on p. 272,
“Gradually the ‘learned fellowship’ would cease to feel the need for Greek books. For they had Augustine.”
Perhaps this is a good illustration of what Jesus said in Matthew 6:23,
23 . . . If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness.
The Christians in the Latin-speaking Church took Augustine’s word for it that aionios meant everlasting. This was their “light,” but unfortunately, their light was darkness. And even today, most of the popular translations have continued to mistranslate aionios. So average Christians today who read the easy-reading Bibles do not realize that what they think is light (in regard to future rewards and judgments) is actually darkness.
In Book XXI, chapter xxiii, of Augustine’s City of God, he sets forth his argument that the judgment upon the unbelievers would be unending torture in fire. His argument is based upon the Latin translation of Matthew 25:46, which we have already quoted earlier. Augustine interprets this passage in this way:
“For Christ said in the very same place, including both in one and the same sentence: ‘So these will go into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’ If both are eternal, then surely both must be understood as ‘long,’ but having an end, or else as ‘everlasting’ without an end. For they are matched with each other. In one clause eternal punishment, in the other eternal life. (To say) “eternal life shall be without end, (but) eternal punishment will have an end’ is utterly absurd. Hence, since eternal life of the saints will be without end, eternal punishment also will surely have no end, for those whose lot it is.”
The primary problem is that Augustine did not understand the Hebrew concept of “The Age.” He presumed that aionios life was the same as immortality, instead of seeing that it referred specifically to life (immortality) during the Messianic Age. To inherit life during this Age means to be an inheritor of the first resurrection promised to the overcomers alone. The rest of humanity, and even the rest of the Christians, will not receive their immortality until the end of the Messianic Age at the Great White Throne. We showed this in Chapter Four, quoting Jesus’ words in John 5:28, 29, as well as His parable in Luke 12:42-49. Augustine did not understand this concept.


I guess it's easy to copy and paste from other sources. It depends on what you're looking for.

 

[Brucea]

Luke 16:19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"


Jesus is not a liar. Here is a man being tormented in the flame and not being burned up!

If you will not hear what Jesus said! A man in torment and in a flame with no way out. Jesus said the worm dieth not and the flame is not quenched.

Turn the words of Christ into whatever you want. What if your eternal soul depends on you accepting His Words.

Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched;
44 "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched;
46 "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire;
48 "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'


It is a real place Jesus is not a liar!

Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

The worm is evil men. They are not being consumed by the flame!!!!

There is a such thing as eternal damnation! Even though some here are claiming otherwise.

29 "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation";


Jesus said eternal condemnation with out the possibility of fogiveness not in this life or the life to come!

Jeus is not a liar!

They are many who will twist the Word of God to their own destruction!!!

2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

To believe a lie and be damned is a aweful place to be in, yet some are!

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Bruce A

Eternal damnation

 

[Ben12]

Luke 16:19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"


Jesus is not a liar. Here is a man being tormented in the flame and not being burned up!

If you will not hear what Jesus said! A man in torment and in a flame with no way out. Jesus said the worm dieth not and the flame is not quenched.

Turn the words of Christ into whatever you want. What if your eternal soul depends on you accepting His Words.

Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched;
44 "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched;
46 "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire;
48 "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'


It is a real place Jesus is not a liar!

Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

The worm is evil men. They are not being consumed by the flame!!!!

There is a such thing as eternal damnation! Even though some here are claiming otherwise.

29 "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation";


Jesus said eternal condemnation with out the possibility of fogiveness not in this life or the life to come!

Jeus is not a liar!

They are many who will twist the Word of God to their own destruction!!!

2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

To believe a lie and be damned is a aweful place to be in, yet some are!

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Bruce A

Eternal damnation

No one is saying that Jesus is a liar what we are saying is religion is a liar; religious men of the pass as well as now have tampered with the language of the Bible to prove their doctrines of Damnations. When you open your eyes and seek the reality of scripture hell is a lie; the whole doctrine is full of holes. Hell is not even in the original language of the Bible. There is not a more horrible doctrine or creed in this whole world then this doctrine of eternal torment, billions upon billions will not be just tortured, mutilated, and what ever the carnal mind can come up with. You would better off be in the hands of Stalin, Mao and Hitler; BUT much worse they would only kill you; besides they only killed millions not the billions this damnable heresy would torture and torment; hell is inexcusable and far from just. This is not the lamb of God, or the Lion of Judah; the bright and morning star, the king of kings, Lord of Lords; sorry this doctrine is so contrary to God’s love. The parable of Lazarus is just that a parable; turn the light on.

 

[Brucea]

No one is saying that Jesus is a liar what we are saying is religion is a liar; religious men of the pass as well as now have tampered with the language of the Bible to prove their doctrines of Damnations. When you open your eyes and seek the reality of scripture hell is a lie; the whole doctrine is full of holes. Hell is not even in the original language of the Bible. There is not a more horrible doctrine or creed in this whole world then this doctrine of eternal torment, billions upon billions will not be just tortured, mutilated, and what ever the carnal mind can come up with. You would better off be in the hands of Stalin, Mao and Hitler; BUT much worse they would only kill you; besides they only killed millions not the billions this damnable heresy would torture and torment; hell is inexcusable and far from just. This is not the lamb of God, or the Lion of Judah; the bright and morning star, the king of kings, Lord of Lords; sorry this doctrine is so contrary to God’s love. The parable of Lazarus is just that a parable; turn the light on.

The bible does not call this a parable!!!

God wrath being pored out on man and satan and the anti-christ are not opposing His love.
You are chosing the scriptures you want to be true and igoring what you don't like about the Word of God.

You are trying to convince people that Jesus made up some parable about a man burning and in torment and the fire is not consuming him.
You say it is a parable. Strange it would be the only paraable in the Bible that put a man's name in it!

Jesus is not lying about some place that does not exsist. Nor was he lying about a place where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched. Isaiah talked about the worms in judgment that could not die! This my friend is sinful man!

You need to receive the fullness of who God is not just the parts you chose to like about Him.

He is a God of vengeance!
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus declared there was an unforgivable sin! The only thing left for that one is judgment. No forgiveness in this live or in the life to come!

Of course if you can change the bible verse and say they don't really mean what they say, we are left with a free for all. Anyone can believe anything and it don't matter.
No need to preach the word of righteousness. No need to preach about the earth burning with fervent heat. Hey we all end up in the same place anyways. You are propitiating a different gospel.

Do not be deceived what ever a man sows that shall he also reap. Everlasting punishment is real! If you sow to the flesh you will reap of its corruption!!

Bruce A

 

[SoundCard]

We're not talking about doctrine here, and we're not talking about what others have said. We have scripture here of Jesus Christ himself saying there is such a thing as eternal damnation.

 

[LJSGM]

Wow the Jews were also very well known for their histoical doctrine and traditions; and Jesus the Messiah; the very King of Kings who they were looking for, and they still are looking for; totally missed His coming.

Truth in scripture comes from three sourses; the corn (God's Word (logos), the wine the revelation of the Spirit; and the oil (the anointing). Truth is progressive; it like a flowing river, not stagnet like a stinky old pond that just sits there; like the tradition of men.

Not all of the Jews rejected Jesus, just mostly those who lost their promise through unbelief. Many did humble themselves before Christ. I suppose you could say that many who were "stuck" on the traditions of men could not give them up and believe.

Yes, I don't exactly like the traditions of Men either, which is partly why I don't go to church on Sundays. But how does this verify universalism?

Logos, the Holy spirit and the anointing are all just different names for the same thing. And yes, the Holy Spirit flows freely, not to be put into little boxes. But christians do not do that when they are following truth, for the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth and is a firm foundation that we can rely on. It's man's tranditions that box up the Holy Spirit. The truth of man's destination has been revealed to us through the scriptures, it is not a "tradition" as you so call it, but a truth and an unchanging one.

Do you really think that God would deliberately decieve us by lying to us in his scriptures? No, he tells the truth and I have confidence that he reveals himself through those scriptures. If there is a hidden meaning, it will not contradict the rest of the scriptures and what has been plainly spoken. God does not lie in order to decieve, but he might give us over to our own perverted lies that we have decided to believe instead of what's plainly spoken in the scriptures.

God wants all men to be saved, he even made it easy for us. Why would he put a stumbling stone (lies in the scriptures) in almost everyone's path (except yours) so that no one is saved? He wants men to be tortured for a long time?

 

[Ben12]

The bible does not call this a parable!!!

God wrath being pored out on man and satan and the anti-christ are not opposing His love.
You are chosing the scriptures you want to be true and igoring what you don't like about the Word of God.

You are trying to convince people that Jesus made up some parable about a man burning and in torment and the fire is not consuming him.
You say it is a parable. Strange it would be the only paraable in the Bible that put a man's name in it!

Jesus is not lying about some place that does not exsist. Nor was he lying about a place where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched. Isaiah talked about the worms in judgment that could not die! This my friend is sinful man!

You need to receive the fullness of who God is not just the parts you chose to like about Him.

He is a God of vengeance!
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus declared there was an unforgivable sin! The only thing left for that one is judgment. No forgiveness in this live or in the life to come!

Of course if you can change the bible verse and say they don't really mean what they say, we are left with a free for all. Anyone can believe anything and it don't matter.
No need to preach the word of righteousness. No need to preach about the earth burning with fervent heat. Hey we all end up in the same place anyways. You are propitiating a different gospel.

Do not be deceived what ever a man sows that shall he also reap. Everlasting punishment is real! If you sow to the flesh you will reap of its corruption!!

Bruce A

You are right the Bible does not call it a parable; but that whole part of the Bible is full of parables.

THE RICH MAND AND LAZARUS: Luke chapter 16
Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.
The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."
Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.
The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.
Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.
The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.
But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).
Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

 

[Ben12]

Not all of the Jews rejected Jesus, just mostly those who lost their promise through unbelief. Many did humble themselves before Christ. I suppose you could say that many who were "stuck" on the traditions of men could not give them up and believe.

Yes, I don't exactly like the traditions of Men either, which is partly why I don't go to church on Sundays. But how does this verify universalism?

Logos, the Holy spirit and the anointing are all just different names for the same thing. And yes, the Holy Spirit flows freely, not to be put into little boxes. But christians do not do that when they are following truth, for the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth and is a firm foundation that we can rely on. It's man's tranditions that box up the Holy Spirit. The truth of man's destination has been revealed to us through the scriptures, it is not a "tradition" as you so call it, but a truth and an unchanging one.

Do you really think that God would deliberately decieve us by lying to us in his scriptures? No, he tells the truth and I have confidence that he reveals himself through those scriptures. If there is a hidden meaning, it will not contradict the rest of the scriptures and what has been plainly spoken. God does not lie in order to decieve, but he might give us over to our own perverted lies that we have decided to believe instead of what's plainly spoken in the scriptures.

God wants all men to be saved, he even made it easy for us. Why would he put a stumbling stone (lies in the scriptures) in almost everyone's path (except yours) so that no one is saved? He wants men to be tortured for a long time?

Praise God for thinking out side the box. Heb. 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. I agree many Jew left their traditions and followed Christ; and many of them later went back and tried to hold onto as many of the Jewish traditions as possible; but it was a new day and a new message; the blood of sheep and goats no longer was acceptable to God; God’s lamb who He preordained replaced all their traditions. I love symbolism of Rachel who sat on the traditions of the father; it is so appropriate today. We are suppose to seek ask and knock,

Rachel who was the chosen bride who gave birth to Joseph (type of Jesus) and Benjamin (the overcomer); she was not one of the other wives or maid servants who birthed half brothers. She lost out in the greater promise because she sat on the images of her father?

Genesis 31: (King James Version). 34Now Rachel had taken the images, and put them in the camel's furniture, and sat upon them. And Laban searched all the tent, but found them not.

She died in Child birth given birth to a man child; just like the church in revelation.
My faith has very little to do with universalism a label I did not even knew I had until maybe two years ago. It is that hidden manna; hidden mystery beyond the letter that killeth; how many Christian do not even know of these things; and if they do they try to fit them it their little box.
Logos, the Holy Spirit and the anointing are all just different names for the same thing; I agree.
2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, What does this verse say? I sent you a whole list of this verse; don’t ask me; read the scripture.
Yes God does want all men to be saved; and if God wants something it will happen. The reason God puts a stumbling block is because religious men not sinners would rather harden their heart then ask God what is He saying. All men will be saved; but in God’s timing not the tradition of religion.
Sorry there are thousands of people that are hearing God; not Baby lon

 

[Ben12]

We're not talking about doctrine here, and we're not talking about what others have said. We have scripture here of Jesus Christ himself saying there is such a thing as eternal damnation.

The Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it “eirgmos aidios” (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton
(endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (age long chastisement)

 

[SoundCard]

You are right the Bible does not call it a parable; but that whole part of the Bible is full of parables.

THE RICH MAND AND LAZARUS: Luke chapter 16
Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.
The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."
Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.
The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.
Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.
The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.
But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).
Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

Ok, I just have to ask. Where exactly did all those lines get connected at?

 

[Tavita]

You are right the Bible does not call it a parable; but that whole part of the Bible is full of parables.

THE RICH MAND AND LAZARUS: Luke chapter 16
Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.
The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."
Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.
The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.
Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.
The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.
But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).
Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

The story of Abraham and Lazarus IS a parable, one of five that Jesus told in Luke chapters 15 and 16. The setting is one where we find Him speaking to the crowds and the sinners and tax-collectors came near. We then see the Pharisee's murmuring against Him for receiving and eating with them.

Luk 15:3 And He spoke this parable to them, saying,

The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is "the parable this.." This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, "And He spoke this parable unto them," was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - "this parable"? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, "He spoke this parable unto them," this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke.

They are parables of the Kingdom. It was not meant to be a teaching about hell.

And your post is correct, Ben12 !

 

[Tavita]

Ok, I just have to ask. Where exactly did all those lines get connected at?

If you study out this parable and the symbolism also used in other parts of the bible it will become apparent what the parable was about.

 

[SoundCard]

Matthew 5 NIV

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Here we see a warning of condemnation in Hell.

1 John 4 NIV

7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[b] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Here it says God loves us so he sent his Son to atone for our sins. If hell is not a permanent place, why was he sacrificed?

Jude 1 NIV

3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.




It says yes the Good News is Salvation in Christ, yet it also clearly says the punishment of the ungodly is eternal fire. The only possible explanation is the lake of fire.

Revelation 20 NIV



11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.



It clearly says there are those who will be sent to the lake of fire. And if prior scripture is an indicator, their punishment is eternal. I know we all believe God to be a God of love, and he is. He is also a God of ultimate righteousness and justice. What justice is there in an empty sacrifice of his own Son? I say empty, because what you tell me, what you tell everyone on this board, is that hell is not an eternal event. And I cannot stress this enough, if there is no eternal punishment for inequity in sin, then why did Christ die on the cross for us? What atonement is there in such a thing? What does it all amount to then? Is that an act of Grace if there is no need for it? It becomes not an act of ultimate love and Grace, it becomes an act of futility in the light you cast on it. Why stress so direly the need to repent and have Faith in Christ? I do not like the idea of condemnation, but again I cannot stress enough, it is now I personally feel about it that determines if it is just! If God has decreed this, then there is nothing more to be said. If God's sacrifice in Christ is to have meaning, it must stand for that which is of the highest order of importance.


Have faith in Christ, or you will not see the Light of Heaven, but the fire of hell for you have not repented and you will be punished according to what God's law has established. The wage of sin is death, the price is paid only by Christ. There are those who will reject this, and because the wage is death, they must be destroyed by God's decree, and their ruin will be eternal. Reconciliation through hell fire is a lie. God has sent his Son for our atonement, and he has made the lake of fire for sin and the sinner who are unrepentant. I am no better than you, I am a sinner just the same but I have faith in Christ, and it is only by this I can be spared. There are no other roads to Him save the one who died on the Cross.

Anything else is a false doctrine, and I simply cannot believe such a thing. This is my last post in this thread. You can call me a coward for retreating, but honestly how much has been said here? How much have you given to support this other than symbolism which you a select group see? You say thousands have the same view as you. Yet how many millions have no Faith in Christ at all? I am thankful you believe in Christ! But to say hell is not the eternal doom which Christ says it is, what the prophets of the Lord say it is, that robs his sacrifice of meaning and purpose. It is all for naught, and God is not one for meaningless action.

 

[IisJustMe]

Those of you who want to believer there is no hell, and therefore no eternal punishment apart from God, so be it.

The Hebrew scholars, as many have pointed out, knew the truth that hell is real, and the final destination of those who fail to know Jesus in this life. The Bible teaches other than what you believe, no matter how many verses you post, misinterpret, and fail to grasp.

 

[Ben12]

We have already debated this verse and all the verses reference to Gehenna. Who is this verse addressing; do you see heathen, sinner; the only one I can find this verse is addressing is “brother”. You can call this brother a Jew or what ever; the pattern points to God’s people who offend their brother. What is Gehenna; I mean not according to the tradition of religion; but scripture.

word geena NT:1067

geena (gheh'-en-nah); of Hebrew origin [OT:1516 and OT:2011]; valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:

I quess I better start addressing the two Greek words and one English word that simple mean age or ages.

Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the gospel. This is the word the fundamental preachers love to use to burn up the sinner. They are the first to yell foul if something does not fit in context; BUT: Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified bf God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER” this could be reference to the Jews/carnal Christian but not sinners. (No where in the twelve verse in NT does it mention heathen/or the lost/sinners/etc?)

Matthew 5 NIV

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

The below listed verse are good reference to Gehenna.

Isaiah 30:33
Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.

Jeremiah 7:31-32
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Jeremiah 19:13-15
The houses in Jerusalem and those of the kings of Judah will be defiled like this place, Topheth—all the houses where they burned incense on the roofs to all the starry hosts and poured out drink offerings to other gods.' "

Jeremiah then returned from Topheth, where the LORD had sent him to prophesy, and stood in the court of the LORD's temple and said to all the people, "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: 'Listen! I am going to bring on this city and the villages around it every disaster I pronounced against them, because they were stiff-necked and would not listen to my words.' "

That is Gehenna Judgment that Jesus came and warned Isreal about.

Matthew 23:29-39

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate.For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'

Jeremiah 7:33-34
" 'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.

Do you see it? This is the Judgment of Gehenna against Israel and all who persist in unbelief. However; although this happens it is not the end. God through Jesus, is restoring Israel, but not the natural nation but a spiritual nation of all mankind. All have sinned, none are righteous, no not one. All have been disobedient and therefore mercy is over them all.

Jeremiah 27:22
'They will be taken to Babylon and there they will remain until the day I come for them,' declares the LORD. 'Then I will bring them back and restore them to this place.' "

Jeremiah 30:18
"This is what the LORD says: " 'I will restore the fortunes of Jacob's tents and have compassion on his dwellings; the city will be rebuilt on her ruins, and the palace will stand in its proper place.

Jeremiah 33:11
the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bride and bridegroom, and the voices of those who bring thank offerings to the house of the LORD, saying, "Give thanks to the LORD Almighty, for the LORD is good; his love endures forever." For I will restore the fortunes of the land as they were before,' says the LORD.

 

[Ben12]

"Now, I knew enough traditional teaching on this word (aeonios), which is from another Greek word, aion, meaning "age." ; aion and aeonios are not two completely different words What I see today and especially though the history of Christianity are men of God who will do anything to defend this tortuous unjust religious heresies; this will include to place the incorrect definitions in dictionary's and all kinds of Bible reference.

This happened so obviously Scofield Bible in the false doctrine of the rapture; and is happen in manifest ways when it comes to these three simple words that billions are condemned over by bias religious so called statesmen. They are the noun and adjective form of the same word, just as hour is a noun and hourly is an adjective. One cannot rationally say that the meaning of a word is changed to mean its opposite simply by changing its usage from noun to adjective without violating all the rules of English and translation. Aion means "age. But the word aeonios does not mean the opposite of its noun origin. As hourly means, "pertaining to the hour," so aeonios means "pertaining to the age."

"This word aion occurs in the New Testament in so many peculiar and varying forms as to make it certain that it expresses some deep and important meaning well worth searching out. First we have the simple word many times repeated, both in the singular and plural. Then we have the word in combination with several prepositions: from the age, Luke 1:70; from the ages, Eph. 3:9; out of the ages, John 9:32; before the ages, 1 Cor. 2:7; before times of ages or before age-times, Tim. 1;2, the purpose of the ages, Eph. 3:11 (N.V. margin); the age to come, Heb. 6:5; the ages to come, Eph. 2:7; the end of the age; Matt. 24:3; the end of the ages, Heb. 9:26; the ends of the ages, 1 Cor. 10:11.

Furthermore in connection with the preposition unto we find the following remarkable changes:

1. Unto the age. Mark 3:29.
2. Unto the ages. Luke 1:33.
3. Unto all the ages. Jude 25.
4. Unto the age of the age. Heb. 1:8.
5. Unto all the generations of the age of the ages. Eph. 3:21.
6. Unto the ages of the ages. Rev. 1:6.
7. Unto the day of an age. 2 Pet. 3:18.

"Can anyone suppose that these peculiar forms have no special meaning? Is all this a mere play upon words; simply purposeless repetition? Remember, God by His Spirit is the real author of the inspired Word. "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." Is it not certain, then, as I have said, that these varying forms, so peculiar and striking, hide some spiritual mystery? And would it have not been more respectful to the Word if the translators of the common version (KJV) had rendered these expressions literally, even though they did not know what they meant, rather than to obscure the sense altogether with capricious renderings? These translators (of my precious KJV) have handled this word (aeon) apparently without any respect whatever to its real meaning. They have rendered its various combinations in thirteen ways, viz.; age, course, world, eternal, since the world began, from the beginning of the world, ever, forever, forever and ever, for evermore, while the world standeth, world without end, and with a negative, never. These are not translations but paraphrases, and look to me like 'handling the Word of God deceitfully,' albeit it may have been unintentional."

You say, "Incidentally, I'm a bit of a 'studier,'(sic) and for this reason, I like to use the King James Version, because for the study of Greek words it's simply easier to cross-reference the KJV with Strong's Concordance. "Anyway, in a matter of minutes I was stunned to discover that in Matthew 25:46, the words "everlasting" and "eternal" were the same Greek word, aionios, (Strong's #166), which means, "eternal, forever, everlasting, world."

First of all, I would have thought it very strange indeed if you had come to any other conclusion while using the very books that have been so instrumental in propagating the error of "eternal" torment. Secondly, Matthew 25:46 is not speaking of the judgment of individuals. It is speaking of the judgment of the nations. (See verse 32) Nowhere does the Lord allude to individuals, but always to nations. But even if it did refer to individuals, it doesn't stand up to the light of truth.

The Greek words for "everlasting punishment" are "chastening aeonian." "aeonios," which means "pertaining to the age". Our English word, "punishment," has been translated from the Greek word, "kolasis" which comes from the root word, "kolazo." "Kalazo" means, "to chastise, to punish." It is closely associated with the Greek word, "kalaphizo," which means, "to rap with the fist."

As to the possibility of the "everlasting punishment" of the wicked and the "eternal life" of the righteous being the same, it doesn't exist. The Greek word, "aeonian" simply means, "pertaining to the age". "Aeonian," being the adjective form of "aeon," is descriptive of both the kind of life of the righteous and the kind of punishment of the wicked. In the strictest sense, it really has no reference to time at all but to the quality of that life or punishment. Does that do away with eternal life for the redeemed? Not at all, for it is clearly taught by many other scriptures throughout the Bible, but "aeon/aeonios" does not describe the duration of that life. The word, "eternal," means, "without beginning or end," as we seem to use it. I'm not sure anyone really understands the term, and it is nowhere defined or alluded to in an unending sense in the entirety of the Bible. God is eternal, without beginning or end, even though He is also the God of the ages, for He is the Creator of time and of all the ages time consists of. The life for the age that the redeemed know is that quality of life of peace and joy that we now enjoy but in no way precludes or prevents our eventual entrance in to that life which is without beginning or end, which is God's. "To know Him is eternal life."

The statement, "Now, on this horizontal line within the two vertical lines is an aeon of time which can certainly be described as "eternal," eternal or perpetual (and complete) within its own context," makes no logical sense. There can be no perpetual (eternal) period of time. That would be like saying "The goodness of evil, the dryness of wet, the sweetness of bitter." They are contradictory and conflicting terms. To say that they mean the same is to destroy the meaning of both.

 

[Tavita]

Matthew 5 NIV

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Here we see a warning of condemnation in Hell.

1 John 4 NIV

7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[b] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Here it says God loves us so he sent his Son to atone for our sins. If hell is not a permanent place, why was he sacrificed?

Jude 1 NIV

3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.




It says yes the Good News is Salvation in Christ, yet it also clearly says the punishment of the ungodly is eternal fire. The only possible explanation is the lake of fire.

Revelation 20 NIV



11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.



It clearly says there are those who will be sent to the lake of fire. And if prior scripture is an indicator, their punishment is eternal. I know we all believe God to be a God of love, and he is. He is also a God of ultimate righteousness and justice. What justice is there in an empty sacrifice of his own Son? I say empty, because what you tell me, what you tell everyone on this board, is that hell is not an eternal event. And I cannot stress this enough, if there is no eternal punishment for inequity in sin, then why did Christ die on the cross for us? What atonement is there in such a thing? What does it all amount to then? Is that an act of Grace if there is no need for it? It becomes not an act of ultimate love and Grace, it becomes an act of futility in the light you cast on it. Why stress so direly the need to repent and have Faith in Christ? I do not like the idea of condemnation, but again I cannot stress enough, it is now I personally feel about it that determines if it is just! If God has decreed this, then there is nothing more to be said. If God's sacrifice in Christ is to have meaning, it must stand for that which is of the highest order of importance.


Have faith in Christ, or you will not see the Light of Heaven, but the fire of hell for you have not repented and you will be punished according to what God's law has established. The wage of sin is death, the price is paid only by Christ. There are those who will reject this, and because the wage is death, they must be destroyed by God's decree, and their ruin will be eternal. Reconciliation through hell fire is a lie. God has sent his Son for our atonement, and he has made the lake of fire for sin and the sinner who are unrepentant. I am no better than you, I am a sinner just the same but I have faith in Christ, and it is only by this I can be spared. There are no other roads to Him save the one who died on the Cross.

Anything else is a false doctrine, and I simply cannot believe such a thing. This is my last post in this thread. You can call me a coward for retreating, but honestly how much has been said here? How much have you given to support this other than symbolism which you a select group see? You say thousands have the same view as you. Yet how many millions have no Faith in Christ at all? I am thankful you believe in Christ! But to say hell is not the eternal doom which Christ says it is, what the prophets of the Lord say it is, that robs his sacrifice of meaning and purpose. It is all for naught, and God is not one for meaningless action.

I can see how confusing this whole subject is. It took me about six months to relearn and then accept this concept, and that was with an open mind seeking for answers. I don't think much has been written about the word 'everlasting' in this thread, so I'll give you a little run down on what I've learned about the English words everlasting, perpetual, and forever. Then I'll try and show you Christ's redemption and the year of Jubilee from the Law aside of the symbolism that has been used so far.

The Greek word used to show everlasting, perpetual and forever in English in the passages you have above..

As a noun.. Aion
As an Adjective... Aionios

Both mean an age, or age-time, the duration of which is indefinite and are used with those definitions in all other writings in Greek including Josephus, Philo, Plato, etc.

The above verses you gave..
Jude 1 NIV

3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

The word there is Aidios, which DOES mean eternal/everlasting.

7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

The word eternal there is Ainios, or age-during, age, age-time. It doesn't mean it goes on with no end.

Also, we can see that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, but are they still burning to this day? So it cannot possibly mean eternal as in what the English word means.

Matt 5:21.. in danger of the fire of hell. That just means the judgment of the Lake of Fire. There is nothing 'English' word - eternal, about it. Condemnation doesn't carry the meaning of eternally wiped out or tortured.

In regards to people being thrown into the Lake of Fire because their names weren't in the Book of Life... it's already been shown in other posts of Ben12 that the Lake of Fire means The Lake of Divine Purging.

I'm going to quit this post and do another on the law of redemption and year of jubilee in another post. It may take awhile..


Heh heh.. I see Ben has done a great post on the word eternal!!

 

[Tavita]

Those of you who want to believer there is no hell, and therefore no eternal punishment apart from God, so be it.

The Hebrew scholars, as many have pointed out, knew the truth that hell is real, and the final destination of those who fail to know Jesus in this life. The Bible teaches other than what you believe, no matter how many verses you post, misinterpret, and fail to grasp.

Why, IisJustMe?

What's wrong with objectively looking at the faith of others? Why do people get sooo upset about it?

You think it wipes out Christ's sacrifice don't you, just like everyone else. But I can tell you it is ALL ABOUT HIS SACRIFICE. If it wasn't for His sacrifice none of us would be here at all.

I'm sorry you feel that way, 'bro...

 

[RefrusRevlis]

The story of the Rich man and Lazarus, I do not believe is a parable, there is no subsequent explanation as is usually the case with parables. Also parables do not name particular people. Even if it is a parable, it does not change the fact that the passage teaches torment after death for the unrighteous. A parable uses truths from the natural world to illustrate a spiritual truth. A parable is not a fable.
Refrus