There is no Hell!

[SoundCard]

The same spiritual fire that refines our christian life now

Yeah, and that's fine. I agree. The Holy Spirit does indeed refine people, who have faith in Christ. Unbelievers, those who reject God, reject Christ. They don't have the Holy Spirit in them. So to say, the same fire purifies you and I, yes, we have Faith in Christ. But to say the same fire will purify those in Hell? I don't buy it. It doesn't sound scriptural to me, and quite frankly the Holy Spirit leads me to THAT conclusion.

 

[Ben12]

Give me the specific verse that says that non-believers will be purified and recieved into heaven after the Final Judgment. I'm just not seeing it. All I see is "death", "destroy", "blotted out", and "be remembered no more". You know, all those words for ceasing to be piled on in so many different ways must not obviously mean they will cease to be, eh? Oh wait! There IS no verse that says they will be purified : D (rather, that's exclusive to believers alone through Christ's blood and not punishment or a lake of fire; tough break). Nope, all the verses say destroy, and not destroy unrighteousness or destroy sins, but destroy the unrighteous and the sinner. Last time I checked, I didn't say "it's time to destroy the clothes" when I meant wash in the laundry... Hmmm... Nah, it obviously can't mean what it obviously says, nope. *sighs*

Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

I added the word remainder for a reason. Let me ask you have you ever heard of the T of D. If you have what does this verse mean? What is the T of D?

 

[SoundCard]

What matters is not the literal or spiritual; what matters is what God is saying. There are degrees of reality; anybody including me can drink milk; it’s the spiritual T Bone is where you got to have spiritual teeth to chew on. Most people are only mature in their religion; they may be 100 years old and that is all they know. I see you are not denying there are hidden truth? But let me ask you if God revealed a reality to you right NOW that did not fit your preconceived religious bias; what would you do?

I love the history of the Bible; I love its literal Word when it is appropriate.

We have just started this Forum I have plenty to say about the salvation of all men; I have given you a few samples already. God’s Word is more then rational; it is spiritual and I guarantee if I know anything is I will trust the spirit of truth within; before I will trust any man made religion.

Alright, I know this is a reply to Zero, forgive me, but HOW can you say that the literal or spiritual doesn't matter, only what God is saying? What if God is speaking literally, or speaking spiritually on a specific matter? How can you say the context doesn't matter in scripture?
Lamentations 4:3 NIV

3 Even jackals offer their breasts
to nurse their young,
but my people have become heartless
like ostriches in the desert.

Ok, so the literal or spiritual doesn't matter, therefore, the Israelites were turned into birds. That's absurd you say, it's clearly spiritual. But that's the point. You can't just say "Oh, it doesn't matter, so long as it's said." What good does that do anyone? Isn't learning if it's spiritual or literal part of these hidden mysteries you speak of? How can any of it be taken in a correct light if we disregard the manner in which it's displayed? How many problems have been caused because single verses were taken out of context?

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Hahaha! Yes, what matters is what God is saying. And what is God saying but the words in His book? Your belief flies in the face of countless scriptures from the Old to New Testaments. Isn't God's Word what He is saying? It seems from your middle comment that you don't believe the bible is the truth from which to judge all other thoughts, rhetorics, and beliefs from. How easily deceivable you are then!

If any revelation was given to me that was against the scripture flat out, then I would know it is of satan. Aren't we told to judge EVERYTHING by the scriptures? Well, aren't we? You talk in such a high and mighty fashion, as if you know something beyond even what God knows, since you know something beyond even His Word and scriptures. Oh, but do you not remember the very last verse in the bible? Oh, do you not remember what Daniel said about after the time of the Messiah that all revelations and prophesy would be sealed up and there would be no more, making Revelation the very last? God's word is all this is from then till Christ's return.

So yes, what IS God saying? What IS written in His word?

 

[spiritlead]

Give me the specific verse that says that non-believers will be purified and recieved into heaven after the Final Judgment. I'm just not seeing it. All I see is "death", "destroy", "blotted out", and "be remembered no more". You know, all those words for ceasing to be piled on in so many different ways must not obviously mean they will cease to be, eh? Oh wait! There IS no verse that says they will be purified : D (rather, that's exclusive to believers alone through Christ's blood and not punishment or a lake of fire; tough break). Nope, all the verses say destroy, and not destroy unrighteousness or destroy sins, but destroy the unrighteous and the sinner. Last time I checked, I didn't say "it's time to destroy the clothes" when I meant wash in the laundry... Hmmm... Nah, it obviously can't mean what it obviously says, nope. *sighs*

Do you beleive it will be literal fire that will barbecue all of unbeleiving mankind?

 

[Tavita]

Whoa there now. I haven't refuted him on anything? Have you even read a single one of my post? I mean, seriously. Have I not quoted scripture showing he's wrong? Have I not used logical reasoning showing he's wrong? Have I not used analogy, metaphors, literal examples showing he's wrong? What have I not done to show he's wrong? And can you refute a single argument of mine? Even he dodges many of my arguments because he cannot!

Whoa there now!

Peace bro'... yes you have given lots and lots of scriptures, it's just that those same scriptures are seen by many in a different light now. What you have given, as I said, is what the Church taught me (and you) and I've heard all of it so many times before. There is more to it than the surface reading of those verses. Get in and study the Greek and Hebrew meanings of words for 'yourself', and forget what the Church has taught you, because that's coming to the scriptures with pre-conceived ideas. (And forget Strong's.. that's all based on the KJV, which is based on the Latin Vulgate.. a translation for the early RCC).

I'm sorry, but all of what you say can be refuted. You have all bombarded Ben12 with so much that there's no way he could respond to all of it without writing pages and pages of responses. This subject is HUGE and takes a long time to digest.

If thousands of Christians are coming to believe what is against the scriptures, then we are heading into a very dark time. But isn't this prophesied to happen? Isn't it said that many would abandon the gospel for false doctrines and teachings before the last days?

Maybe the teaching of hell and damnation
brought in the Dark Ages. Most of the very early Church believed in salvation for all. btw.. the last days has covered the whole of the last 2000 years.

I speak only what the scriptures themselves actually say, actually in words state. If you think the scriptures are wrong, then there is nothing to say to you and there is no point in further discussion.

You need to do more in depth study of the scriptures, and not just take them on a surface reading. There are many depths to the scriptures, even Judaism teaches that.

 

[Ben12]

Hahaha! Yes, what matters is what God is saying. And what is God saying but the words in His book? Your belief flies in the face of countless scriptures from the Old to New Testaments. Isn't God's Word what He is saying? It seems from your middle comment that you don't believe the bible is the truth from which to judge all other thoughts, rhetorics, and beliefs from. How easily deceivable you are then!

If any revelation was given to me that was against the scripture flat out, then I would know it is of satan. Aren't we told to judge EVERYTHING by the scriptures? Well, aren't we? You talk in such a high and mighty fashion, as if you know something beyond even what God knows, since you know something beyond even His Word and scriptures. Oh, but do you not remember the very last verse in the bible? Oh, do you not remember what Daniel said about after the time of the Messiah that all revelations and prophesy would be sealed up and there would be no more, making Revelation the very last? God's word is all this is from then till Christ's return.

So yes, what IS God saying? What IS written in His word?

If I do not give scripture please correct me.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

I added the word remainder for a reason. Let me ask you have you ever heard of the T of D. If you have what does this verse mean? What is the T of D?

That is the House of the Lord David set up because he was forbidden to make a temple since he had spilled too much blood. Thus his son, Solomon, built a temple to God, and the tabernacle was no longer useful and removed.

But, let me point out, isn't this alluding to the millennial reign, which is BEFORE the final judgment, and while there are still humans mortally alive on this earth? There's 1000 years for Christ Himself to reach the unbelieving. After that, it's lights out, and that is made absolutely clear. See, you are picking and choosing your verses again; which you will accept as literal and which you'll deny and say you alone know what's true and the verse doesn't.

 

[IisJustMe]

The concept of Hell is part of the Pagan religion.

True, but it is also a literal bibilical fact.

In the K.J.V. of the Old Testament the Hebrew word sheol means "grave."

Also true, but to leave it at that misses the point. The grave is to bury the physically dead, which throughout the Old Testament is the depiction of the spiritually dead. There is no hope for one in the grave. But for those who know God, the grave is just storage for an empty shell.

Thats why in the N.I.V. you dont see the word Hell in the Old testament.

Irrelevant. As we've already clarified, "grave" means "dead" as in spiritually dead, or physically dead. And the NIV as well as every other modern translation quite clearly teaches the dead without Christ will be resurrected to judgment, and condemned to be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is also where Hell itself goes.

The reason you see the word Hell in the new testament, is because it was introduced into scripture by the Catholic Church.

As there were no Catholics on the NIV panel, this also is irrelevant, since they were working with original manuscripts without regard to what had been done previously.

Our bodies are mortal, and our spirits are mortal.

Wrong. Our spirits live on, either in condemnation or in peace with God through Christ. The Bible clearly teaches this throughout.

And where Jesus said: have you not heared, you are gods:///

I love it when people bring this passage up, as it is evident they/you do not understand that the Hebrew elohim also was translated "judges" depending upon the context, and in the KJV, the scholars missed the context. Unfortunately, it is an error that is repeated in many of the newer translations, but bad translation does not change the contextual background, which is to translate it "judges."

Also we must keep Gods commandments ...

Or what? By what I read, the grace of God covers our transgressions. Therefore, because I have been given so much through Christ without one single iota of deserving any of it, I will endeavor to live life by loving God and loving others, which is all the Law really says in the first place.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Whoa there now!

Peace bro'... yes you have given lots and lots of scriptures, it's just that those same scriptures are seen by many in a different light now. What you have given, as I said, is what the Church taught me (and you) and I've heard all of it so many times before. There is more to it than the surface reading of those verses. Get in and study the Greek and Hebrew meanings of words for 'yourself', and forget what the Church has taught you, because that's coming to the scriptures with pre-conceived ideas. (And forget Strong's.. that's all based on the KJV, which is based on the Latin Vulgate.. a translation for the early RCC).

I'm sorry, but all of what you say can be refuted. You have all bombarded Ben12 with so much that there's no way he could respond to all of it without writing pages and pages of responses. This subject is HUGE and takes a long time to digest.



Maybe the teaching of hell and damnation
brought in the Dark Ages. Most of the very early Church believed in salvation for all. btw.. the last days has covered the whole of the last 2000 years.



You need to do more in depth study of the scriptures, and not just take them on a surface reading. There are many depths to the scriptures, even Judaism teaches that.

I minored in ancient greek. I have the actual ancient greek new testament. Do you? Sorry, I speak not of what the church teaches, only what the scriptures teach. I read them myself and speak from them, not from what anyone else has said. If you'll notice, what I have been saying is supported directly by the scriptures, this other view is not. In fact, this other view directly defies many scriptures. Can you point out any that directly support this other view? That alone is right to make judgments from.

If I do not give scripture please correct me.

Oh, you've given scripture, but you have yet to give scripture which actually supports your reasoning. Many you have given disproves your reasoning. And you have yet to integrate it all together in a comprehensive, intelligent whole.

 

[Ben12]

That is the House of the Lord David set up because he was forbidden to make a temple since he had spilled too much blood. Thus his son, Solomon, built a temple to God, and the tabernacle was no longer useful and removed.

But, let me point out, isn't this alluding to the millennial reign, which is BEFORE the final judgment, and while there are still humans mortally alive on this earth? There's 1000 years for Christ Himself to reach the unbelieving. After that, it's lights out, and that is made absolutely clear. See, you are picking and choosing your verses again; which you will accept as literal and which you'll deny and say you alone know what's true and the verse doesn't.

Good anwser but here are a few verses you asked for.​

​

Acts 15:16 ​

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:​

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.​

18 ​

19 Acts 15: 16 (NAS) ​

'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'​

​

​

Acts 15: 16 (HCSB) ​

After these things I will return and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again,​

17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord—even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,​

18 which have been known from long ago.​

​

Acts 15 16 (NIRV) ​

" 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent.
I will rebuild what was destroyed. I will make it what it used to be.
17 Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.'​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

 

[spiritlead]

Whoa there now!

Peace bro'... yes you have given lots and lots of scriptures, it's just that those same scriptures are seen by many in a different light now. What you have given, as I said, is what the Church taught me (and you) and I've heard all of it so many times before. There is more to it than the surface reading of those verses. Get in and study the Greek and Hebrew meanings of words for 'yourself', and forget what the Church has taught you, because that's coming to the scriptures with pre-conceived ideas. (And forget Strong's.. that's all based on the KJV, which is based on the Latin Vulgate.. a translation for the early RCC).

I'm sorry, but all of what you say can be refuted. You have all bombarded Ben12 with so much that there's no way he could respond to all of it without writing pages and pages of responses. This subject is HUGE and takes a long time to digest.



Maybe the teaching of hell and damnation
brought in the Dark Ages. Most of the very early Church believed in salvation for all. btw.. the last days has covered the whole of the last 2000 years.



You need to do more in depth study of the scriptures, and not just take them on a surface reading. There are many depths to the scriptures, even Judaism teaches that.

Check out www.bible-truths.com L. Ray Smith' teaching on the lake of fire. Very thorough

 

[Ben12]

Take the Tabernacle of David; here was a small tent where the Ark of God was brought to Mount Zion/Sion; how many times is this name mentioned in the NT. Zion was mentioned 152 times in OT; where Sion was mention 7 times in NT; I do not understand why they changed the spelling. Sure this was David’s home Solomon etc; but is also a symbolism.

Zion was the natural home of King David who is a type of Christ in Natural Jerusalem. Mt Zion was the head of natural Kingdom; just as Spiritual Mt Zion is the Spiritual high place of Christ in the book of Revelation. David did not need to go to a priest; let alone a high priest to visit the Ark (or the glory of God) it was in a tent or tabernacle on his back porch at Mt Zion. This is a beautiful type which tells us myriads of what God is tying to tell us in the Spirit of the Word.

David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was one after God’s own heart. David lived in Jerusalem and Mount Zion (Sion); That is where the earthly anointed King lived and all His court; what a wonderful type of the ruler ship of the spiritual Mount Zion.

When David brought the Ark back to Mount Zion he wore an linen ephod, (In other word’s a priestly garment) David also offered burnt offerings to God as the High priest would on the Feast of Tabernacles. There was no high Priest, there was no Feast of Tabernacles once a year; but David was an example of both King and Priest in that the Ark was not at Shiloh but Zion. No outer court, no holy place, no Levitical order. It is no wonder the Bible is full of pages written by David because of the influence of God’s Ark at Zion.

2 Samuel 6:​

14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.​

17And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD​

​

There is so much more on this subject; using all the different examples and Temples/Tabernacles that point to the reality of God’s Spiritual Church today.

 

[spiritlead]

Yeah, and that's fine. I agree. The Holy Spirit does indeed refine people, who have faith in Christ. Unbelievers, those who reject God, reject Christ. They don't have the Holy Spirit in them. So to say, the same fire purifies you and I, yes, we have Faith in Christ. But to say the same fire will purify those in Hell? I don't buy it. It doesn't sound scriptural to me, and quite frankly the Holy Spirit leads me to THAT conclusion.

Do you think literal fire is going to barbecue all unbelieving mankind?

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Do you beleive it will be literal fire that will barbecue all of unbeleiving mankind?

The soul isn't physical, so a "fire" a consuming agent that destroys utterly what ever it burns from, would be of the same nature as a soul by definition, now wouldn't it? Realize, anything called fire DESTROYS whatever it consumes.

 

[Ben12]

1 Corin 10: 11​

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.​

The OT conceals Christ; the NT reveals Christ and Paul used OT verse so often in the NT as examples, in fact this reference can be found in Amos 11. Notice the verse above and as well as references and patterns or our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. I am not going to limit this awesome and deep reference to Acts 15 or to this limited time period and especially to the Jews. The reference is so pregnant below with reference to an age that far exceeds this limited chuch age we are experiencing now.

Amos 9:11​

In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. 13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.​

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Good anwser but here are a few verses you asked for.

Acts 15:16
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18
19 Acts 15: 16 (NAS)
'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'


Acts 15: 16 (HCSB)
After these things I will return and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again,
17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord—even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,
18 which have been known from long ago.

Acts 15 16 (NIRV)
" 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent.
I will rebuild what was destroyed. I will make it what it used to be.
17 Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.'







​

Did I not point out that this alludes to the millennial reign? Doesn't Christ return to set up His kingdom for 1000 years? Then, after that, isn't Satan released from the abyss for one final show down, and it is then that the old heavens and old earth pass away, the Final Judgment happens; death, hades, and the unbelievers are thrown in the lake of fire and utterly destroyed, called the second death? These verses do NOT support your view. They simply expand on what will be done when Christ returns, which is, again, before the Final Judgment.

 

[Ben12]

The soul isn't physical, so a "fire" a consuming agent that destroys utterly what ever it burns from, would be of the same nature as a soul by definition, now wouldn't it? Realize, anything called fire DESTROYS whatever it consumes.

​

Do you believe The Book of Revelations is literal or spiritual and if is literal where is your proof it is literal?

 

[Tavita]

I minored in ancient greek. I have the actual ancient greek new testament. Do you? Sorry, I speak not of what the church teaches, only what the scriptures teach. I read them myself and speak from them, not from what anyone else has said. If you'll notice, what I have been saying is supported directly by the scriptures, this other view is not. In fact, this other view directly defies many scriptures. Can you point out any that directly support this other view? That alone is right to make judgments from.

wow, I'm sorry, you're good at the Greek, huh? That's great, you have a good foundation.

Have you heard of the late William Barclay? He was a famous theologian, Greek scholar and translator, and, a universalist. Much of the early church believed in the salvation of all..

The Didascalia (the Catechetical school of Alexandria)
Pantaenus, first head of catechetical school at Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria, second head of catechetical school at Alexandria
Origen, greatest scholar of the early church
Athenasius, Archbishop of Alexandria
Didymus
Ambrose, Bishop
Ephraim
Chrysostum
Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop
Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop and President of the second Church council
Titus, Bishop of Bostra

These a just a few until Tertillian and Augustine came along. This is not just a new, end of days teaching.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

1 Corin 10: 11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.​

The OT conceals Christ; the NT reveals Christ and Paul used OT verse so often in the NT as examples, in fact this reference can be found in Amos 11. Notice the verse above and as well as references and patterns or our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. I am not going to limit this awesome and deep reference to Acts 15 or to this limited time period and especially to the Jews. The reference is so pregnant below with reference to an age that far exceeds this limited chuch age we are experiencing now.

Amos 9:11
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. 13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.​

": 12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name," Heathen called by His name. That would be us. What of those who are not called by His name? Again, we have a qualifier here instead of an all inclusive "everyone" or "all mankind" or something. Instead we have a limiter, and, again, this is the 1000 year reign, during which if someone dies at the age of 100 they will be considered a mere youth, a child. It will be absolutely amazing, and yet nothing compared to the new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem which come after the Final Judgment.