There is no hell. (2)

[agape101]

The scripture you are referring to does say "the wages of sin is death" but it does not say "(not hell)!" That is opinion, commentary!

And while it is true that the wages of sin is death, scripture also says "It is appointed unto men once to die after that the judgment."

My interlinear Greek text does not have the word "hell" anywhere in it.... why?

 

[Der Alte]

The scripture you are referring to does say "the wages of sin is death" but it does not say "(not hell)!" That is opinion, commentary!

And while it is true that the wages of sin is death, scripture also says "It is appointed unto men once to die after that the judgment."

My interlinear Greek text does not have the word "hell" anywhere in it.... why?

Since I did not mention "hell" except to quote someone else's post, what is your point? But since you brought it up let's look at the definition of the words translated "hell" in the NT, Hades and Gehenna, from the Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker lexicon of NT Greek.

αδης, [Hades] ou, oJ ( w. var. spellings Hom. +; inscr. ; PGM 1, 345; 12, 241; LXX , Philo ; Jos. , Ant. 6, 332; Test. 12 Patr. ; Sib. Or. ).

1. Hades ( orig. proper noun, name of god of the underworld), the underworld as the place of the dead Ac 2:27 , 31 (Ps 15:10 ; Eccl 9:10 ; PGM 1, 179; 16, 8; Philo , Mos. 1, 195; Jos. , Bell. 1, 596, Ant. 6, 332). In the depths, contrasted w. heaven Mt 11:23 ; Lk 10:15 ( cf. Is 14:11 , 15 ); 16:23 . Accessible by gates (but the pl. is also used [ e.g. Hom ., X. , Ael. Aristid. 47, 20 K.=23 p. 450 D.] when only one gate is meant), hence puvlai a{/dou (since Il. 5, 646; Is 38:10 ; Wsd 16:13 ; 3 Macc 5:51 ; PsSol 16, 2.— Lucian , Menipp. 6 the magicians can open tou` {Aidou ta;" puvla" and conduct people in and out safely) Mt 16:18 ( s. on pevtra 1b and puvlh 1); locked e[cw ta;" klei`" tou` qanavtou kai; tou` a{/dou Rv 1:18 (the genitives are either obj. [ Ps.-Apollod. 3, 12, 6, 10 Aeacus, the son of Zeus holds the klei`" tou`{Aidou ; Suppl. Epigr. Gr. VIII 574, 3 [III AD ] tw`/ ta;" klei`da" e[conti tw`n kaqÆ {Aidou ] or poss. ; in the latter case death and Hades are personif. ; s. 2). wjdi`ne" tou` a{/dou (Ps 17:6 ) Pol 1:2 ( cf. Ac 2:24 , where D, Latins, Pesh. also read a{/dou for qanavtou). eij" a{/dou ( sc. dovmou", Hom .+; Bar 3:11 , 19 ; Tob 3:10 ) Ac 2:31 v.l .; 1 Cl 4:12; 51:4 ( Iambl. , Vi. Pyth. 30, 179 ejn a{/dou kei`sqai th;n krivsin ; Hierocles 14 p. 451 ta; ejn a{/dou kolasthvria ; Simplicius in Epict. p. 108, 14 punishments for sinners ejn a{/dou).

2. personif ., w. qavnato" ( cf. Is 28:15 ; Job 38:17 ) Rv 6:8 ; 20:13 f ; 1 Cor 15:55 v.l .—GBeer, D. bibl. Hades: HJHoltzmann Festschr. ’02, 1-30; (Stade-) ABertholet, Bibl. Theol. II ’11, 397 f ; ERohde, Psyche

4 I 54 ff ; 309 ff ; ADieterich, Nekyia 1893; Bousset, Rel. 3 285 f ; 293 ff ; Billerb. IV 1016-29; JoachJeremias, TW I 146-50; AHeidel, The Gilgamesh Epic and OT Parallels 2, ’49, 173-91; LESullivan, Theological Studies (Woodstock, Md.) 10, ’49, 62 ff. S. also s.v. pneu`ma 2 and 4c. M-M. B. 1485.*

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker

γεενα [Gehenna], h", hJ Gehenna, Grecized fr. µr,NÏhi ( a ) yG« (Josh 15:8 b; 18:16 b; Neh 11:30 ) Targum µn:hiygI ( cf. Dalman, Gramm. 2 183), really µr,NÏhiA÷b, ( a ) yG« (Josh 15:8 a; 18:16 a; 2 Ch 28:3 ; Jer 7:32 ; cf. 2 Kings 23:10 , where the K’thibh has the pl. : sons of H.) Valley of the Sons of Hinnom , a ravine south of Jerusalem. There, acc. to later Jewish popular belief, the Last Judgment was to take place. In the gospels it is the place of punishment in the next life, hell: krivsi" th`" g. condemnation to G. Mt 23:33 . bavllesqai (eij") (th;n) g. ( cf. Sib. Or. 2, 291) 5:29 ; 18:9 ; Mk 9:45 , 47 ; ejmbalei`n eij" th;n g. Lk 12:5 ; ajpelqei`n eij" (th;n) g. Mt 5:30 ; Mk 9:43 ; ajpolevsai ejn g. Mt 10:28 ; uiJo;" g. a son of hell 23:15 (Semitism, cf. uiJo;" 1cd; Bab. Rosh ha-Shana 17b µnhyg ynb . Cf. the oracle Hdt. 6, 86, 3: the perjurer is }Orkou pavi>"). e[nocon ei\nai eij" th;n g. ( sc. blhqh`nai ) 5:22 . As a place of fire g. (tou`) purov" ( PGM 4, 3072 gevnna purov" ; Sib. Or. 1, 103) hell of fire Mt 5:22 ; 18:9 ; 2 Cl 5:4. Fig. flogizomevnh uJpo; th`" g. set on fire by hell Js 3:6 .—GDalman, RE VI 418 ff ; PVolz, Eschatol. d. jüd. Gem.’34, 327 ff ; GBeer, D. bibl. Hades: HHoltzmann—Festschr, ’02, 1-29; Billerb. IV ’28, 1029-1118. M-M. B. 1485.*

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

 

[Der Alte]

Why do we care what the Jewish or Christian orthodoxy holds to be true? Who had Jesus killed? Why do i care what jewish scholars interpret? I don't care. they got it wrong with Jesus and they had him killed. And Christian orthodoxy is no better. Just traditions of men.... I don't think they have bad intent, just think the pool is tainted from the get go when it comes to man's involvement.

what happens when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire?

That is basically the attitude of all false unscriptural religious groups which came into existence in the late 19th century or later; JW, LDS, SDA, UPCI, UU, OP, pre-'89 WWCG, anti-trin MJ, kristadelfian, and splinter groups from them. Why should I care what you "think" you have NOT provided any evidence for anything?

You are correct the Jewish leaders got many things wrong but Jesus told the people to do what they said but not what they did! So if you want to discuss their errors, back it up with scripture NOT vague assertions!

Why should we care what the Jewish leaders at the time of Jesus thought about the place of eternal punishment for sinners? Because Jesus and his disciples were taught by those leaders and neither Jesus nor his disciples ever contradicted their beliefs in hell! Instead the teaching of Jesus supported those beliefs.

Also the aforementioned false religious groups claim that "hell" is supposedly a pagan concept adopted by the early Christians! I have presented irrefutable historical evidence that is not true, the Jews believed in hell based on scripture. All this can be found in the posts you ignored!

 

[Der Alte]

I looked up "judgment" in the dictionary and I couldn't find where it says: Judgment = unending torture...

The wages of sin is death. . . but it does not end there because death is followed by judgment, and judgment is followed by reward or punishment. Note the scripture does NOT say the wages of sin is two deaths!

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

 

[Timothew]

Revelation 2:11
‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

Can we say from this that he who does not overcome will be hurt by the second death?

 

[Mikecpking]

The wages of sin is death. . . but it does not end there because death is followed by judgment, and judgment is followed by reward or punishment. Note the scripture does NOT say the wages of sin is two deaths!

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

The Wages of sin is death is a reference to the second death.

 

[Gary51]

The wages of sin is death. . . but it does not end there because death is followed by judgment, and judgment is followed by reward or punishment. Note the scripture does NOT say the wages of sin is two deaths!

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Eternal punishment is eternal death. It is not eternal punishing! The punishment is eternal death, not eternal suffering.

 

[Der Alte]

The wages of sin is death. . . but it does not end there because death is followed by judgment, and judgment is followed by reward or punishment. Note the scripture does NOT say the wages of sin is two deaths!

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!http://www.christianforums.com/t7478690/#post55092356http://www.christianforums.com/t7478690/#post55092356

The Wages of sin is death is a reference to the second death.

Prove that from scripture? I won't hold my breath!

 

[Der Alte]

The wages of sin is death. . . but it does not end there because death is followed by judgment, and judgment is followed by reward or punishment. Note the scripture does NOT say the wages of sin is two deaths!

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!http://www.christianforums.com/t7478690/#post55092356http://www.christianforums.com/t7478690/#post55092356

Eternal punishment is eternal death. It is not eternal punishing! The punishment is eternal death, not eternal suffering.

You are making a false distinction that does NOT exist in English or Greek! Jesus says what he means and means what he says! Punishment is punishment and death is death! The reward for the righteous must end at some point because the Bible says "Eternal Life" NOT "Eternal Living!"

 

[Gary51]

The reward for the righteous must end at some point because the Bible says "Eternal Life" NOT "Eternal Living!"

Eternal life = eternal living.... One cannot have life unless one is living. Therefore the reward has no end!

Eternal death = eternal death. God will never resurrect them again.Therefore the punishment has no end!

 

[Der Alte]

Eternal life = eternal living.... One cannot have life unless one is living. Therefore the reward has no end!

Equivocation! If eternal life = eternal living then eternal punishment must equal eternal punishing!

Eternal death = eternal death. God will never resurrect them again.Therefore the punishment has no end!

Circular argument! The Bible NEVER states "eternal death!" The phrase is "eternal punishment." Jesus said what he meant and meant what the said. If Jesus had intended to say "eternal death" that is what he would have said!

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

 

[Mikecpking]

Equivocation! If eternal life = eternal living then eternal punishment must equal eternal punishing!



Circular argument! The Bible NEVER states "eternal death!" The phrase is "eternal punishment." Jesus said what he meant and meant what the said. If Jesus had intended to say "eternal death" that is what he would have said!

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
​

9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
​

What about the talking trees in Isiah 14:8? Are they literal too?

 

[Timothew]

What about the talking trees in Isiah 14:8? Are they literal too?

 

[OldShepherd]

Equivocation! If eternal life = eternal living then eternal punishment must equal eternal punishing!

Circular argument! The Bible NEVER states "eternal death!" The phrase is "eternal punishment." Jesus said what he meant and meant what the said. If Jesus had intended to say "eternal death" that is what he would have said!

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

What about the talking trees in Isiah 14:8? Are they literal too?

Do you think this is some kind of clever comment? Did the king of Babylon, vs. 4, actually die, was buried, and covered with worms, vss. 9, 11,or is this only a figure of speech? There is no simliar figure of speech in Ezek 32, you can't tap dance around it so easy. So you just ignore it!

We know that the trees talking is a figure of speech but we have no such knowledge of what happens after death! Also this irrelevant witticism does NOT even attempt to explain why God would use figurative language about the dead in Sheol moving, speaking, etc! FYI the Jews understood Isaiah 14:9 to be literal.

Isa 14:9 Hell [שאול/Sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.​

The fact that Jesus sometimes used figures of speech does NOT make everything he said figurative! For example, Herod was not literally a fox. Simon was not literally a stone. James and John were not literally the sons of thunder, but they all did exist!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Isa 14:9 Hell [שאול/Sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

this sounds like this

Revelation 20

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(hmm .. this is an intriguing thread to have in GT .. lol)

 

[Gary51]

Equivocation! If eternal life = eternal living then eternal punishment must equal eternal punishing!

I can understand how you see it.... After all, you seem to prefer enternal arguing, than end a lost argument!

 

[Der Alte]

I can understand how you see it.... After all, you seem to prefer enternal arguing, than end a lost argument!

Someone saying essentially "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" does not end an argument.

When Jesus said,

• "You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.", Matt 5:22
• "thy whole body should be cast into hell," Matt 5:29,
• "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matt 13:49,
• "cast into everlasting fire," Matt 18:8,
• "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," Matt 22:2
• "twofold more the child of hell than yourselves," Matt 23:13
• "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire," Matt 25:41, 46
• "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" Mar 9:43 - 48, (3X)
• "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," Luk 13;28,
• "in hell [ . . . ] tormented in this flame . . . place of torment." Luke 16:19-31
• "cast them into the fire, and they are burned," John 15:6

the Jews understood him to be talking about Gehenna/Hades a place prepared by God for the eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous! See historical evidence in posts linked below.

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud, the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel, at the time of Jesus, teaching on eternal, fiery punishment for the unrighteous. Click Link!

 

[plmarquette]

hell - hades - ghenna....
sons of Korah swallowed up
Lazarus and rich man
Lazarus the friend of Jesus
he that ascended, first descended

1. Exodus 15:12
   Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
   Exodus 15:11-13 (in Context) Exodus 15 (Whole Chapter)
   1. Numbers 16:33
      They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
      Numbers 16:32-34 (in Context) Numbers 16 (Whole Chapter)
   2. Revelation 19:20
      And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
      Revelation 19:19-21 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter)

 

[Gary51]

Someone saying essentially "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" does not end an argument.

And so continues your arguing!

 

[Timothew]

hell - hades - ghenna....
sons of Korah swallowed up
Lazarus and rich man
Lazarus the friend of Jesus



he that ascended, first descended

1. Exodus 15:12
   Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
   
   
   
   Exodus 15:11-13 (in Context) Exodus 15 (Whole Chapter)
   1. Numbers 16:33
      They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
      Numbers 16:32-34 (in Context) Numbers 16 (Whole Chapter)
   2. Revelation 19:20
      And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
      Revelation 19:19-21 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter)

It is astonishing that it is so hard for people to see what is written. The doctrine of eternal torment is so ingrained that the eyes pass right over the words. Look at Number 16:33 again:

So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

I bolded the part that I really want you to see, and they perished.

They perished.