There is no hell. (2)

[Gary51]

It is astonishing that it is so hard for people to see what is written.

They see what they want to see, not what is really there!

 

[Der Alte]

It is astonishing that it is so hard for people to see what is written. The doctrine of eternal torment is so ingrained that the eyes pass right over the words. Look at Number 16:33 again:

So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

I bolded the part that I really want you to see, and they perished.

They perished.

Yes it is so hard for people to see what is written! You criticize someone else then do exactly what you accuse them of!

Does the passage you alluded to say "they perished", as you said twice, as if the people ceased to exist? Or does the passage say "they perished from the midst of the assembly?" The words "from the midst of the assembly" indicates not that they ceased to exist but they were no longer among the assembly! Here is the word translated "perished!" Note the highlighted meanings!

H6 אבד 'âbad
BDB Definition:
1) perish, vanish, go astray, be destroyed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) perish, die, be exterminated
1a2) perish, vanish (figuratively)
1a3) be lost, strayed
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to destroy, kill, cause to perish, to give up
1b2) to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish, (figuratively)
1b3) cause to stray, lose
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to destroy, put to death
1c1a) of divine judgment
1c2) object name of kings (figuratively)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2​

​

 

[Timothew]

Yes it is so hard for people to see what is written! You criticize someone else then do exactly what you accuse them of!

Does the passage you alluded to say "they perished", as you said twice, as if the people ceased to exist? Or does the passage say "they perished from the midst of the assembly?" The words "from the midst of the assembly" indicates not that they ceased to exist but they were no longer among the assembly! Here is the word translated "perished!" Note the highlighted meanings!

H6 אבד 'âbad
​

BDB Definition:
1) perish, vanish, go astray, be destroyed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) perish, die, be exterminated
1a2) perish, vanish (figuratively)
1a3) be lost, strayed
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to destroy, kill, cause to perish, to give up
1b2) to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish, (figuratively)
1b3) cause to stray, lose
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to destroy, put to death
1c1a) of divine judgment
1c2) object name of kings (figuratively)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2
​

If that's true, I'll have to take your word for it, I don't read Hebrew.
The english translation said perish, so I did. I noticed that one of the definitions in your group includes "be destroyed."

Why does the translation say "perish"?

Editted to add:
Note the unhighlighted meanings!

 

[Der Alte]

If that's true, I'll have to take your word for it, I don't read Hebrew.
The english translation said perish, so I did. I noticed that one of the definitions in your group includes "be destroyed."

Why does the translation say "perish"?

What I say is amazingly easy to verify, google on interlinear Hebrew Old Testament. Yes, one of the definitions is destroy, but it has a wider range of meaning and we cannot assume it means destroy in every case, especially when it is qualified as it is in Num16:33.

CEV Num 16:32 and swallowed them alive, together with their families and everything they owned. Then the ground closed back up, and they were gone.
Num 16:33 (SEE 16:32)

NIV Num 16:33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.
​

 

[Mikecpking]

What I say is amazingly easy to verify, google on interlinear Hebrew Old Testament. Yes, one of the definitions is destroy, but it has a wider range of meaning and we cannot assume it means destroy in every case, especially when it is qualified as it is in Num16:33.

CEV Num 16:32 and swallowed them alive, together with their families and everything they owned. Then the ground closed back up, and they were gone.
​

Num 16:33 (SEE 16:32)

NIV Num 16:33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.
​

this case is different to 'destroy' as in the lake of fire. They are going down straight to Sheol (grave) and died. After the resurrection on the last day, then the unsaved would be thrown into the lake of fire to be destroyed.

 

[Timothew]

What I say is amazingly easy to verify, google on interlinear Hebrew Old Testament. Yes, one of the definitions is destroy, but it has a wider range of meaning and we cannot assume it means destroy in every case, especially when it is qualified as it is in Num16:33.

CEV Num 16:32 and swallowed them alive, together with their families and everything they owned. Then the ground closed back up, and they were gone.
​

Num 16:33 (SEE 16:32)

NIV Num 16:33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.
​

I did and the first definition was perish. I really am not trying to mislead anyone. Neither do I wish to be misled by anyone. PLMarquette seemed to be indicating that these people were alive in Sheol. We can certainly agree that is not the case.

 

[Der Alte]

this case is different to 'destroy' as in the lake of fire. They are going down straight to Sheol (grave) and died. After the resurrection on the last day, then the unsaved would be thrown into the lake of fire to be destroyed.

It is only your assumption that those who were swallowed alive by the earth, died!

There is no scripture which identifies the lake of fire as Gehenna or states that anyone is destroyed in it. Rev 20:14 says that the angel of death and the demon of hell were thrown into the LOF and it says that this, being thrown in, is the second death.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.​

The first death does not result it annihilation and it is not permanent. Nothing says the second death is either! What happens in the LOF?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

 

[Der Alte]

I did and the first definition was perish. I really am not trying to mislead anyone. Neither do I wish to be misled by anyone. PLMarquette seemed to be indicating that these people were alive in Sheol. We can certainly agree that is not the case.

No we cannot agree with your assumption. Scripture indicates some kind of conscious awareness in Sheol. And before you even go there the figurative reference to talking trees does NOT prove that anything else in the chapter is figurative. The king of Babylon was an actual person, he literally died, was literally buried, and was at some point literally covered with worms. God himself speaking indicates movement, speech and conscious awareness in Sheol.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

 

[Timothew]

I still think the references in Isaiah and Ezekiel to dead people walking are talking are not meant to be taken literally. I can't prove this any more than you can prove that they are literal. However I can say that I have never seen a dead person walk or heard them talk. That coupled with the fact that we know Isaiah and Ezekiel sometimes use figurative language should be enough to convince an objective observer that dead people aren't conscious in the Sheol.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I still think the references in Isaiah and Ezekiel to dead people walking are talking are not meant to be taken literally. I can't prove this any more than you can prove that they are literal. However I can say that I have never seen a dead person walk or heard them talk. That coupled with the fact that we know Isaiah and Ezekiel sometimes use figurative language should be enough to convince an objective observer that dead people aren't conscious in the Sheol.

Heres one

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Heres another...

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

These, I wouldnt think are carnally dead (as in the body without the Spirit) type of dead, but perhaps spritually dead (since they are either living in pleasure or as dead burrying their dead).

Then here is interesting...

Prov 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

The above in light of proverbs 9:16-18 too... speaking of congregations...

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Dead could be in a figurative sense (in that the body itself is alive) but dead spiritually (in that sense). Though... I dont know if its right to say being dead "is figurative" just because it might be spiritually true (verses carnally true). I guess because its no less true but its "the sense" in which its speaking might be different.

Gees, did I put that right?

 

[Der Alte]

I still think the references in Isaiah and Ezekiel to dead people walking are talking are not meant to be taken literally. I can't prove this any more than you can prove that they are literal. However I can say that I have never seen a dead person walk or heard them talk. That coupled with the fact that we know Isaiah and Ezekiel sometimes use figurative language should be enough to convince an objective observer that dead people aren't conscious in the Sheol.

Right, that is what you think! You say you have never seen a dead person walk or heard them talk? How many times have you been in Sheol or Hades? Here is what I think, "If the plain sense (of scripture) makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." I also think that God and Jesus say what they mean and mean what they say unless they clearly state otherwise. And I have shown that the ancient Jews understood Isaiah 14:9, 10 to be literal.

 

[Timothew]

Right, that is what you think! You say you have never seen a dead person walk or heard them talk? How many times have you been in Sheol or Hades? Here is what I think, "If the plain sense (of scripture) makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." I also think that God and Jesus say what they mean and mean what they say unless they clearly state otherwise. And I have shown that the ancient Jews understood Isaiah 14:9, 10 to be literal.

It is not a requirement for a prophet to state "I'm speaking figuratively now," and if it is required that a prophet clearly state when he goes into metaphor, Why didn't Isaiah say "Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon exult over you and figuratively say..."

However, Isaiah does say in verse 4 that this is a taunt.
He didn't say, this is all to be taken literal except for that part about the talking trees.

 

[Timothew]

Heres one

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Heres another...

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

These, I wouldnt think are carnally dead (as in the body without the Spirit) type of dead, but perhaps spritually dead (since they are either living in pleasure or as dead burrying their dead).

Then here is interesting...

Prov 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

The above in light of proverbs 9:16-18 too... speaking of congregations...

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Dead could be in a figurative sense (in that the body itself is alive) but dead spiritually (in that sense). Though... I dont know if its right to say being dead "is figurative" just because it might be spiritually true (verses carnally true). I guess because its no less true but its "the sense" in which its speaking might be different.

Gees, did I put that right?

Do you think these passages are meant to be taken literally?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Do you think these passages are meant to be taken literally?

Depends on what you mean, if you think I believe in walking zombies (in the sci-fi sense) of the walking dead, then no. But if one is dead while one lives, clearly they are not physically dead (in the carnal sense, ie the body is alive). But do I believe they are dead (after a spiritual truth)? Yes, unless Paul is lying when he says she who lives for pleasure is dead (while she lives)..Otherwise I might have to scratch it out of the scriptures. Its obvious one living for pleasure is not carnally dead, the other option is that shes not spiritually alive and settle for understanding this as meaning "spiritually dead"... make sense?

Dead is dead, whether "spiritually so" or "carnally so".

So wouldnt that be "literally so" in one of those two senses?

 

[LutheranMafia]

11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

-1 Samuel 28

 

[Jpark]

Anyone got a explanation for Matt. 22:31-33 in which Jesus revealed that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive? God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead. God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Therefore, they are presently alive.

What about Matt. 18:34-35?

And concerning 1 Samuel 28, that was Samuel speaking from heaven.

 

[LutheranMafia]

And concerning 1 Samuel 28, that was Samuel speaking from heaven.

No, it says he rose up from the ground. There is no Heaven in the Old Testament, only Sheol.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yeah, you have Samuel who died and was consulted through a witch who come up from the ground (but not down from heaven). You have Elijah who never saw death and was taken up into heaven in a whirlwind. You have Jesus who come from above, took the form of a man, lived and died and resurrected and ascended to heaven

 

[Timothew]

Depends on what you mean, if you think I believe in walking zombies (in the sci-fi sense) of the walking dead, then no. But if one is dead while one lives, clearly they are not physically dead (in the carnal sense, ie the body is alive). But do I believe they are dead (after a spiritual truth)? Yes, unless Paul is lying when he says she who lives for pleasure is dead (while she lives)..Otherwise I might have to scratch it out of the scriptures. Its obvious one living for pleasure is not carnally dead, the other option is that shes not spiritually alive and settle for understanding this as meaning "spiritually dead"... make sense?

Dead is dead, whether "spiritually so" or "carnally so".

So wouldnt that be "literally so" in one of those two senses?

I guess I was asking "physically so." I'm glad to hear that it's not a "night of the living dead" type situation.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I guess I was asking "physically so." I'm glad to hear that it's not a "night of the living dead" type situation.

Glad to know your not into sci fi answers lol

Which verse though? The woman who lives for pleasure being dead while she lives? I think she physically lives but is spiritually dead. Or the dead burrying their dead? That one appears to include both the spiritually dead and the physically dead. Then the congregation of the dead, that would seem very much to be speaking of the spiritually dead if one without understanding would remain there... that in conjuction with "thou hast a name that thou livest and art dead" along with the one who calls to the simple (or he that "wanteth understanding") not knowing the dead are "there". At first glance thats pretty much how I would grasp it. I mean certainly theres things I question, not too sure, but keep in the back of my mind and wait on the Lord about it (like everyone else) so I wouldnt say take my word for it or anything, just seems to fit (to me). Still more I dont know then I do, theres some real stumpers in there and it doesnt always work (for me) to say this is the case everytime.

At least we know theres no zombies, that would be freaky...