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There is no hell. (2)

Mikecpking

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Maybe you should specify which dead people you are talking about, because I don't see Christians listed in scripture as having any part of this.

There seems to be a confusion.

Try John 5:28 ,29

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned

The whole of 1 corinthians 15.

This is for all the dead. The key verse is in Daniel 12:2


Daniel 12:2 (New International Version, ©2010)

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.




This video may help. But death is not non existence like the Jehovah Witnesses state. Its just that the biblical truth of death and resurrection needs carefully looking at.

Here is something I found on youtube which clarifies many points.

YouTube - State of the Dead - First response to OneTrueChurch (2A)
 
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ARBITER01

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This is for all the dead.

That's what I thought.

This is what happens when a person uses OT stuff and ultimately gets so involved with it they eventually seek to override NT doctrine with it,..

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if to live in the flesh,––if this is the fruit of my work, then what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 But I am in a strait betwixt the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ; for it is very far better:
Php 1:24 yet to abide in the flesh is more needful for your sake.
There is no in between place for born again obediant Christians, it is straight to heaven upon death, nor is the great white throne of judgment for us either, as we see a 2nd witness to this also,..

Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow–servants also and their brethren, which should be killed even as they were, should be fulfilled.

These are Christians up in heaven, not some place else.
 
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Mikecpking

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That's what I thought.

This is what happens when a person uses OT stuff and ultimately gets so involved with it they eventually seek to override NT doctrine with it,..

There is no in between place for born again obediant Christians, it is straight to heaven upon death, nor is the great white throne of judgment for us either, as we see a 2nd witness to this also,..



These are Christians up in heaven, not some place else.

This is not strictly true. Ultimately our destination is heaven, but there has not been a resurrection yet and Jesus has not come back.
Paul's desire to be with Christ means once he has died, his next waking moment is the resurrection on the last day and he will be with Christ.

The 'soul's under the alter' is figurative and can be compared to Gen 4:10 where Abel's blood is crying from the ground for vengence. This is not literal.

The promise of Jesus is to raise us up at the last day:

  1. John 6:39
    And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
    John 6:38-40 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  2. John 6:40
    For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
    John 6:39-41 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  3. John 6:44
    “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
    John 6:43-45 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  4. John 6:54
    Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
    John 6:53-55 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  5. John 11:24
    Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Check these verses out too:

John 3:13
Acts 2:29-34

Did you look at the youtube video?
 
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ARBITER01

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This is not strictly true. Ultimately our destination is heaven, but there has not been a resurrection yet and Jesus has not come back.
Paul's desire to be with Christ means once he has died, his next waking moment is the resurrection on the last day and he will be with Christ.

The 'soul's under the alter' is figurative and can be compared to Gen 4:10 where Abel's blood is crying from the ground for vengence. This is not literal.

The promise of Jesus is to raise us up at the last day:

  1. John 6:39
    And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
    John 6:38-40 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  2. John 6:40
    For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day
    John 6:39-41 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  3. John 6:44
    “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
    John 6:43-45 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  4. John 6:54
    Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
    John 6:53-55 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  5. John 11:24
    Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day
Check these verses out too:

John 3:13
Acts 2:29-34

Did you look at the youtube video?

Sorry, you are not winning any converts here friend, Paul makes no mention of him having to go to some sheol as a Christian before reaching heaven, nor does any of his NT doctrine affirm such a position as you are promoting.

We really have nothing to talk about as I consider this heresy.
 
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Mikecpking

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Sorry, you are not winning any converts here friend, Paul makes no mention of him having to go to some sheol as a Christian before reaching heaven, nor does any of his NT doctrine affirm such a position as you are promoting.

We really have nothing to talk about as I consider this heresy.


So why does Jesus mention hades (sheol) in John 5:28 as the place where peolple get resurrected from and Peter states that Jesus was not left in Hades and was resurrected later.
Sheol/Hades is the place all the dead go. You will find that the belief in the immortality of the soul came from pagan Greek philosophy that polluted Jewish thought and is not biblical.
 
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Mikecpking

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Sorry, you are not winning any converts here friend, Paul makes no mention of him having to go to some sheol as a Christian before reaching heaven, nor does any of his NT doctrine affirm such a position as you are promoting.

We really have nothing to talk about as I consider this heresy.

These are Jesus' own words

  1. John 6:39
    And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
    John 6:38-40 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  2. John 6:40
    For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
    John 6:39-41 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  3. John 6:44
    “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
    John 6:43-45 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  4. John 6:54
    Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
    John 6:53-55 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
  5. John 11:24
    Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day



And here are paul's in 1 Corinthinans 15:

The Resurrection of the Dead

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”[d]
33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”[e] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame. The Resurrection Body

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[i] 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul made no mistake when he defended tghe truth of the resurrection of the dead. He speaks here about the dead being raised up. Not comng down again from Heaven!!
I find it hard to believe people take 2 or 3 verses out of context and use those verses against other scripture rather than harmonising them to get a distorted view. Of course Paul would rather be with Christ, his next waking moment will be with Jesus on the last day after Christ has raised him up!
So far, you have not explained Christ's own words and here, Paul is in agreement taht the dead are raised up at the trumpet call on the last day.
 
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Timothew

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We really have nothing to talk about as I consider this heresy.

Hi Mikecpking!

We have a small group on Christian Forums, but it is quickly growing. It is for people who have been called heretics by other CF members. With Arbiter01's post you are now qualified to join up. Congratulations on this acheivement and welcome!

Here is a link. http://www.christianforums.com/groups/351/

Tim
Happy Heretic
 
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ARBITER01

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So why does Jesus mention hades (sheol) in John 5:28 as the place where peolple get resurrected from and Peter states that Jesus was not left in Hades and was resurrected later.
Sheol/Hades is the place all the dead go. You will find that the belief in the immortality of the soul came from pagan Greek philosophy that polluted Jewish thought and is not biblical.

Sorry friend, you are denying heaven as the reward, and I just don't have much time for every person with oddball thinking on here, I'm more interested in drawing close to GOD.
 
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Mikecpking

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Sorry friend, you are denying heaven as the reward, and I just don't have much time for every person with oddball thinking on here, I'm more interested in drawing close to GOD.

Our reward is set out in the last book of Revelations. There is no dispute about that. The only question is whether it is after the resurrection or before. My question to you is what is the point of a resurrection if we go to heaven immediately upon death? My view is time is meaningless and to the believer, would seem instantaneous to the last day and be resurrected with everyone else there. But from the perspective from people alive on earth, they would still be in the grave or "asleep in the dust of the earth" in sheol/Hades.
 
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sb81

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Howdy, I became interested in this question after I realized there is no real mention/definition of Hell in the Bible (original languages that is), as it is commonly known as in the world.

I would say after reading through both the original and this thread the "no eternal suffering for the unbeliever" crowd seems to have the better argument. The subject will still require much studying for me, as there are some verses that leaves the question open.

One challenge I believe that the "Pro-Hell" crowd should address is to start from scratch and provide evidence from Scripture and Scripture alone that provides enough proof that the Bible clearly defines "Hell" as the world knows it today. Most of the arguments for eternal suffering seem to provide some verses that could possible go along with the already constructed pagan notion of Hell, but can an argument for "Hell" be clearly built up and thoroughly defined from Scripture alone?

Keep in mind the word "Hell" does not exist in the original languages and that any verses provided need to be reviewed in the original languages.

Normally I do not believe Christian Brothers and Sisters should make a big fuss over so-called "issues" but I believe this is an important issue.
 
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Rajni

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Howdy, I became interested in this question after I realized there is no real mention/definition of Hell in the Bible (original languages that is), as it is commonly known as in the world.

I would say after reading through both the original and this thread the "no eternal suffering for the unbeliever" crowd seems to have the better argument. The subject will still require much studying for me, as there are some verses that leaves the question open.

One challenge I believe that the "Pro-Hell" crowd should address is to start from scratch and provide evidence from Scripture and Scripture alone that provides enough proof that the Bible clearly defines "Hell" as the world knows it today. Most of the arguments for eternal suffering seem to provide some verses that could possible go along with the already constructed pagan notion of Hell, but can an argument for "Hell" be clearly built up and thoroughly defined from Scripture alone?

Keep in mind the word "Hell" does not exist in the original languages and that any verses provided need to be reviewed in the original languages.

Normally I do not believe Christian Brothers and Sisters should make a big fuss over so-called "issues" but I believe this is an important issue.
Great point, Sb81. Sure got quiet after this post, lol!
 
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Der Alte

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Why is that? Doesn't the Bible clearly state that the wages of sin is death? (not hell)

The scripture you are referring to does say "the wages of sin is death" but it does not say "(not hell)!" That is opinion, commentary!

And while it is true that the wages of sin is death, scripture also says "It is appointed unto men once to die after that the judgment."
 
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Der Alte

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Howdy, I became interested in this question after I realized there is no real mention/definition of Hell in the Bible (original languages that is), as it is commonly known as in the world.

I would say after reading through both the original and this thread the "no eternal suffering for the unbeliever" crowd seems to have the better argument. The subject will still require much studying for me, as there are some verses that leaves the question open.

One challenge I believe that the "Pro-Hell" crowd should address is to start from scratch and provide evidence from Scripture and Scripture alone that provides enough proof that the Bible clearly defines "Hell" as the world knows it today. Most of the arguments for eternal suffering seem to provide some verses that could possible go along with the already constructed pagan notion of Hell, but can an argument for "Hell" be clearly built up and thoroughly defined from Scripture alone?

Keep in mind the word "Hell" does not exist in the original languages and that any verses provided need to be reviewed in the original languages.

Normally I do not believe Christian Brothers and Sisters should make a big fuss over so-called "issues" but I believe this is an important issue.

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post the early church and eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel at the time of Jesus on eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post Lazarus and the rich man. Link!
 
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agape101

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The scripture you are referring to does say "the wages of sin is death" but it does not say "(not hell)!" That is opinion, commentary!

And while it is true that the wages of sin is death, scripture also says "It is appointed unto men once to die after that the judgment."



I looked up "judgment" in the dictionary and I couldn't find where it says: Judgment = unending torture...
 
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agape101

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Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Gehenna; not "hell'. and Jesus never utters the words "eternal or punishment."

Previous post, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Who cares?

Previous post the early church and eternal punishment. Click Link!

Who cares? consensus opinion does not equal truth

Previous post citing the Talmud the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel at the time of Jesus on eternal punishment. Click Link!


Previous post Lazarus and the rich man. Link!


Why do we care what the Jewish or Christian orthodoxy holds to be true? Who had Jesus killed? Why do i care what jewish scholars interpret? I don't care. they got it wrong with Jesus and they had him killed. And Christian orthodoxy is no better. Just traditions of men.... I don't think they have bad intent, just think the pool is tainted from the get go when it comes to man's involvement.

what happens when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire?
 
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