There is no hell. (2)

[Der Alte]

Meaningless generality. They didn't need any since they spoke both Hebrew and Greek. Do you? When someone starts saying, "Well the original Greek (or Hebrew) for this word means 'such and such.'" Will you know the difference or will you just drink the koolaid?

I wasn't replying to you. I'm not concerned with what you think Der Alter.

You know that is probably very close to what many of Jim Jones followers told their friends and relatives before they drank the koolaid.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God belongs to little children and those who are as such. When did they get around to accumulating the credentials of a theology scholar?

Please see my reply to Heavensprings.

Meaningless generality. They didn't need any since they spoke both Hebrew and Greek. Do you? When someone starts saying, "Well the original Greek (or Hebrew) for this word means 'such and such.'" Will you know the difference or will you just [obediently] drink the koolaid?

 

[angelmom01]

You still don't get it. You implied that many people had to rely on various translations/versions because they did not have access to Greek and Hebrew resources. I showed that is not the case.

For someone who keeps accusing everyone else of misunderstand him and twisting around what he says, you sure don't read very carefully yourself. Yet again, that is NOT what I said, so then your response was made based on your own misunderstanding and not on what I actually said. No wonder I didn't know what you were trying to say.

Because what I actually said was based on you asking your wife, who you said speaks another language; I also acknowledge that those who do not have such a luxury DO HAVE the used of Bible translations AND many of the same (other) study aides that YOU do. Here is what I actually said:

And of course anyone who disagrees with you, obviously, hasn't done that? And the fact that the Bible has been translated into other languages so that those of other languages, who might not have access to Hebrew and Greek speaking people, is of no consequence? And the fact that others may also use the same Lexicons and Concordances (etc) that you yourself use to aid them in their limited understanding of the "original" text is never going to quite measure up to your "expert" use of the same so long as they come to a different conclusion than you have? Is that it?

So I implied no such thing as what you are accusing me.

Wait what was that you said to me? Oh yes.

Seems you thought wrong though.

Absolutely irrelevant to my comment which I repeat here. "It is not about "most churches" it is about virtually no churches teaching many of the beliefs being proposed here."


One should not start what they can't finish!

Cannot finish? We are going around IN CIRCLES! And barely even discussing the topic anymore. You think you are accomplishing something here? One need not waste their time speaking to those who cannot even hear them, especially when then this absolutely zero respect involved. There comes a point when they must dust the sand from their feet AND MOVE ON.

 

[angelmom01]

Meaningless generality. They didn't need any since they spoke both Hebrew and Greek. Do you? When someone starts saying, "Well the original Greek (or Hebrew) for this word means 'such and such.'" Will you know the difference or will you just drink the koolaid?

They might not have needed an encyclopedia or Concordance to read the scripture or to understand what they said in the LITERAL sense, but they sure needed the Holy Spirit to understand SPIRITUAL TRUTH.

1Co 2:9-14 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
​

So if they who KNEW THE LANGUAGE so intimately and needed not be bothered with dictionaries and concordances and various translations and translators COULD NOT UNDERSTAND the things of God apart from THE SPIRIT OF GOD revealing it to them, what do you think makes you so special just because you "studied" THE LANGUAGE? So you can "read" it. Good!! Great, in fact!

But that, my friend, is only one hurdle; just the beginning, in fact. And it gives you no more of an advantage than anyone else who can't read or speak Greek or Hebrew, but who ALSO has to rely ON THE HOLY SPIRIT for understanding.

God has made the playing field LEVEL!! It is not about OUR "abilities"; it is about HIS!!

 

[Rajni]

Please see my reply to Heavensprings:

"Meaningless generality. They didn't need any since they spoke both Hebrew and Greek. Do you? When someone starts saying, "Well the original Greek (or Hebrew) for this word means 'such and such.'" Will you know the difference or will you just drink the koolaid?"​

If one has been involved in theological discussion and debate long enough, one comes to realize that it's not a question of drinking or not drinking "the koolaid" but rather whose brand of koolaid one would prefer to see others drinking.






.

 

[Der Alte]

For someone who keeps accusing everyone else of misunderstand him and twisting around what he says, you sure don't read very carefully yourself. Yet again, that is NOT what I said, so then your response was made based on your own misunderstanding and not on what I actually said. No wonder I didn't know what you were trying to say.

Because what I actually said was based on you asking your wife, who you said speaks another language; I also acknowledge that those who do not have such a luxury DO HAVE the used of Bible translations AND many of the same (other) study aides that YOU do. Here is what I actually said:

And the fact that the Bible has been translated into other languages so that those of other languages, who might not have access to Hebrew and Greek speaking people, is of no consequence? And the fact that others may also use the same Lexicons and Concordances (etc) that you yourself use to aid them in their limited understanding of the "original" text is never going to quite measure up to your "expert" use of the same so long as they come to a different conclusion than you have? Is that it?

So I implied no such thing as what you are accusing me.
[ . . . ]

Still looks to me like two different groups, Group 1. "those of other languages, who might not have access to Hebrew and Greek speaking people," Group 2. "And the fact that others may also use the same Lexicons and Concordances (etc) . . ." And that someone is trying to cover up their big mistake.

 

[Der Alte]

They might not have needed an encyclopedia or Concordance to read the scripture or to understand what they said in the LITERAL sense, but they sure needed the Holy Spirit to understand SPIRITUAL TRUTH.

1Co 2:9-14 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Doesn't really address my post, does it? You might try reading what I said and replying to that instead of just throwing random scripture at me.

So if they who KNEW THE LANGUAGE so intimately and needed not be bothered with dictionaries and concordances and various translations and translators COULD NOT UNDERSTAND the things of God apart from THE SPIRIT OF GOD revealing it to them, what do you think makes you so special just because you "studied" THE LANGUAGE? So you can "read" it. Good!! Great, in fact!

Read my post I have never said or implied that I, or anyone else who has studied the languages, is any more special than anyone else. But many people are led astray when some Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. comes along telling them what the scriptures "really mean," and unfortunately most don't know the difference.

But that, my friend, is only one hurdle; just the beginning, in fact. And it gives you no more of an advantage than anyone else who can't read or speak Greek or Hebrew, but who ALSO has to rely ON THE HOLY SPIRIT for understanding.

Implying that I cannot read Greek and Hebrew and also have the holy spirit because I won't follow after your particular pied piper.

God has made the playing field LEVEL!! It is not about OUR "abilities"; it is about HIS!!

It has always been level, many people don't know it but follow after one pied piper after another saying exactly what you have said here.

 

[angelmom01]

Still looks to me like two different groups, Group 1. "those of other languages, who might not have access to Hebrew and Greek speaking people," Group 2. "And the fact that others may also use the same Lexicons and Concordances (etc) . . ." And that someone is trying to cover up their big mistake.

Believe what you want, Der Alter. It was all one thought. Perhaps you should be big enough to own your own mistakes instead of accusing others of not being able to. I have not problem admitting that I made a mistake or read something wrong. Any thorough review of my posts on this forum or any other would clearly demonstrate that as fact.

 

[angelmom01]

Doesn't really address my post, does it? You might try reading what I said and replying to that instead of just throwing random scripture at me.

Hardly random. That passage addresses the fact that spiritual truths cannot be understood by just anyone, as the natural man is not capable of understanding that which only the spirit of God can reveal, as those things are "spiritually discerned". As such, understanding does not come by one's ability "to read", but through the Holy Spirit which is given to men to teach them the truths of God, so that they can properly understand what it is they are "reading".

Read my post I have never said or implied that I, or anyone else who has studied the languages, is any more special than anyone else. But many people are led astray when some Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. comes along telling them what the scriptures "really mean," and unfortunately most don't know the difference.

Perhaps I am wrong but I believe that is exactly what you implied.

Implying that I cannot read Greek and Hebrew and also have the holy spirit because I won't follow after your particular pied piper.

I implied no such thing. I stated that being able to read the language (by birth or through study) is not a guarantee that someone can understand, on a spiritual level, what they are "reading", as being able to "read" the words doesn't mean that one has the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit (not the ability to read) is the key to understanding. Obviously Peter and Paul and the other writers of the NT had both the HS and the ability to read, as have MANY others throughout history. And MANY others have had the HS who cannot read the scriptures in either Greek or Hebrew, but have only a translation in their own native tongue. So it would be just as silly of me to claim that one excludes the other as to say that one proves the other.

It has always been level, many people don't know it but follow after one pied piper after another saying exactly what you have said here.

Care to explain how it is by your own ability that you are either saved or know the truth?

 

[Der Alte]

It has always been level, many people don't know it but follow after one pied piper after another saying exactly what you have said here.

Care to explain how it is by your own ability that you are either saved or know the truth?

Huh? How do you get, "by your own ability that you are either saved or know the truth" out of "follow after one pied piper after another saying exactly what you have said here?"

 

[angelmom01]

Huh? How do you get, "by your own ability that you are either saved or know the truth" out of "follow after one pied piper after another saying exactly what you have said here?"

How did you get:

"following after one pied piper after another saying exactly what you have said here"

Out of:


"It is not about OUR "abilities"; it is about HIS!!"

Just exactly how does anyone go "following after one pied piper after another" by trusting IN THE LORD and HIS ABILITY to teach us?

You seems to be of the opinion that to believe such a thing (to trust in the Lord and HIS ability to teach us) would cause people to go "following after one pied piper after another".

Believe what you will and accuse me of twisting what you said again, but I am done bickering with you over "every word" I say.

I suggest we get back ON TOPIC and my conversation with you on THAT SUBJECT is over, as I am apparently not allowed to voice my opinion on this subject here.

Have a great night and a Blessed and Merry Christmas.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bump

 

[Timothew]

Bump

subscribe

 

[ivebeenshown]

I think I just became Universalist

 

[Timothew]

I think I just became Universalist

How come?

 

[ivebeenshown]

How come?

Ezekiel 18
3As I live, saith YHWH, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

All souls belong to the Father. He has spoken this.

John 16
15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Jesus and the Father are one, and what one possesses so does the other. Therefore, all souls belong to Jesus.

John 6
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

I believe hell is reserved for the devil and his angels...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

I believe hell is reserved for the devil and his angels...

Could'nt angels also symbolize earthly messengers who preach a "false Gospel"

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

John 8:44 "Ye out of a father, the Devil, are, and the desires/epiqumiaV <1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.
That one a man-killer was from beginning and in the truth not has stood, that not is truth in him".

Revelation 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......... [Luke 16:24,26]

 

[ivebeenshown]

Could'nt angels also symbolize earthly messengers who preach a "false Gospel"

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

John 8:44 "Ye out of a father, the Devil, are, and the desires/epiqumiaV <1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.
That one a man-killer was from beginning and in the truth not has stood, that not is truth in him".

Revelation 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......... [Luke 16:24,26]

Maybe... I'm not totally sold on Universalism but it seems like it makes sense... but that's a discussion for the UT board.

 

[papaJP]

If you do not believe in hell you cannot believe in God or heaven. Please do not try to pick and choose what parts of the Bible you want to believe.

 

[Fireinfolding]

If you do not believe in hell you cannot believe in God or heaven. Please do not try to pick and choose what parts of the Bible you want to believe.

Heres the original thread, I think you are resaponding to the "title" and not to the content of the original post (posted over a year ago)

There is no hell. - Christian Forums